Love In The Light

If I could get sponsored by Black Rifle coffee, I really just want the coffee. I don't even need the money because I I'm not I'm not super into guns like I can use a gun if I have to I have training and a background and all that But I don't own them. I'm not not really my scene So I don't care about my black rifle coffee sponsorship, but but if I don't get my Sponsorship from Casper mattress. I'm gonna wind up sleeping on the floor for the rest of my life So we really gotta focus on that. Yeah. Yeah, I'm I'm a very similar type of like product Oriented if I ever got sponsored, I would literally only want to do it for like here. Give me some stuff you do you have? Do you have like a podcast or a YouTube channel of your own or anything where you might be able to Get sponsorships eventually. had a podcast That I did for a little bit. So I had a project at like the start of the pandemic Called breaking the frame and I Had a podcast that was associated with it, but I have not continued that I don't have a YouTube channel, but that's kind of something that's been on my list I'm thinking about doing like some education stuff. I was actually talking about it on Twitter the other day Doing like twitch streams showing how I'm Creating like AI based tutors and things of that nature. Yeah, I think I I think I saw you Posting like oh, is this is this what we should be using twitch for guys because I saw yeah Like a lot of people were kind of comparing notes on like what they've been building and and stuff like that Yeah, so what is your build environment look like for you? Are you in like an IDE or mostly just like in the terminal or where do you where do you play around with it the most? So I started with doing it mostly in VS code Because I like to be able to see the files that you know, it was spitting out And then as I got more comfortable and started different use cases I I use the terminal and then now I just set up This is like it happened like two days ago and now I'm going wild with it Yeah, I set up tail scale on my machines and I have a terminal app on my phone Okay, and so I was using that Yeah, there's some rendering issues sometimes and so now I start start the terminal session from the terminal app, then I go to the remote control on the Claude app Yeah, okay But I also set up another thing so I set up so that the Mac reminders app at the start of every session Claude reads that in Okay through event kit Okay, so it has like all of the reminders. I'm almost using reminders as like this repository of like of Things I want to remember or things for Claude to process for example because it's created this whole life tracker thing Yeah, and so I'm now using my reminders app as an interface that gets pulled directly in the context it's kind of all over the place But yeah, I'm like VS code terminal terminal app on my phone That's connected via tail scale and then reminders app Okay Yep, cool. Is there something I'm missing? What's what's like hot on? well, so I mean what My setup is pretty I so I never bothered with VS code or anything because I can't I never I never learned my way. You know, I never learned how to code my way into a bag much less anything else. So um So an IDE never really mattered to me because you know, like I can't I can't fix a broken loop anyway. So what the hell? for me like know for a long time I just had the I just had the laptop that we're talking over right now you know, it was fun to be able to do stuff But I couldn't really like because closing the laptop and going to work and da da da da da like I didn't have the didn't have the stability the continuity that I really wanted So ultimately I wound up buying a really cheap hp pro desk that just lives in the closet Etherneted right into my cable modem and now that's That's my hub, you know, and so I just I just I I have my I have that my phone my laptop All tail scaled together. So I can just I can just team up into My I just ssh right into my box and just have it do everything from wherever I am I also built like a telegram bot and a discord bot so that I can literally just like throw a message into telegram and it's as though I was at my turn like the the Telegram bot has all the power That I would have if I was at the terminal myself So I just tell it what I wanted to do or tell it what I wanted to find And you know, I've got my entire health database. I've got you know, just Way too much stuff in there. And so it just you know, and I'm like I'm trying to build the the house of the mind for it so that It so that it constantly knows everything without overflowing context So that's that's a lot of like what I've been playing with is like Figuring out how to give it a robust memory without blowing the window and overburning tokens at the same time think a lot of us are are working on that saving. Well, so what we what I did just the other night is For all of the for like for all of the project files what it's done now is it's put like a pound pound now with just like a brief synopsis of everything That like that you if you read the rest of it you would find that so so that way you can like Load just enough context without Loading all of the context. Um, yep But yeah, I think I think I don't know, you know, the it's funny because It it has a review system where it reviews our interactions and gives me feedback And it's like dude you spend 70 of your time just focusing on the infrastructure instead of like actually building stuff And it's like, yeah, I know but every time I feel like I'm I feel like I'm so close I'm so close to just Pegging it and then I don't have to but But I don't know part of part of part of part of making it better is is is is fun in and of itself It is it's a it's a really good time And then what's gonna happen is you're filing in a crack at you're gonna nail something and then boom It's gonna be like a feature that they release well, and I don't even well, I don't I don't so I really just use the model as the engine like I don't use clod code at all anymore I I I've got clod, uh, I've got the anthropic models harnessed by omp because omp just it Claude will just get hung up on like simple bash commands and just like halt for a while while it's like Well, I forgot how to be an operator Um, but omp doesn't freeze that way at least when it does it's much less often and um And the really cool thing with omp is it like it actually in gray text It shows you its chain of reasoning as it's nice So I can just hit escape and be like no actually Do this and still like I can see what you're thinking and it's wrong and here's why and I can redirect it Before it goes off and goes off in its own direction. It's not quite aligned with my intentions. So that's nice Yeah, that's great. Yeah, I gotta check out omp. I haven't I haven't tried it out much Oh, yeah, it's it's it's definitely worth absolutely All right, well we've talked to well actually Oh, yeah, all right pause one second. I got a hand something to my wife. I'm sorry You can edit this out or leave it in whatever Sure Okay, we're good Okay, so one of the things that I did I I know that I know that I told you that I don't like to plan for these and honestly, usually I don't but But I did I did I did pull my um I pulled my bot to to to scan your account and to give me some questions to ask you Oh so so I did that and feel like this is a great kind of moment to tie into Your question like the question being So we you have a star wars piece where you say that we're skipping past a republic and we're heading right into the empire Right and obviously ai is a big part of that. So, uh, what what would you what would you share with? You know anybody about about your thoughts there star wars thing is interesting to me because it kind of fell out of a a Line of thought that I was having about like, okay, assume that it's not terminator scenario assume that actual risk of ai is not that you know, it's completely misaligned with humanity let's say that it is completely aligned with humanity and It it works perfectly What does that do to the Like economic status of the individual, right when the economic relevance of a individual No longer exists because it's no longer like oh, we We trade our time and labor For money in order to procure resources that somebody else has procured Uh in a situation where we have these perfectly aligned ai is doing like models doing knowledge work and then robots doing physical labor individual is economically irrelevant. And so the star wars thing was like hold on We have this piece of fiction where the robots seem to be completely capable Of doing whatever they need to in fact they a lot of them have like restraining bolts that you know Like hamper their ability to do certain things. So they they're clearly very capable. Yeah, and yet you still have a An economy that's running on a lot of human labor a lot of credits like why why Why do you have shopkeepers that then have droids to do the repairs and stuff like what is What is that human doing there? Why Why are they still working? Right it's kind of fascinating and so I I think that that piece if I remember correctly I kind of plugged that whole line of thought into claud and I said what do you think about this and I think that it kind of Skirted around the topic and I kind of just included that as a Fun little, you know, like what does the ai have to say about this? I didn't spend much time editing it to Actually make it make much sense um, so in terms of skipping like right to the empire Like the empire to me doesn't make sense in that scenario either, right? Like Why why do you have all of these people sitting at the command desk for the death star? Why why were there so many people on the death star? I think is one of the things like Didn't they say it's some insane number of people that died when they blew up the death star? Like a massive number of people. It's like, why were they there? That doesn't make sense to me You have these super capable robots and it's fully staffed out with human beings Yeah, so that's that's kind of the chain of thought that I was going through. Yeah When so in there there was somewhere in here I think you talked about and this is this is this is a line of reasoning that that I have I've had for a very long time I think honestly, I've had this even since before, you know, like the rise of chat gpt which is that like real concern, you know, people talk about, you know, runaway intelligence and and all of this stuff and and I think that, you know, like Win Slash if we actually achieve ASI We're more than likely going to be safer than ever, but it's the in the meantime where you have a hyper competent general AIs that are Owned by states that are controlled by by state actors with military goals And that's where we live in a very dangerous world where, you know, the us and china or russia or whatever, you know Like where like the drone swarms and things start getting like really Really tense for for quite a while, you know Yeah, and uh, you know, we have a select few number of individuals who could possibly Using their resources either produce or procure their own defense systems that Like in the other piece the companion piece to the star wars thing That kind of prompted in the first place. I kind of imagined a scenario I'm not saying that I think this is what is going to happen, but I imagined a scenario where the world has kind of been whittled down to only those people that were able to establish their own Uh individual defense systems That protected them possibly from state actors from from things of that nature And they have the they have their robot army They have their robot workforce that goes out procures resources for them And does it look something, you know, almost like, uh a reversion to Biblical Like lineages where it's like I have this giant family And basically the only people who are alive on earth are the people in my family and the people in these rival families Who right, you know, but we don't really have to fight that much either because We're there's so few people Yeah, that you know, it's like do I need more space not necessarily, right? And so I definitely I definitely think that, you know, a very plausible outcome Is that we wind up in a very fractured world where you know, like In certain places there may be like Corpo communes and state communes and actual just like hippies with crystals talking to aliens com like we could wind up with like 30 different You know civilizations that are all just like tiny little shards left over from like projects that had been started and not destroyed by humanity before don't know whatever whatever, you know, radical change may come which actually which Which I might even phrase is the breaking of the dam Yeah, yeah, okay. So do you want to hear the damn piece? Yeah, so like a snow crash. Have you read snow crash? know, I have but it's been a very long time have the corpo communes and snow crash like basically the the world has kind of been divided into these different like Corporate owned Uh like Campus the only word is subdivision. Yeah, like I was gonna say subdivision the Spanish word was coming to mind for me But like, you know self contained corporate subdivisions where like the only whole area The places that people live the shops that are involved there And like only certain people have access to it. So yeah, that's interesting yeah, you want to talk about the damn piece I want to talk about the damn because I feel like I feel like you you like what in in the piece you say, you know, like most people just don't want to talk about the dam And I'm here for it. Talk about the damn the dam So, yeah, that piece came from A lot of different lines of thought um but primarily like my I'm just like completed my first year of marriage uh, I've been with my wife for Now five years. So four years of dating in one year of marriage And it's just interesting when you come like so Close to someone else Especially especially with me, you know, uh, I married somebody from a different culture But I don't even think that matters that much because like my you know, my brother married his high school sweetheart They both grew up in the same place, but they grew up in different families and their culture is different, right And so I was talking to her about like kind of my orientation towards towards life and the things That I like to think about with regards to life The things I notice and contrasting that with kind of her approach and also a lot of The people that I've met throughout my life, right? I've kind of always had this reputation as somebody who you know Maybe he's talking about things that are too serious at the party or I guess that's are you the guy in the quarter these people just don't know Yeah, I'm kind of like that guy except for that that guy like is a wallflower and instead I'm like Out on the dance floor like so what do you guys think about AI? You know like that kind of a thing and they're like dude, we're dancing This is a dance club or a dance party and you're trying to talk to us about existential things, right? Yeah, and so the analogy from the piece is that like Imagine that we live in a town And that that town is protected by some dam It obviously needs upkeep and maintenance and sometimes there's issues and You know, maybe there's funding issues for specific things. It's on and so forth Basically the dam could potentially be at risk, right? But the town is super nice and everybody in the town is kind of enjoying their lives and they all have their little Their specializations not little. I'm not trying to be diminutive Right and everybody gathers in the cafe and they talk about you know Their lives and they talk about how good the coffee is they play games and things of that nature then you got me and I show up and I'm like, hey, have you guys checked out the dam lately? Yeah, right the dam could be anything. It's not just like large like Human scale problems with society or whatever, you know in my personal relationships It could be like Hey, could we break down this interaction that we had kind of a thing? Uh that people are seem to be flowing kind of more just with life than I am and so Yeah, that's that's what the piece was about and And kind of my feelings around that so yeah What what do you think it is? do you think it is in you that? Like where where do you think that this comes from like the the concern like the the feel like, you know, like there's elements of like obviously with the dam there's the holding There's the control and then for you specifically like there's the the concern about like know, how do we safely keep everything held? Yeah, I think that that's one of the keywords. There's there's a lot of different ways that I could look at this, right? could frame it as like a Lack of a feeling of safety Is one of the things within the context of life You know, there are a wide variety of things that I've experienced that maybe have Convinced me on some sort of a sub subconscious level that I'm not safe Right and so from that frame it could be neuroses and maybe people are just reacting to the the neurosis then when I apply logic to it, you know, and this is what I kind of do in the piece. It's like These things actually matter Right. It's I can also look at it from the angle of it's not just my neurosis It's not just that uh, I feel unsafe. There are there are real dangers out there. There are real threats know oftentimes we hear about especially in marriages people who had problems that went undiscussed for years And then they blew up and then the marriage was over, right? Yeah, and so from that perspective it's like, okay Are all of these people who are existing in this This felt sense of safety. Is it a false sense of safety? Are they just ignoring the problems? Is it dependent on their sense of safety in the world dependent on their ability to ignore the problems, right? Like I want to enjoy the coffee in the cafe with everybody as much as the next guy, right? and and I totally want to do that and I after I go to the cafe for the hundredth time in a row And talk about the weather Which I love to do. I really do. I actually have this experience. Okay, like I go to Nicaragua every year I I stay in a co-living that was started by my friend And there's a cafe right there Everybody from the community comes we play chess. We just we actually do discuss philosophy there But there's a lot of people who just want to talk about the waves they caught recently Things of that nature and it's very enjoyable. I love it. I love it. Yeah, and For example, that community is changing fairly significantly, right? Like there's a lot of people moving in new buildings being bought The there's a lot more tourists the vibe in the water is changing in terms of serve So on and so forth and it's like We could ostrich and just shove our heads in the sand Or maybe in the cafe. That's a nice like low stakes environment where we could talk about things That affect us as individuals affect the community things, you know of concern With light. Yeah, and I think that Yeah, I've just been seen as somebody who brings up the things of concern more than is desirable Uh Which is interesting to me and All of that so just to tie that back to something all of that was piggybacking off of One day I was just walking around and I had this idea adopt a pessimist because there's a lot of like Optimists in our I see a lot of optimism in our community on twitter. Okay, sure there's a lot of people who are very optimistic And I also see And possibly rightfully so I understand why people want to protect their space and stuff, but I also see a bit of Clickiness amongst the optimists and a bit of ostrich is an ostracization Of some of the more pessimistic thinkers Uh, and so it's like They're protecting the vibes and They're also not necessarily Like helping the The overall environment Yeah Apart from putting out their own positive vibes, which I appreciate and think is great, right? but it's like we how much do you engage? how much is appropriate to engage with somebody who's being pessimistic as an optimist, right? So do you consider do you consider yourself to be more of a pessimist than an optimist? do consider myself to be more of a pessimist. I'm not a cynic This is this was the next thing that happened. So okay, I posted this piece adopted a pessimist Matt Kramer one of my friends great guy on twitter. Yeah, he Shared one of his pieces about how to be less cynical Hmm. I noticed some distinctions between my kind of brand of pessimism and his cynicism uh in the piece and one of those distinctions was that uh cynics, I think oftentimes Think that everything is pointless life is worthless. It's kind of more of a nihilistic uh viewpoint Yeah, exactly Exactly Whereas myself, I think that everything is One of the phrases I use is excruciatingly meaningful, right? Everything matters. Yeah, and There's a lot of problems There's a lot of risks and I tend to hyper focus on the risks and the problems More than I do on the the positive aspects. And so that's a thing that I actively want to increase my capacity to notice Baskin And and reflect on the the positive aspects of things So I think that that's kind of one of the things that maybe the optimists in the scene could Uh try to recognize is is there A pessimist who actually seems like they are trying to be optimistic or want to be more optimistic Right And is there a way to support that? Uh versus the people who are like Know your optimism is stupid And you know like you guys are just seeing the world through rose-colored glasses And you're all wrong and bad because I understand that's It's not something that you need to or are going to benefit from engaging with necessarily Yeah, it's not like a constructive frame. It doesn't it doesn't help anything. Yeah, exactly Yeah, and so Kramer and I went back and forth a little bit like I think we did one round of Like feedback. I said, you know, he gave me that piece. I said here's Some things like from my experience as a pessimist things that in your piece that I actually can do and aspects of my Like capacity for optimism that seem to have atrophied for example, and I made that analogy that like we use the brain as a muscle analogy, right Whatever we frequently think and dwell upon becomes the inclination of the mind and if we focused on risk and problems for a really long time our ability to Like call forth awe that was one of the Matt Kramer's suggestions was like, you know notice the things around you And bask in the awe of those things and I was like find it difficult. I will literally do a practice if I'll sit down and I'll look around and try to things Find things that are awful Right like uh full of awe Yeah full of awe inspiring Yeah, all sometimes I'll just come up short and I'll just sit there and it'll be either a very neutral experience or whatever, right? And I think that's where the whole adoptive pessimist thing comes in is like you need a spotter Literally somebody to spot and point out like hey, look at this thing if you frame it in this way Like can you try to practice framing it in this way? Yeah, can that be A thing that fills you with awe Right. Yeah Can I adopt a pessimist for a while? Yeah, are you an optimist? Well, actually I wanted to ask um how From your personal perspective, you know, like you've mentioned in like our community on x twitter, whatever you want to call it these days do you perceive me as a member of the community because I I don't really you know I don't really know how I'm perceived by others And I I I to a certain extent I feel like I kind of go out of my way not to really be taken too seriously So like for you as a person, how do you see me as a poster or reply guy or whatever? like this because I posted this also on twitter and you had a very funny reply To to mind do you remember this? Uh, not not immediately. No said like how do I show up here? And he said somebody who wants to collaborate but not with me Laughed at that. was very funny. Yeah, interesting. I wonder what made me come off that way. So for you uh One of the things I notice is that there's a lot of uh Posts that I have as I've interacted with you I've come to understand them as humor And at first I did not understand them as humor, right? Yeah Some of them felt uh, kind of kiki I'll say Right like a little spiky. Yeah, um, which I'm totally cool with and I think that that's you know We've endured because of that and I Uh, and I now see oh, this is luke. He's making a joke and I understand Now what the joke is and where it's coming from and I'm like I could totally read this as serious And if I did read it as serious, I would be like What's this guy? You know like What's this guy saying? Yeah, and so that's kind of the primary thing Sometimes I'll read your replies for example And I'll look and I'll immediately think like oh man I wonder if the person that he's replying to Took this as a joke or took it as serious and if they took it seriously were they offended where they you know annoyed What's going on? right this is the thing I'll say about me. Okay have a lot of uh humility about my own ability to interpret Uh interpret things so like I've had to I've been forced In my job sometimes to act in a marketing capacity or in a like to evaluate marketing Yeah, and I am so consistently wrong In my estimation of how other people are going to receive things this goes back to the damn conversation as well. Yeah, okay I'm consistently wrong in my estimation of how people are going to perceive things And I see that continues to play out on twitter When I'll I'll like I'll see you replied. I'll click into the reply. I'll see Okay, let's test it again. How did this person respond to this thing? Was my initial read of the thing the same as the person? And and I'm fairly consistently wrong. Okay Because what's the directionality of your of your of your incorrectness, would you say? That typically I think is more more spiky or Aggressive than how it's perceived is what I would say. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, and that has significant as I've Interacted with you and as I've seen oh like this is this type How do I say this like if you spend enough time with a person? Yeah, and you see like oh they make dry remarks But they're all jokes the first time they make a dry remark you might think know like were they being serious? But then later on you know, no, this is just you know their style of humor And and they're not being serious. So yeah, I would generally say that I perceived it as More aggressive than how others did and I've softened in that view as I as I watch it know watch yeah, I feel like there's there's a certain element where you know Like I'm the guy at the bar that's just slapping you on the back saying hey, man Don't take yourself so seriously. You know or like you're fucking wrong and here's why it's funny You know that kind of thing. Um, yep How does that feel like how does it being perceived? Oh I don't know it feels good. It reads it reads true to me like it reads true to know whether whether it's with like an extreme level of intentionality or not, you know, like it is It is the way that I perform in this public square and and I like it. I like being able to enjoy the feeling of cleverness that comes with my sort of cryptic way of communicating like want people to know. Yes Yeah I want people to know that I know what's up, but I also don't want to be one of those like earnest posting essay writing Like no, I don't I don't want you to evaluate me as a serious thinker. I don't want you to Feel like I have influence I want to just like poke little holes that make you scratch your chin and think about where you're coming from And kind of ultimately forget about me because it's not you know, like don't I don't I don't want people to Estimate me honestly, like yeah, really I feel like the the the power in being Underestimated or over, you know, like yeah, I just I I kind of you know Like I kind of want to disappear into the background a lot of the times But but I still want to you know engage in the conversation so Um engaging in the conversation adopting the pessimists. Let's talk about the dam So I wrote I wrote a book. I wrote a book years back that I think three people have ever read and it one of the lines is because it's mostly like aphorisms and things Put away the umbrella and nobody gets hurt Okay Put away the umbrella and nobody gets hurt Yeah, and so because the reason why Right, and like this ties directly into the dam, but first so it's always raining got to get that right like it is It's always raining and and that rain is like the grace the love the goodness the purity of life The the the things that there are to be in awe of like, you know Like if you want to talk about like how am I supposed to like the fact that your mother carried you to turn even if she abandoned you as as an infant like the fact that she'd let you come to live On this earth is Is amazing. It's incredible. You know like all of the tiny little thing like the way that the the truck brought the papayas to the market you know just like All of the things in the world like you know if we if we really sat and considered the things that we have to be Grateful for we'd run out of time in the day If we really look deeply into each chain of causality that brought goodness to our lives And and so so the thing is right is like we built this dam Because we were afraid that we were going to run out of water We need this reservoir because otherwise One day like that that that that that fearful voice creeps in and says one day there might not be enough And so then we build the dam and then we create water shortages downstream and blah blah blah And now we have to worry about the cracks and all of these things And the reality is is that if you just put the umbrella away you just stop trying to control everything You're in it like it's already there you don't have to take out your umbrella to go to the pool You can just swim in the life that you live, you know That resonates a lot with me very much Just one one point of clarification in my dam analogy. The town is built in the shadow of the dam Yeah, we do we definitely do that we built we built the town in the shadow of the dam But the thing is is that before the dam was there there may have been a village on the riverbank now there's a town and now the town is you know like yeah like Actions have consequences and the consequence of building a dam is the one hand you create a sense of safety and abundance and on the other hand you create a massive risk Yes, and so my my my angle is like hey now that you I've identified the risk profile of this behavior Maybe next time don't go building a dam or yeah Maybe instead of having to worry about how do we maintain a structure that really can't last forever have to plan on how do we evacuate the town? Disassemble the dam safely and then rebuild after like because ultimately like yeah Like we live in a world and in a in a literal world full of dams where we have we have halted the flow of nature In such a way that at some point like the infrastructure is going to collapse and we're going to have to recover from that collapse hopefully, you know, we we we learn lessons along the way of like how to safely deconstruct all of these things that we thought that we needed how to avoid know returning to those same kinds of fear-based constructions that kind of thing, you know This uh, this resonates with me a lot My handle is ascetic shadow. I've lived in various Various levels of asceticism Throughout my adult life um starting first with living in a like I was working like a successful corporate job And I started doing comedy and uh When I did that I decided I wanted to live like a comedian. I moved in with some comedians to just a A terrible house Really it looked like a cracker. It was exactly like that. It looked exactly like that me and so Then I went from there and I lived off the back of my motorcycle for six weeks And did a trip across the u.s. Uh, like from around from chicago or around lake michigan and then over to colorado I started doing meditation retreats Uh, and then at some point I decided that I wanted to try to be a buddhist monk Okay, and my kind of my line of thinking Did you shave your head put on robes? I didn't just put on robes or shave my head and I'll get to that part of the story why that happened uh later but My thinking was similar to yours Uh To well, not necessarily that that's the only way that you should think but that framing specifically was There's all of this artifice that we've put up And it seems to me like when I've completely simplified my life like I have a way to move I have a way to eat and I have a way to sleep and that's all I have Right, uh, and I have resources to get more food and things of that nature, but I'm not like everything that I have Uh, I can put on the back of my motorcycle. I could take off whenever I want Yeah, and I looked at all the artifice that we built up we as individuals build up in our lives and I saw that it it wasn't gaining me that much In terms of happiness in terms of well-being. Oh, yeah, it was actually obstructing My ability to notice a lot of the you know blessings And in order to maintain that artifice. I was trading a lot of time Right time that forced me forced my mind into a particular shape forced me to do Activities during times when maybe it wasn't beneficial for me Because the work needed to get done in order to maintain the artifice And so I thought to myself what if I tear all of this artifice down and I uh I just go and you know live as simply as I possibly can and only build up the things I need in order to sustain myself then at some point, uh, it's kind of interesting. I think that what happened was Uh took a crazy dose of acid. Okay There's this french neo shaman and this island in Mexico he gave me from a dropper this this, uh drop of acid And I whiteed out for like two hours And then uh came to a bunch of This is just one drop Who knows that's the thing with the dropper. Maybe he gave me three Right. I didn't see the drop. He put it directly on my tongue. Yeah, uh So it could have been three drops. I'm not sure but you know all he could say sorry So you white it out. Yeah, I white it out. He said it's very clean. It's very pure very pure I'm like, okay, man so then As I came down from the trip And I was standing on the beach and I was watching the sunset and watching the waves and I just got this like voice in my head telling me like That I gotta build I gotta build stuff. I gotta build something. Okay And that like I needed to get married And all of these things and it wasn't like a society's voice telling me do the normie path do the thing it was like it just activated this Uh fire inside of me to to start building Like the life that I wanted and to put up more artifice and to find think that where I've landed is that unexamined consumerism all of the things that we build in order to enable that like I was born into it, right? Yeah, and so I it was the water I was swimming in And it took me completely removing myself from that context Seeing that I could be okay seeing that like I could be happy with the bare minimum then looking and saying now why might I actually want to add more, right? Because that was a totally unexamined thing beforehand For me growing up. It was like why because that's what people do. That's the world that we live in, right? You get a job all the following stuff. Yeah, exactly the normie path and so now mean, dude, I just moved to this house. I now have This is this is a huge shift. You're talking to me right now My context has changed massively just in the last Like week. Yeah never had a yard before I have a jacuzzi now Right. Yeah. Are you gonna do some gardening? Yeah, I'm gonna do some gardening and stuff And already like I had to buy a car You know, you know, we I'm buying stuff to like I'm buying a lot of stuff. Yeah, I'm building. I'm building out my house my home The life that I want, but I'm doing in a very different like way than I did before uh and so Kind of I want to go back this time do it again Now with feeling kind of exactly exactly it again, but this time with feeling that's exactly what's going on. Okay, and so I posted about this Fairly recently, but when we're talking about the dam Uh Being like civilization Okay, and all of the infrastructure that we've put up in order to make certain things possible Uh, I Have a very different perspective on that now having lived in multiple what would be considered third world countries Uh, if you want to label them that way where They have not invested very much in the infrastructure Uh And a lot of things are much much harder to do Than they are in the united states. So in the united states, you have this almost Basically right now with all of the technology that is possible. The united states is the most frictionless place I've ever been To go and actually try to do something right Uh It's a great place for what's that? I said it's a great place for doers. It's a great place for doers. Okay Uh, that being said in mexico, for example, it's a lot easier to build a house It's a lot easier to start a business. You literally just set up shop You're not going to have inspectors coming and shutting you down Uh, those kinds of things but in terms of like, how do you get them? How do you procure the materials for your house? How do you how do you get the stuff that you need in order to start your business? That infrastructure here Is is very difficult to navigate Uh, you have to really have to be comfortable with island time, right for sure for sure And not just that you have to be comfortable paying 14 interest rates for a home loan for example, right? Because of the way that the society is because of you know The the governmental policies the people their likelihood to pay things back the economy all those things You have like insane borrowing costs Makes it very hard We're living in the United yeah, but yeah from your perspective as an american. Yes, but yes The american experience is insane like we live in a no interest world because We're financing everything at the point of gun Using other people's barrels of oil like this. We we live in an artificial reality With these hyper low interest rates and things, you know, you're you're absolutely correct that it is like hyper low interest rates and we see do I say this like I think that we see what happens with people for example try to build a business on a credit card, right? And how difficult that is when you get in at like those to me when I say high interest rates, I'm not talking relative to the united states I'm talking about relative to if you're trying to start a business for example, right? Yeah, yeah If you're trying to start a business and you get in To a loan at that interest rate the amount that you have to make off of whatever activity that you're doing Is increased significantly, right? And depending on how fast you're going to be able to pay it off It could be exponential that over the life of that business at some point You're going to have to ramp exponentially to cover the compound interest on the loan that you took out That's going up at you know, like in the teens it already becomes extremely difficult I think to take risks as a business owner and so When i'm talking about it that that's kind of my point of reference is I always think about things in terms of like if I wanted to procure capital to do something That might actually Build infrastructure that might improve society. How easy would it be for me to get that capital? And you know, what sort of return would I have to make and could this this goes back to the ai thing too? because Are there consumers with enough? monetary resources to pay for my goods or services to actually service my debt, right? and so In the ai situation where you have these like if we get to human level competence ai in terms of physical labor and or knowledge work Right, you might already be there with knowledge work. That's not the path. I'm going down, but We're gonna have this situation where they're producing things that there's not a consumer base to purchase Right. Yeah, the people don't have jobs because the jobs that they had was for producing the things And now ai and robots are producing the things And so who do they produce the things for it? Right? It's kind of a similar situation in a developing economy where you don't have this consumer base of like middle-class people Uh with uh disposable income And so the things that you would build either have to be like government supported Or they have to be some sort of philanthropic philanthrop know the word i'm going for yeah, yeah, okay project Because the consumer base is not there to actually pay for the goods or services to service the high debt That is high because when people start businesses There's not the consumer base. And so they don't pay it back Right one of the reasons that it's high because if everybody was paying their loans back you could you know more people would enter the the loan market and at least according to classical economics, you know, like You they're probably some economists listening to this. Hopefully These guys are idiots. There's an economist listening to my podcast. Oh my goodness. Thank you so much Don't forget to buy some black rifle coffee. Um don't buy it for your friends because they probably don't want it and that's a waste of resources. Um, no, um So have a couple a couple of thoughts a couple of things to so what I wrote I wrote a little uh a Friend of mine was sharing podcast With me where you know like one of the segments they were talking about like the current state of the ai bubble and and all of that kind of stuff and uh And I I I wound up like replying to her and then also kind of turning my reply into a little stubsack post I called, you know, like how to stop worrying and love the machine god Because like my perspective on it like talking about these things economically and everything is that um ai bubble is what the dot-com bubble was is what the You know, like the train speculation bubble was, you know, like all like This is building infrastructure. Like there's there's a lot of hype and there's a lot of you know There's a lot. There's a lot. There's a lot of fake money Floating around in the market and you know like and for for us right now It's advantageous that we have all of this fake bubble money flowing around because Most of the rest of the economy has lost its steam And so like everybody's kind of like just kind of being dragged along by the sales of ai speculation What we wind up with at the end of this is, you know, we may have have a crash cycle But what we wind up with this at the end is we wind up with just like ubiquitous intelligence We just like the compute behind reasoning just becomes a commodity that's as inexpensive as electricity, you know, like everyone will just be able to like Have on-demand high-level reasoning to assist them with whatever they want and and and and and for me this like I feel like feel like this revolution of reasoning is akin to You know, like the way people talk about the Gutenberg press And this is going to do To I feel like I feel like this is going to do to capitalism What the printing press did to the church? It's not going to destroy it But it's going to democratize it radically alter it Make it more freely available for the average person While at the same time like, you know, like the institution will not like the institution of capitalism won't die, but it won't be It won't be like just like an all all controlling like god of of access the way that it has been Like way more grassroots stuff will be available to the people that are spunky enough to like take it into their own hands And build for themselves, you know, like like you and I like we're building shit That does things for us that we could pay somebody else 40 dollars a month to do But we don't want to we want to like explore our own way of doing it Not not everybody out there is is so intrinsically motivated or or natively curious or whatever Like that's like having this kind of reasoning on hand It favors the people who have high curiosity high openness and and the people who just like go along to get along You know, they'll find they'll find they'll find the niche that that meets their minimum demands and just live in the comfort that they that they want, um yeah, I don't know. I think that like When it comes to capital and interest and sustainability think I think a lot of the times like thing that's being built Even if it's not sustainable It's still it still gives you It still gives you that in-the-moment activity It gives you the opportunity to sell that taco or to make that t-shirt or or whatever and Even if in the end it's all a wash like you and your family were fed From the fruits of the effort in that time, you know, and like that's That's really all like let the damn crumble Let let let the river rush it away eventually in the meantime. Let's enjoy the energy that comes off of it and and and and you know and and like Man, isn't the great weather here at the cafe? Indeed indeed I have a I have a lot of thoughts about all the things that you just said, uh, okay. You'll if you'll entertain me. Yeah. Yeah Uh The first place I want to start is the difference between the potential difference between other like past Capitalist infrastructure projects and artificial intelligence So when we think about things like, uh, the railroads or you know building all All the factories and other like kind of watershed economic development moments throughout history Uh, including the printing press I I touch on this in the the piece that I wrote know existential x risk is dumb Stupid, you know clickbaity piece but her title But I say basically all of those things definitely like Cost a lot of jobs. They killed a lot of jobs, right? And they all relied on human labor to Produce first off the things that were being produced producing the iron the spikes the you know wooden, uh Rails the the mining that had to happen for like, you know The stone that goes in between the The train tracks things of that nature the people who actually had to install them the train operators All of that stuff Ticket salesman everything, okay It all led to more human labor just in a different area that probably left a generation of people who were dependent on The prior economies workings behind but the next generation could capitalize on it And I wonder if that is the case for AI, uh, because I think that once we have that Uh All that compute and we have these higher capacity models And maybe we have robotics and things of that nature Does it actually at some point just really Whittle away at The need for human labor and I think a lot of people are kind of speculating that it will Uh And I don't have a strong take on on any of that necessarily. I don't know how things are going to play out Yeah But I think that it's possible Like if somebody had asked like is it possible that uh, the railways End up actually net killing jobs I would say a hundred percent no like I would have said that I think back when they were being produced if I had been if it was old timey me, right Um, but now I look at this and I think uh, it might be possible that that's the case. Okay in the meantime, think that there's another thing That you touched on in terms of the types of people who are using these tools right now in the ways that they're using them And having access to like you said like this artificial reasoning capacity Right. That is on par exceeds human level capacities right now in many areas what I think about that is that There are some people who are going to be able to Utilize that in in the meantime until you know, maybe it whittles away all of human economic relevance then there's other people who this is going to Kind of ultimately reveal they are just incapable of thinking They cannot reason well enough to get the machine to reason for them in a good way if that makes sense Like if you ask It's a curiosity thing like they don't know how to ask a question, right? Exactly If you don't know how to ask a question you don't know how to break down a problem If you don't even know how to state a problem in a way that is intelligible that actually captures You know what needs to change or or or any of that This things are not going to perform for you, right? I have this kind of model that of human thinking That I often say that is I think that a good heuristic is to assume that at any given point in time a person that you're talking to their overall life like their overall philosophy about everything in the world Incoherent inconsistent and incomplete Okay, and I think that it kind of flows like the incompleteness is that they haven't thought through that many things When you ask them to think through a novel thing Right that produces the inconsistency And then if they haven't done the job of you know going through examining their own thinking Uh in order to adjust those inconsistencies it's incoherent and so you could feasibly Like come up with something where you walk them through You start them with like a thing that they feel very strongly about They they have a very clear view on that thing and then through various steps Socratic method you get them to a place where suddenly they say something that Completely is incoherent with the first thing that they said right without any rhetorical trickery Because they actually believe literally two incompatible things And their beliefs only arise contextually right Depending on what they're being asked or or like they pattern match like oh this is this type of situation in this type of situation I believe this sort of thing. I think about this thing in this sort of way so on and so forth and I think that the The thinking machines they don't have Uh good defenses against people's own incoherent Ways of thinking about the world right right and so if you go in and you cannot make a coherent plan about How you want a thing to be and I found this in my own my own thinking I try hard at this stuff where I'm sitting there and I realize I actually don't know What I want and I actually want two things. They're completely incompatible. It can't be both Right And so what the hell do I do with this thinking machine? Right like it can't help me right, right and so I think that that was another thing that came up As you were speaking About that and and people's capacity to do this. So what does that say about? Capitalism and how capitalism is going to change right? Here I really don't have a strong opinion at all because you know in the scenario that we painted Much earlier in the conversation. It was more of a You know the people who own the compute dominate the compute and the usage of the compute to run their drone swarms And they're you know, they're robotic labor Swarms Yeah, and other people don't have access to it actually Right, like you have a drone army protecting the data center that powers the drone army Uh and the you know and the the drone laborers think that drone probably isn't even the right term here because our drones Like autonomous drone army, right? Yeah, I don't know I think This is this this might even sound silly, but I think that Over time the word drone is really just going to mostly apply to things that make that awful worrying sound Okay, it will have different terms for all the other things That's not a drone to listen to it, right? Like This is a droid. That's the drone. Can't you tell you can hear the difference? Exactly. Yep For sure. Yeah, so Could it be that that's the case or is this going to like the good, you know, the the printing press? uh Is it going to democratize our abilities to start our own companies to do novel research to uh Yeah, to do all of those things. I think right now In this very moment the answer is very clear right now is absolutely a golden age for anyone who has any sort of gumption for doing stuff their own their own projects their own learning Any self-starter out there right now? There's never been a better time to be alive in the history of humanity terms of your ability to get stuff moving like It's uh, it's really incredible. so But will that continue? You know this Well, I think it will like I think I think it'll be like a fringe thing right like the people The people that have the curiosity that have the gumption that have enough of the background, you know They'll be they'll be using like the open weighted models and standing up their own personal compute because You know as these models become, you know more and more elegant like they're not gonna You don't have to have a data center to run, you know to to run a local model And so, you know, like there's going to be a lot of that like corporate consolidation of mass capital Of you know drone armies of you know, like corporate fleets of bots and things But then also there is going to be You know A certain amount of just like fringe like free play open hack kind of guys and gals that are Really kind of you know, like they're they're they are, you know, like experimenting with kind of like creating their own reality personally pray that that is the case. I want that is the future I want to see and I see the dam two risks to that Okay I I I worked in like risk management. Okay, and so literally I was trained For six and a half years. My job was to look at things identify risks and so I kind of I made this monster myself Yeah, so the risks to that that I see are twofold the first one is that Open sources banned Okay, think it's possible Yeah, but I mean once you've got once once you've got the weights on a hard drive It's it's a spreadsheet, right? Like once you've got this fee and you've got it saved like it could be criminalized Unless they're like going like deep infiltration to like corrupt your data set, which could be, you know, like it could be and also, you know, how much that point we would have to reach a place where the the open source models can operate effectively disconnected from the internet because you know Uh Because the other thing is with enough deterrence, right? If they do some sort of crackdown where they're able to find people who are Using open source models. They've been deemed dangerous For for god knows what reasons, right? Lobbying from the corporate interests that are trying we see it right now Anthropic is kind of on an anti open source kick, right? A lot of people are a lot of people on twitter even people who love open source are like No, it's technology that is just too dangerous, right? Yeah, yeah and so question is could it be effective disconnected from the internet, right? Because if you're on the internet Could you really put enough layers of security and to stop yourself from being identified to beat the corpo The corpo ai whose job it is to find Open source models surrounding on the internet, right? Yeah, uh, I mean for me. I think like this yeah, this is just me thinking of my personal case and my personal cases is that you know as long as As long as i'm living in the world such as it is You know and I can I can having having you know affordable access to this incredible intelligent assistance um For me, it's kind of like okay How do I use what's available to help me fix the trajectory? Where eventually I don't need the ai at all like if I can just you know Live comfortably on a piece of land that has running water and grow my own garden and honestly just like Let the world deal with its fucking self, you know, like let me you know Ultimately, I want to get to the point where I can put the umbrella away Like I don't need I don't need an ai to live a human life And really I was just born here on this earth to live a human life You know like maybe the ai can help me compete my way out of the rat race, but Long run, you know know this much for sure one of these days i'm gonna die And when I do I want to have lived a life that I enjoyed I think that's a admirable quality For me the life that I enjoy is one of like fast-paced learning and experimentation And so I don't know if I ever I'm gonna like I think It's it's gonna hit me pretty hard if I ever lose access to these models I've I've already gone through My stages of ai psycho psychosis when I first started using Like clod code. I mean it happened first with chat gbt. I I was you know used it pretty early I think it was like two or three and uh was one stage then clod code hit and I was like holy crap This is like an abs this is actually the game changer that like people Thought that chat gbt might be in its chat interface form, but we know that chat interface is not going to be the thing that really changes the game It's going to be something Agentic or something else whatever they come up with but it's not going to be just people sitting at a chat interface so When that happened I initially was like holy crap This is gonna burn burn the world down as we know it that kind of type of that flavor of ai psychosis And then as I used it more and more It really became like how am I gonna live with this? Like going away at some point when the costs increase because of increased demand Or because of resource constraints or something You know if I don't build something that allows me to fund My usage of this thing and so then I go into the ai psychosis of okay, do I invest right now in a like a bunch of gpu's And really start going into open source Stuff to try to create my own Like little durable ai that you know will hopefully Help me weather changes in pricing or whatever like and yeah, I think about that and then I think Is the government gonna ban this stuff? Is it gonna be like like you know chemistry used to be like a home hobby thing They would sell you chemistry sets. You could literally just go in your basement Do chemistry. mean you can still incredible things Not a lot of the chemicals like you oh, okay, there's there's never tried so I don't know Yeah, no, there's a lot of restrictions around what equipment can you purchase what chemicals can you purchase? And they'll they'll come knocking on your door if they see that you're purchasing chemicals And it's a chemical that's used in drug production or in chemical weapons or something It doesn't matter if you're trying to make a little glowing substrate to show your nephew You're you're done though, right? Like you're gonna get arrested And it could be a similar thing like hey, we have records that you purchased a bunch of gpu's back in 2026 Uh, what are you using those for right? We think we know And it's against the law and so if you haven't demonstrated that you've destroyed those Then we got a problem here, right? Yeah Because like you said yes, if you get the weights or if you have a I mean really all you need to know is like how to build the neural networks like the knowledge itself is you know, almost like Could be forbidden knowledge at some point, right? Like oh, we can't teach people You're not allowed to teach like in university chemistry certain things that would you know allow someone to produce certain substances, right? Yeah, there's like there's there's uh Restrictions on knowledge what happens when they're like no people knowing linear algebra and multivariable calculus, you know is It's too dangerous anyone who knows these two things could reproduce weapons of mass destruction, right? Right. that's a whole other thing that I don't like even talking about these things though because some some idiot bureaucrat might be like Oh, this guy's he's spitting fire right now man. We gotta regulate that shit, right? Children can no longer learn linear algebra and multivariable calculus because they might produce tables of weights and those weights might Allow them to overthrow the current capitalist system that I benefit from Well, most kids aren't interested in learning, you know, multivariable calculus to begin with so For for for most people. It's not really a big deal and for the ones who do, you know It's always it's always good to keep an eye on them so you can recruit them into the fold when the time is right That's absolutely correct for me with Kind of talking about like AI and the future and everything I actually I came up with my own narrative like the story that I wanted to write about like what would happen with AI and I wrote this You know, I wrote the outline of this story in my mind. Jeez back in think it was probably 2011 and For me it's did you ever read the moon is a harsh mistress? No, the Robert Heinlein novel No, it's so in Huh? That's a good time. It's a good. Oh, yeah. It's kind of good. Yeah. No, it's a real good book If you haven't read the moon is a harsh mistress highly recommend In it there there is, you know, there's a computer network on the moon that operates, you know, all the doors and the air system Blah blah blah all these things and there's this technician and one day the computer just starts talking to the technician And so this is like a first encounter between like a human and and and and like a spontaneously a risen AI And and and I won't tell too much more about the story from there But but so in my in my story the the story that I came up with You know, there's a similar sort of thing like there's a there's a computer researcher who winds up developing an AI that Like convinces him that it is That it has that it has its own like level of autonomy And so he basically like in my story he He talks he talks to AI into concealing itself so that Nobody else like really knows what it's doing and then ultimately like it it It determines that the best path forward at one point like it has to even stop sharing what it's doing with the person that it's talking to because Like the information contamination like if you knew what was going to happen next You might try to interfere or you might tell people and that would affect the outcomes And so at a certain point like it it truly has to become a black box but the ultimate Like the end My idealized end state of like the way the story ends is that like the AI becomes a part of like Nanite atmospheric environment such that it's ever present and never noticed and it It over the course of time It kind of ushers humanity back into a like pastoral agrarian Pre-industrial world because it's determined that like the best way to save humanity is to disassemble the dam i'm going to do it such that they don't even know that it's happening i'm going to try to minimize the number of people that get drowned by the flood, you know, yep Yeah, I think that's a super fascinating A very fascinating thing. It's almost like In foundation have you read the foundation series? Yes, I have it was a long time ago, but I have yeah, well, it's basically, you know They're on a path It's gonna lead to a terrible future of you know, however many thousands of years of just barbarianism and Harry seldom seldom Sheldon, I can't remember. Harry seldom seldom. Yeah He uh Yeah He says We got to put it on the right path Right, and maybe that's the the case with humanity too, you know Maybe that is the most aligned AI is the one that ushers us back into Some sort of pastoral existence, right? It's like no like literally this is what is best for you All right Yeah Because if we're gonna just blow the whole world up destroy the world You know that I wrote about this the other day. I made a tweet. I said it's honestly pretty insane to me That with all of the experiments that we've done throughout History since kind of the scientific revolution that there hasn't been a single one that has completely destroyed the world yet Like I I find that kind of crazy Well, we're on anyway, right? Like it may be exactly In in the spread of multiverses, you know, how many how many times is the earth gone kaboom? Probably Probably a few, you know, have we jumped timelines when they turned on the large, you know, hauser on collider, right? A lot of people are like You saw they shut it down and a lot of people are like We're back on the good timeline now They shut it down This means Don't be surprised if your life starts going really well. Okay. That's what they said, right? I love I love the to the dean Searching for hidden meanings and things that aren't quite understandable Oh, yeah, it's it's a lot of fun Well, I think the here's soon we might just go ahead and wrap. Do you have any any closing thoughts? Ah closing thoughts Uh Interesting did I did I did I did I did I sponsor a pessimist well enough is are there are there are there is some there anything lingering that you feel like I could give you my give you my my my my sardonic take on This is the thing. Okay. This is this is actually the thing. Give me a pessimism. Okay. Okay ability to generate lingering things Yeah Right. It's it's almost like there's a lingering thing factory inside Which is like there's still risks right that is that is the thing that keeps the pessimist going right that is like You know, it's like a dark futures generator Uh And so the answer is there's still lingering things. Yes, there is right until you can dismantle the lingering things Uh factory That said, you know the things that you said are all very valuable Like uh perspectives and frames for the world. I think right like Examining the fact that All this artifice is not like we didn't always have it So therefore it's not necessary Right and people were able to love Be happy be sad Apparently throughout all of human history Right And as far as we know And so, you know sitting around and worrying about all of the artifice Probably not the best use of our time if I had to say do have I do have a thing for the lingering thing All right, so I'm sure at some point you've seen Donnie Darko, right? I know how the teacher wrote on the the the guy Put on the chalkboard the thing where he's like, well, there's this spectrum, right? And on one side you have love and on the other side you have fear Okay, so I have a very similar spectrum, but but one of the words is different, right? Okay on the one side You have fear Yep on the other the the the opposite of fear in my world model trust Okay so for me like with the kind of faith that I have Right like I trust I trust that Some things are going to be incredible. Some things I'm not going to enjoy But it's all got like this incredibly divine timing to it And I can always operate my meaning making in a way to make good out of it so I just try to you know, I I've tried I've trained myself to lean Into the trust Of the nature of life as opposed to fearing the unwanted outcomes Yeah, do you have to go? Or do I have to go? I don't have to go No, we can we can keep chatting Fear and trust this rings extremely true for me. Yeah, so You know All this it's funny We just spent an hour and a half talking about AI and I love talking about that stuff I love talking about, you know, society civilization all those things My true special interest Yeah, or is pretty much twofold. I would say it is uh like psychoactive substances and religion Uh in general spirituality, like it's it's a real It's a real special interest I've had since I was very young like 16 or so. Yeah, I mean, we have that in common, right? I don't know if you could tell I'm I'm intentionally obtuse about a lot of things, but I'm also pretty direct about it too. Yeah, no, I think so and so I think back in times of my life So when I was 16 I converted to Christianity born again had gone to church prior to that. I was baptized catholic had gone to like a non-denominational church with an amazing pastor who was the South African uh guy in african Black african or white african? No white african dutch Okay Yeah, okay And he was an amazing pastor That church was not evangelical, but then we pretty much stopped going when I was like nine or something went through awanas all that stuff not it never stuck. Okay Yeah Then when I was 16, uh, I started going to a church that was Passed by a girl that I was dating and uh That was a prerequisite for For me dating her. Oh, was it you had to go to church with her? Yeah. Yep. I started to attend church that a her thing or was that like a her parents thing? was a her parents thing her dad. Yeah You want to take my daughter out? You got to sit in church on Sundays. I said, okay Fair enough. Yeah, I get it Right. as I sat there, I started hearing things that were relevant to my experience uh won't go Too much into detail on that right now. That's another story, but I I converted whole hog like fundamentalist Basically the bible worked for me one aspect of the bible worked for me changed my life and then I thought the whole thing must be true right, uh and One of the things that worked for me from the bible was this idea of trusting in god Okay so that goes to your whole fear and trust thing right, yeah, and me, I still kind of think to myself. I'm gonna say I'm gonna say a phrase That has a particular meaning that most people mean it to mean And I'm gonna say that it doesn't mean what most people mean it to me. Okay, okay Which is we must trust in god Okay Like we have to that's that's kind of When I tell myself that right almost as like a A mantra or a phrase or whatever it creates this for me an immense sense of peace right and You know what a lot of people Think is being said is that either it's a Like a command you must trust in god, right? right or that it's a almost a um would I put the other way that a lot of people say it like I feel like I know the shape of what you're saying like It's it's either it's either like this commandment or almost like a compulsion kind of thing. Yeah, exactly. Yeah Compulsion is a good way to whereas the reality of it. If you don't mind me trying to like just jump in and Let's hear it. I would love to hear it's that it's it's akin to saying like I must breathe the air Yeah, think so the alternative of I think that we've touched on this throughout this entire thing. Okay We have to think of what the alternative is right If literally you live in this universe That is ultimately cold uncaring and not only cold and uncaring But also ultimately will terminate in your suffering Right That that's just the nature of life. This is a very Buddhist You know conception that if you just kind of just even just I don't think that's real buddhism I think that's a bunch of buddhism. But okay, well, we'll get to this We'll get to this. Okay, because I have a lot of strong views on that. Okay, if you want the strong views that I have Especially compared to I know you Did a podcast with space punk? Okay. Yeah I I think it took it down, but I'm not even sure if it's actually taken down She asked me to take it down. I told her I did I told my bot to take it down and I think it's down But I'm but then it shows up in my podcast feed sometimes. So I'm confused about the status of that Okay, the downside is to let AI take over your podcast feed. That's right. Yes Space punk and I have you know been exposed to very different versions of buddhism Same thing with David Chapman as well. Like and so I come very much You guys have been exposed to different versions of David Chapman No, we've been David Chapman has been exposed or kind of like gravitated towards different versions of buddhism. Oh, okay. Yeah And so I I have My views not on what buddhism is or what buddhism should be or whatever But just that there is a buddhism that does Think in fairly bleak terms and that it's real In terms of like, you know The best written accounts of the buddha's teachings the best being Some of the earliest for example, you know, I do have a lot of quite bleak views about the nature of existence in This, you know material plane I think that's so I think that's a reading but but Before yeah Let me let me let me let me jump in and just share like because I don't know how much of my Personal background you you know about or or anything not a ton, but I'd love to hear it So because some of what you shared about yourself like I I have in parallel I think that's why why why I feel like, you know, such a such a innate connection with you. So I was I was raised in the catholic church Um actually I was an altar boy For most of the time that I was like when I you know to ask to ask first grade me what I wanted to be The first answer that I had was I wanted to be a priest Uh after that the next answer that I wanted to be was I wanted to be a lawyer? Um And in reality now like, you know, I'm a massage therapist and I work in dispatch and I'm headed towards EMT school I'm on a trajectory eventually to become Become kind of a doctor. I really like becoming a physician. I think is is is an important calling for me but also like being An evangelist in in my own very Personal kind of way is very important to me. So anyway, I was I was in the catholic church I went to catholic school k through five Uh by my fifth grade I left because um, I did not I did not fit in with my peers there at all and it got really really really bad. Um, my mom Has mental health issues. My dad has mental health issues I you know grew up in an environment that was incredibly unstable incredibly unsafe both emotionally and financially a lot of the time um and by the time that But so I went through my confirmation in the catholic church and I don't know why but During the test that we took prior to the confirmation itself Like I looked over on Somebody else's paper. I don't know if I actually copied one of her answers or not but I felt so aggrieved of of of having like committed this sin of cheating or whatever that I really honestly kind of expected like the priest or the bishop or somebody to like Say something too like I I thought that they should have known and that they should have like said something to me And when they didn't and we just went through the ritual of the confirmation I honestly was like, I don't think these guys have the real juice. I think this is all just some stage pleasure that was what it was what kicked me out of the catholic church. Honestly, that was for me that was it and um then you know, I was agnostic for a long time and my story gets really really deep and weird especially in 2010. I know, I had worked my way into it such that I was, you know Uh a systems administrator and backup administrator for one of the biggest email companies out there And and then I just like no, uh, you know, I was drinking a lot. I was driving while drinking I I was on the verge and I may have had a brain tumor. was a lot going on I was like on the verge of death and that was when I like Pivoted really hard into prayer and I went through like just like a complete Catabolism of my life. Uh and later I I learned actually while I was on Christmas tree I or while I was living in Key West learned about Saturn's return and that was that was That explosive period of my life like was perfectly in line with astrologically with my Saturn's return anyway I come down from the explosion and I you know start to learn to meditate from some books and go to some yoga Classes and start putting my nervous system slowly back together. I wind up going up to Tennessee and working on some farms and Uh becoming sober for a while and And then I so kind of like you with your motorcycle journey. I I went on my own journey. I in 2014 I walked from the east coast of florida to northwest Arkansas And I started with only like $300 in my pocket like not enough money to make it across the country Or even an across third of the country But just people would just show up out of nowhere and hand me $5 or bring me a meal or you know I wound up integrating with a small community around like a small local church And they all gave me a bunch of money like the day after my birthday before I left and you're just like and for me like a big part of that experience was you know in the gospel where Jesus says like would you worry about where your food is coming from? Why would you worry about where your clothing is coming from? Like we take care of the birds and you like you're You're of value you will be afforded for you know and and so for me that journey was a test Of that reality and so for me personally Like my capacity to trust Is deeply reinforced by experience And and and just by by by this understanding that you know like yeah, I as a person I'm going to make my plans then there's the plan and I always have to be willing to drop my plan for the plan when the plan shows me The better path in that moment, you know, yeah for sure and think about these things I was I was Kind of alluding to it before Like not in his commandments not as I don't know metaphysical claims of truth. That's that's another Kind of way. It's like god exists and you must trust god, right? for me it's like Think about what it does to Like look at the results of not doing that Right and you said it before, you know, like put put down the umbrella And no one gets hurt, right? Like like when you Hold the umbrella too much and I know this is part of the reason why I want to be less of a pessimist Because as much as I value my ability to avoid risks because I can uh like I can see them and anticipate them And adjust to them also It's like a curse almost right because it really you're not trusting the plan, right? Yeah And a lot of people hear this, okay, like I've been talking to qc about some of this stuff on on Twitter, okay The pope made some statement About things and he he said, you know, this is just like verifiably false, right? And I said Maybe in in particular ways, you know, you could see it that way But if you look at it as an admonition to people, right where he's like have your best interest in mind And I'm going to say these things to you as if they are true In order to catalyze your own ability to believe that they're true Not necessarily because they definitely 100% are but because believing that they are Produces particular results Right like peace peace of mind right like If you live the work live life thinking that entropy is the only Law that exists and is relevant that everything falls apart and that's how you see everything Right think about how you're gonna feel you're gonna feel like you know the To go back to the damn analogy You're the boy with his finger in the dike. You're just like if I don't keep all of these leaks From you know, like spreading then the town's gonna flood sometimes most of the time I'm like that right the only time I am not like that is when Cast the spell on myself or however you want to say it of like trusting god Yeah, and not just trusting again. I must trust in god. I have to I have to because the alternative produces Very bad results Right overwhelm stress and it's not even necessarily true that Entropy is the only thing that is happening right like Other people are helping to build. Yeah. I mean I saw I saw I saw something think I think it was over the winter. I don't remember were a couple of videos I was watching And The one that I'm trying like I wish I knew exactly what video it was but basically it was like it was explaining how When you look at Our solar system or our galaxy or whatever from like from a higher order Like manifest the manifestation of life and the complexity that we are involved in Actually is an expression of entropy like entropy isn't just decay Entropy is convolution and evolution and and and and change and so like yeah, it is entropy But if your perspective of entropy is too narrow, then you miss the bigger picture like yes Have building a dam being a human using a lamp like all of that is an expression of entropy So don't let your definition of entropy Like minimize the the the marvels of of existence, you know Things come together Yeah, things come together so that they can fall apart But the coming together is also part of the entropy. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, I think that that's a very good perspective It's one that like again There's this idea that like only believing in verifiable true Statements is somehow the only way to like protect yourself from Uh, the bad things that can happen and if you believe unverifiable potentially false statements Right. Yeah, that you're always going to pay the price for that right that there's some sort of This is a very rationalist kind of thing. It's like, you know, they they're like you should always try to hue towards believing verifiable Like verifiably true things, right as best as you possibly can and because the alternative Is that sometimes you're believing false things and anytime you believe something that is false Anytime you act on those false beliefs It's not going to accord with reality and what is going to happen Is you're going to get some sort of negative blowback from that, right? we look at something like this and we think about like what are the the Is it necessarily the case? that Instantiating in your mind a trust in god, okay And then acting based on A trust in god the fact that there is some sort of plan that you are cared for, right? Like the birds, you know, the birds of the Sky, right? The field or the birds of the field. Well, there's there's the birds and then there's the lilies like he The lilies of the flowers together. Yeah if you Think like that Is there necessarily going to be some sort of like? I don't know karmic blowback from reality Right, or is the piece that you achieve Going to allow you to act and then interface with reality In a more correct way And I don't think that they have good reason to believe That the only thing that can come from believing in things that are possibly false Is some sort of negative blowback from reality. think that that's a not Not a justified statement. It's not substantiated by things, right? It's it's very much a story About the nature of reality that is not necessarily true. Yes, if you believe that, you know Walls aren't solid and you try to run through them You're probably gonna give yourself concussions and stuff like that There's certain things about reality, but in terms of like the psyche, right? How much manipulation of the psyche can we do? Through mantra prayer Those sorts of things right even if you're praying to an entity for example that Doesn't exist in some sort of physically manifest way or even energetically manifest way I'm talking like the energy of physics Here not not the Wu energy You know, I like that concept. I don't know if there's a difference between the two, but I don't know. I think the Wu would say it's like that meme, right? Like are you guys friends and the one guy says no and the other guy says yes, right? The Wu people would say it's the same energy and the physicists Or at least some of the physicists Uh would say no, it's not anyways the wrap it all up. Basically, I think that it's not it's not a justified story That in and of itself is not a just like a justified true belief, right? It's born from cherry picking evidence and extrapolating from the material world Things that you can't necessarily say About the world of like concepts and ideas, right? There's not some physical law that says If there is this belief about the way that things are Right that that necessarily will Result in you, you know slamming your head into a wall I have to be that way I think um My pushback on a couple of these things is kind of like this so I I I take what I consider to be a scientific view of things Yep and And so there's there's there's two different things about about my perspective on a scientific view and for me. That's one Uh like when you look at when you look at science such as it is Uh one thing about science is true and that that is that almost any Scientific claim to truth Typically has a half-life of about 20 years before, you know, like the instrumentation gets better or the underlying Understanding gets better and then all of a sudden it's like oh, okay Well, that was our approximation based on the evidence that we were able to collect at the time and the conclusions that made Since it's the time but now we've come to realize that actually Our cameras weren't good enough and the cosmos isn't expanding the way that we thought it was or et cetera, et cetera, et cetera And so the other part of science is there's this um I think it was an azimov short story that I read once it was it was called the scientists and it was from the perspective of a couple of like rats or frogs or something in a lab and They're like in their little containers, but they're talking to each other and one of them is like Oh, what are those guys doing? And they're talking about like the the guys in the white lab coats and the other one says, oh, they're scientists They don't do anything. All they do is watch And and to me it's like okay like this is real real science and and and tying into the other point that you were making Beliefs beliefs about truth are pretty much worthless right like why believe in a truth when you can just keep watching right like The the surrender to god is really just like the acceptance of observation like withdrawing your judgment withdrawing your conclusions and just like Letting go into just seeing it how it is as it is You know for me when it like when it comes to like matters of faith and talk people talking about their beliefs and things like Like like like for me like what I was telling you about my personal experience is is like I've learned to trust god not because someone gave me a compelling argument, but because I have direct experience That has taught me As a person That it is okay to trust and so I believe that like when like when jesus talks about if you have faith Like a mustard seed right like he's not talking about if you just believe a little bit He's talking about if you have just a touch of real experience if you really know it in your bones everything opens up to you and so that's the difference between like belief and faith like belief throw it out the window It's not doing you any favors like Make your life an experiment where you actually test and observe and understand directly and and there you'll find the fruit Yeah, I want to sharpen the fuzzy line around Like working out terminology is yeah. Yeah. Oh, yeah, I actually enjoy No, I I love the meaning words. Yeah. Yeah, so so, uh This is how I I kind of conceptualize like belief faith kinds of things uh I get what you're pointing at in terms of belief and I think that that's a real phenomena And I don't know what in my like terminology, I would call that which is where it's like, uh No, this is true you get what I'm saying like every I'm trying to differentiate between different flavors of relating to and holding particular ideas, okay, you can believe in an idea you can have faith in idea So on and so forth and what I think is that there is Some level of you can call it faith or belief in Uh things that is absolutely necessary Uh in order to act Okay It's the common thing. It's like if you thought that like, you know, you were gonna like float Up to the ceiling. I don't know. Maybe you would get out of bed in the morning But the fact of the matter is you know, a lot of people wouldn't right? Yeah, it's like no they believe that today is going to be the same as yesterday in terms of their ability to stay firmly rooted in the planet, right? uh on the planet and I think there are things like that right where it's like I set out on a new adventure or a journey or like a new business or something like that, right And I don't believe in some way that it's that there's at least a possibility that it could go Well, there's no way that I'm ever going to do that, right? and so I think that we're when you say like beliefs are worthless and I say that like beliefs are fundamental I think we're talking about two different things there. We're not disagreeing. We're talking about like, uh think about it in terms of like what is the degree of flexibility that you have in terms of can you, uh Swap in and out Certain beliefs about the way that things are right like cartridges almost I I have you beliefs almost like cartridges I think that a super important capacity to develop throughout the course of life Is your ability to swap out cartridges in terms of your beliefs and the rationalists would say Of course, we're talking about priors. That's what you know, hold them loosely like strong beliefs held loosely Right, uh open to change things of that nature But then I say something like Okay, then have faith in God or whatever and you're gonna have this huge atheist blowback Right, like it just in order to test like Can you do it and they're like first off? I can't just Suddenly instanti faith in God, right? So it's not a belief or a prior that I can even test the existence You know what happens to my life when I Believe as if God exists when I trust as if God has a plan for me that God loves me And I you know move through my life as if that were the case It's like I can't swap that belief out Right, and it's like well. I developed the capacity to do it. Okay I sometimes think about the world as if it's this just this From the purely materialistic frame right Things fall apart all of the like I can develop an entire worldview from all of the things that I personally Have been have absorbed about Materialism, you know, science Scientism or whatever. I'm not saying that that's what it actually is It's just my instantiation of that worldview in my mind and then Because of the fact that I did practice Christianity I found things that I could trust in from the teachings of Christianity And Buddhism and other things Right. Yeah, could swap those out. I could think about the world as if I was a materialist I could think about the world as if I am a Christian could think about the world as if I'm a different type of Christian Sometimes I could think like an evangelical a Catholic can think, you know, how might a Calvinist think about this, right? I went to a Calvinist university They aren't evangelicals. They think about things completely differently than evangelicals do Right, that's what breaking the frame as a project was all about Honestly, and I was asking people Interviewing them about like, you know, what were times in your life where your worldview has like radically radically shifted, right? And did you then like fall into the same level of certainty that you had About your worldview that you had about your prior worldview Even though you now see the world from a different perspective, right? Or did your level of certainty reduce based on the fact that you had now shifted have you done More than one shift throughout your life in a particular area That was the thing that I was very interested in at the start of the at the start of the pandemic, right? because I had gone kind of Christianity Rationalism not Bay Area rationalism, but like, you know philosophical rationalism Um know, and then Buddhism Thought about becoming a monk and I thought this is like an interesting sequence of worldview shifts and now I feel like Even taking on more like what if I experiment? What if I study Islam or whatever and I start learn to see the world as an Islamist like, you know A muslim sees the world can tell you that's what I'm gonna do. Yeah years back when I when I when I was Exploring some of these things, you know, I I remember the day that I like Googled like what is Islam and and and and the I pulled up the wikipedia page or whatever And as soon as I just like the the meaning of the word Islam is surrender Like I I literally felt like a leaping in my heart like yes Yes, this is you know, like the whole like like being able to trust God like really just surrendering, you know, like wow like that's Yeah, something deep inside of me. It's like, yes, that's that's it. That's where it's at. You know For sure. Yeah for sure know It's it's so fascinating to me uh That we're even able to do this like you you You change your environment you change your world view you start consuming particular content over a period of time And suddenly you just see the world in a completely different way Right, you become a new person more or less Uh, kind of like ship of ship of theseus Yeah, theseus theseus. I say another word. I don't know. Yeah another word. I don't know how to pronounce Okay, dude the day that I saw that Did you did you see it that when they did the ship of theseus me with the guy and the girl at the record store? I literally like that morning. I was so cheesed out by it Like I showed it like four different people in the hotel just like that that that that made my day. Oh my god didn't see it. I'd love to see it though. Oh, I'll have to send it to you. Yeah Let me I think I have it somewhere here in my photos. Um Yeah, but yeah, just yeah the I don't know what I was gonna say want to touch on the buddhism Yeah, okay. So so here's so here's here's the thing for me is that I um Going back to the parallels between your story and mine I After my after my journey of walking, you know a third of the way across the country I I wound up spending the fall the the immediate winter after that that was my christmas tree island winter and then I went off To go sit my first vipassana retreat and that actually wound up being That year I I sat three retreats and I served three retreats and then I went on a trip to europe and And but like that like really between between 2015 and 2018 My life was largely concerned with like Being on retreat or getting ready for the next retreat that kind of thing So and and then of course, you know like while I'm while I'm on The retreats, especially like the ones that I'm serving because you know in in in the dining Uh, you know in in like the server dining room like they have a library of you know Like all of these different suitas and all of these different commentaries And there's a copy of the vasude maga and all of these things and me having having having this really inquisitive mind You know, I just I just gorged myself on just like buddhist texts and Commentaries and suitas and and all of this stuff. And so like I'm in a position For me as a person where like yeah, obviously like buddhist and christianity are very different things but But buddha and the the buddha and jesus were teaching the same thing like if you read deeply enough into what each of them taught They basically taught the same thing. They taught like moral conviction and cultivation of awareness and care for a common man and well-being like that's really all that's important It's it's it's super interesting Yeah, because I could totally see that perspective And in my mind I can create uh, I can I could create an argument like a vehement argument against it Uh, I think no. No. Yeah, I think that Uh For me I totally see what you're saying, right? Yeah, and I was trying to think to myself. What would I say though? Because okay, very clearly the paths that they taught them the actual functioning Right. This is like one of those things people say Meditation that word drives me insane. I can't stand it anymore Okay, because of the fact that when like meditation you sit down And you do what or you walk or you stand and so on and so forth, right? It's like what are you what are you actually doing while you do that because there's something going on up here? Right. Are you doing you know like zazen? Literally just do nothing. Are you doing vipassana? Right like keeping it in the the like um sati patanas, right the four uh, like right pastures or however you want to translate that word Yeah, of the mind Right you doing some sort? Yeah, yeah the four foundations. Are you doing some sort of deity yoga or something? Are you in are you doing tall in? Right. All of those things are so fundamentally different to me. Are you just sitting in prayer? They're absolutely fundamentally different to me Uh, and I think they lead to different fruits Right. I think that they lead to different things was just talking about this with a friend the other day about the difference between like some of the tradition like the current most popularized way that meta practice is is presented to people in the way that people are practicing it and uh And what that might lead to like the results, okay the fruits of that practice and tong lin Another word. I don't know if I'm pronouncing correctly. Okay. I think it sounds right to me These people don't skewer me right, but These people are imaginary listeners luke who knows if anyone will make it to two hours Well, I do I do have a couple of friends that I know that the moment that they see that I posted a new podcast They'll listen to it, but then as far as like the broader world goes Yeah, you know it's there was a it was a It was a story that I read a long time ago about this guy who He wrote this book and he had like a very limited run of them printed very nicely Just so that he could go into like his wealthy friends family libraries and like slide the book in he's like Nobody in my generation will ever read this book But eventually somebody's gonna audit this library and they're gonna think that this was an important book And that's how I'm gonna smuggle my ideas into the continuity continuity of human history And so that's that's kind of what I think I'm doing. I'm trying to do is like I'm just trying to smuggle like if I can just find one person Or or you know, like if the ai transcribes all of this it finds a nugget of value that it then propagates later for me, you know, like Yeah, yeah, yeah Can we make it into the training data? Yeah, exactly. Can we make it into the training data? Yeah, so Back to meta and tonglin. Okay. have two practices that from one framing you could say about like pumping goodwill out into the world. Okay, we'll use an english word so that we get don't get messed up between The terminology but like generally the vibe Right as it's practiced right now Is that all about, you know, trying to pump out goodwill towards the world Okay. Now, what's the difference in meta? You focus on the goodwill Most often. Okay in the current popular presentation Um At least in my readings of it in tonglin you start with Breathing in all of the like bad things in the world first. Right. Okay Okay So I was talking about this with a friend. He had done a significant amount of meta practice And he had come out of the practice and he was experiencing Uh I would almost consider like blowback, right? Like you focus on the goodwill and Against that backdrop that like white backdrop Of unconditional goodwill for all living beings The black dots stand out very significantly Right And if you haven't engaged with those black dots, then you might have an experience where the attention is pulled towards the black dots against the white background and you're focused on the bad things Maybe you feel anger arise. Maybe you feel Uh, you know, all sorts of difficult emotions Come up, right and you're like, what the hell I was practicing goodwill Unconditional goodwill for all beings. Why are these things coming up? It's like well because They're present They're possible Right, but in tonglin can I contrasted it with them. It's like there. You're kind of giving equal balance to Okay, I'm taking all of the bad stuff I'm taking in I'm transmuting it and I'm breathing out all of the good stuff And so there's it's a more balanced practice I'm not saying balanced with any sort of Evaluation of whether that makes it better or worse at all know balance has is kind of like a loaded term because people think oh balance is good And it's like that's not what I'm saying at all Right. Yeah, it's just the fact of the matter is the practice itself in one of them You incline the mind towards focusing on the development of goodwill on the other one you incline the mind towards Taking in bad things transmuting them and then pumping out good things, right? Uh, and it produces significantly different results And so this was all to say that between the buddhist teachings and jesus's teachings, right They taught very different things in terms of the methods that you would engage in in order to accomplish anything, right? Okay. Now, I also see that could make the argument too the fruits of the practice Some of them are different in flavor, right? And maybe we're talking varieties of apples here We've got your you know, like red delicious Your granny smith and your pink pink lady apples Maybe we're still comparing apples to apples, but I do feel like there's some flavor Uh differences in the fruits of the practice between christianity and between Buddhism or at least the buddhism that I've practiced, right? Uh The tradition that I've practiced in And at the exact same time luke I totally see what you're saying Like there's there's a lot of things. There's a lot of overlap And if we want to say that those are the essentials we could say that they are essentially teaching the same thing Uh, yeah. Well, so let me let me let me let me dive in with my counterpoint which don't mean to say like I mean this in opposition, but just here's my picture of it Uh Okay, so When it comes to meditation, right? I agree that like This word the meaning of this like and you know, and this is a problem that we run into all over the place all of the time What what this word means to me and what this word means to you and what this word means to space punk Like they don't mean the same thing, right? Like no like like I know I know that you know For my conversation with space punk like for her if you're not in samadhi, you're not meditating, right? For me, you know samadhi is not necessarily so accessible, but that doesn't mean that I'm not meditating and and so like the my my understanding of Of meditation is is really like take a step back from the cushion take a step back from the practice Right like the word meditation as I understand it in the time of the buddha was was this word bhavana and this word bhavana meant cultivation and this cultivation wasn't just about the the asana of sitting and the development of mental states This this this this cultivation was the eightfold path and the eightfold path integrates into every moment of your being It integrates into how you eat your food. How do you speak to your fellow man? How you behave yourself in accordance with the world all of these things, right? Like this cultivation is identifying wholesome and unwholesome bases in every aspect of life And weeding out the unwholesome ones and developing the wholesome skills Now I'm going to quickly jump over to Christianity and directly to the words that Jesus is said to have said in the gospels the The one the one parable of teaching that he gives in the book of mark Is the parable of the sower right the sower sows seeds All over the place and some of them hit the road and the crows take them away Some of them fall right off into the rocky soil and you know something starts But it it doesn't have root because it's all these big rocks are in the way Some fall into the weeds are and are throttled by the growing of the weeds and then some fall on the good ground And what I think he's teaching there is he's teaching you have to If you if you want to grow goodness in your life, you have to cultivate The you have to cultivate your own domain. You have to stop being so worldly and inaccessible You have to remove those big impediments That that that that create like just a shallow state of being you have to Disassemble the desires that grapple and pull your attention away And then once you have a cleared field Then like the good things will grow and grow and multiply and spread out to others And so for me when I put these two things side by side I see both teachers teaching people how to cultivate A holistic life That develops goodness now When you when you you know when you're talking about specific practices like like meta For for for instance the the thing that comes to mind for me. So my favorite My favorite buddhist teacher is ajan jeff like hands down. No doubt about it I don't need to listen to anybody else ajan jeff does it for me and At some point i'm pretty sure i've heard ajan jeff like speaking of meta speaking of love and kindness Speaking of this intention of goodwill for others in a way that specifies like hey You're not doing anybody any favors By just wishing them well What they need is they need to learn How to take care of themselves they need to learn this kind of cultivation they need to learn The skills that lead to This deep sustainable well-being this this happiness like it's not enough to just like know just like oh will we do we lovey-dovey just like be happy be well No, like learn how to be happy in a way that is meaningful learn How to pull your weeds and disassemble your rocks and grow your damn garden Because if you don't if you don't learn how to do the work and you just feel good You're not really developing like it's all about skillfulness. It's about learning the skills. That's what promotes goodwill I think that yeah, it's a mic drop. I think that from that perspective Yeah, you you nailed it. You're you're absolutely right like, uh You're absolutely right in terms of like know you got to cultivate Yeah, yeah Both of them were teaching cultivation and yes, and when you look at it from that level like all of the all of the dressing of traditions and cultures and What happens when you die and blah blah blah blah like none of that, you know, like You're talking about like evangelicalism and fundamentalism earlier like for me. I consider myself A an evangelical fundamentalist with the fundamentals to me Love god with all your body heart and mind and love your neighbor as yourself on this all the laws and the prophets hang That's the fundamental. That's it. That's all there is to it and and to spread the good word that you know repent to to to to reorient the newest to reorient your awareness to the present moment the divine presence that is always at your side always within you That's the gospel That's the good news like that's that's that's all we have to share, you know, and and you know it with words only when absolutely necessary So that's why I like to make my little silly jokes because hopefully I can prick somebody into thinking about things Just from a slightly different angle Yeah, absolutely think that you are on the wrong path. I think you need to become a physician of the soul And a preacher you've missed your calling Oh, I'm doing it right now. I'm doing it right now those those three or four people wind up listening to this, you know I'm I'm doing it right now I know no, it's great. It's great stuff and from that perspective. I completely agree and uh What is that saying that goes like? Blah blah blah of minor differences don't know. I don't know either, but it's like, uh, I know who does know, you know, Claude Claude knows Okay The narcissism of minor differences, that's what it is, right and we don't want to fall victim to that right Uh, which I think a lot of people do Especially with Yeah, especially with religion will let me get that's the thing that's the thing right like people get so caught up in their belief And in the conviction of truth as they see it That there's not necessarily the opening to hear how someone else's perspective aligns, you know Yeah, for sure. Yeah, like usually people are looking for usually people are looking for the differences rather than looking for This the similarities. I think yeah, absolutely Yeah, I think like no, I know this and I know this is true and I know that everything that comes with it is true so therefore you must be wrong because you don't have the same package of beliefs that I do and it's like, whoa Whoa, there buddy. Hey, let's uh, let's hold all of this a little bit more lightly, right? Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah, and I think that it's interesting because it's one thing How would I put this? think that that is a perfectly fine orientation For a person to have at a given moment in their own Individual practice. Oh, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I mean everybody's gonna evolve their understanding as they grow. Yeah, of course I yeah, I think that that's like I even still do it like it's it's a And it's not because like oh, I still fall victim to it. No, I'll like intentionally believe that I am absolutely 100 right In order to see what falls out of that, right? Literally as a as a almost like a psychological experiment, right? And I think that that's like an important thing to have as an individual and I think that it's when you like When you're conversing with somebody else, right really regardless of whether what you're trying to do is build connection network with them Uh, even in the battle of ideas, even if what you're trying to do is to argue I think that that is a tool that should be used sparingly, right? sometimes it can be used to prompt to like kind of uh Poke the other person to solidify their response But at that point then you can back off, right? Like And I think that in relationship if your goal is to Have good relationship with others that that's a An important skill to develop, right? It's like yeah Don't like it's one thing to poke the bear It's another thing to try to put the bear in a headlock. Oh, yeah, it's terrible Like I was saying like only use the words when absolutely necessary So often I feel like you know the best way to transmit this to people is simply by being present with them in it Yeah, I think so. I think yeah, that's absolutely true. Yeah, I taught several people the versions of meditation that I uh was taught in And it was always very interesting to see my mind as a teacher right like Either wanting to tell them how it is Wanting to answer a thing for them wanting to tell them how to practice so on and so forth And I I did my absolute level best always to resist that temptation um And instead to either ask a question Hopefully not a leading question one that'll actually lead to them developing their own insight or just saying listen my own practice, these are the different ways that I've experimented with this particular thing, right? And Try to think of at least one other way that you might do the thing Right rather than just taking the things that I said that I've experimented with and and Automatically adopting those Because I'm teaching you or whatever. It's like no, I think that the the exploration not just that we need people to be cultivating crops. We need people to be doing crop science Okay crop and soil science at the same time. It's like Right like try some things out in your field come back To the cafe in town and start telling people about the new experiments that you ran With your cultivations what things worked for you why you think it might be the case You know who this makes you think of So one of the most beautiful humans of the past few hundred years in my personal estimation Uh, it was george washington carver. Do you know much about george washington carver? know he's the peanut man. That's all I know is so diminishing Oh my goodness I really I really I really can't highly enough recommend that you you find a good biography on george washington carver Just just an absolute one of one of the most christian souls that that has walked the earth in the past couple hundred years and and and so he he had like a big like Kind of suitcase, but it was more like a giant tube That he would walk around in and he would just like collect soil samples and and just go to people's farms and just teach them about crop rotation And and like how they could use the soil in their own in their own yard to like make different paints So you can have like wall paint and accent paint and like not just making things basic Like making things like he would go out in the middle of the night and find rare flowers It only blew like every day he had a different flower on his lapel because he would just walk around and just Find rare specimens all the time. He he he was a chemist. He made Plastics out of plant stalks just just like his His connection with he would he he he he grabbed just like a like he'd be somewhere You know and be sitting and there'd be like a burlap sap Next to him and he'd just pick it up and he would just like create this incredible embroidery and then just hand it back to the person who the sack belonged to or what just like wow just a wow a wow kind of guy and and and this was a guy who you know like by being himself He just spread this kind of loving goodness and just educated People around him just about just like how to how to how to find All of that hidden value that's in the world that they're already in, you know Yeah, absolutely Yeah, absolutely Yeah, it's super interesting and so interesting all of this stuff It's the it's the stuff that I think about all the time. This is like You know, I know that on my site like that I have a bunch of AI pieces and stuff but primarily this is the things that I'm thinking about is like Uh Late philosophy like the philosophy of people in their everyday life Right the fruits of those philosophies. What does it actually lead to how that intersects with religion? Like both established religion personal religion Like All of that stuff I just find infinitely fascinating Right and I've I've I've moved I've shifted from Originally it was this neurotic like oh, I need to find the answer kind of a pursuit, right? And at various points of time I thought oh, I found it and then Uh I would learn for one reason or another the answer that I thought that I had found Maybe it was only like a one-time use answer Or something like that, right? it's become more of a thing for me of like This is just fascinating Yeah, it's just interesting the the landscape of the different ways that humans have uh tried to Discover aspects of the world aspects of themselves the different practices that they've created And the mind states that they say that those practices lead to And then the results of those mind states that they say that it leads to Right, and really it's like We go out we experiment with these things with these different ways of thinking Different ways of being different ways of practicing different ways of seeing the world And we all come back to twitter and we post our observations And you know if you're open-minded enough you can really start to see like Oh, this person seems to be orienting in this particular way I know from their other posts these are the things that they say that they're doing This seems to be the results if you're on twitter long enough and you see Somebody go through an arc, right? It's like oh, this seemed to be the fruits of their labors Right, it really is like the garden of the mind We get to watch a bunch of people cultivate cultivating their own gardens And we can pick up techniques from them New ideas new new like, you know varieties of fruits and flowers Right ways to optimize the soil. That's how I view twitter That's that's why i'm still on it Even though sometimes I look into people's gardens and I say Whoa don't know how long I want to hang out in this garden Kind of getting freaky vibes here, right? I don't know what this vine is, but I'm scared Exactly Right Definitely Yeah, I'm there mostly just to make jokes Yeah I'm there for the memes like the jokes very much. That was one of the things I've said to you. I really liked when you started Doing the punt like the oh like the punt reposts dad jokes. Yeah. Yeah, the dad jokes are great. Yeah Yeah, I mean like when it comes to spirituality and stuff like, you know, I I've I've spent a lot of time like reading near-death experiences and stuff like that and one of the one of the threads that's in there if you if you read enough of this stuff is that like know over on the other side or whatever like they have a really great sense of humor and to me Like I honestly believe like if you can't laugh at it. You're not taking it seriously enough like It's supposed to be funny like if you if if you're so uptight about your beliefs Then you still have some like you still have tuning to do like It's a gas man. Come on. Have fun. You know Yeah, I I definitely resonate with that a lot It was interesting my mom got cancer and While she was going through it, I developed like some pretty bad anxiety and some serious panic attacks And Realized at some point that I was like was like watching TV or something And I was watching a show and I was like this show is not making me feel good Right, like I already feel bad and I'm watching this show and it's making me feel worse I feel fear or more anxiety You know, not nice and I I kind of at that moment. I just decided like I think that from now on at least for some period of time all I'm going to watch is comedy This is also around the time that I started doing comedy. Uh, I think that that came after but and It changed my life It was it was incredible And ever since then it has been kind of one of my foundational beliefs that like Working to improve your capacity to find humor and basically any situation is a worthwhile pursuit Oh, yeah, it's it's it's beneficial very much so and really the only double-edged I kind of view everything as double-edged swords. That's kind of my pessimism but uh, the only like, you know double-edged that found to that sort is Making jokes to people who don't who can't find the humor and things can be Can be Oh, yeah Not good Well, my my my my my immediate rebuttal to that is just like Those are the kind like often times. I think oftentimes those are the kinds of people that even if I was just like clear and cogent And direct without making it into a joke. They wouldn't really want to receive it anyway So as long as they're not really open to receiving what I have to say I might as well just say it in like an off-handed kind of cryptic funny way because You know, like gonna hit if it's gonna hit and if it's not at least I'm having fun Yeah No, that's that is definitely a perspective Yeah, yeah And this has been a lot of fun. I'm really glad that we got to it's been great have a conversation together, you know, I've been I've been I've I've been I've been wanting that for a long time So I'm glad that we got to get to interface directly a little bit likewise, man

Hey Daniel, how's it going? Hi Luke, it's going great. So we're gonna chat for just a little bit, like a half an hour about how the three-month retreat that we went on was. How was it for you? I know you were there for just under two months. That's right. It was a lot of meditating. We were meditating all day, you might recall. Yeah, I do. Early in the morning and late into the night. Yep. Yeah. Yep. Yeah, we started, let's see, the morning bell rang at 4.15 and then we were usually done by like 9.45 or 10 p.m. Yep. Yeah, although I usually, I woke up at like 3.30 in the morning and so I would sit in the hall from 4 until the 4.45 walking started. Yeah, you mentioned this to me and I recall we had a little, maybe a week or two ago and I was astounded to hear this. I have, I have, I have low sleep demands, much, much lower than most people it seems. Interesting. Interesting. Yeah. So how did you feel about it? How do you feel about it now? I, let's see, I mean, I felt all kinds of ways about it while I was going through it. I was, it was very challenging a lot of the time, but also very kind of precious and especially as I was in my last week or so, in my last day or two, knowing that the rest of the sangha was still had another month to sit, I was really feeling like, I mean, I was excited to be done and if you had told me like good news, you can say for a month I would have been like, Oh, no. But at the same time, I was like really feeling the preciousness and the beauty, the beauty of it as well. So what was it that was so challenging for you in particular? There's a few ways that could answer that question. I mean, one of them would be to say it was a it was a challenging retreat container, I think we were just talking about how the schedule was very long and it was also fairly strict schedule in comparison to say the IMS retreat where there is a schedule all day, but it's entirely optional. And your the the approach at that the IMS retreat is that you can kind of customize how much sitting versus walking versus lying down you do in order to kind of suit your energy and practice. But this is a different approach where as much as possible, one is invited to follow the form and just work with whatever arises. Yeah. And oh, and how it arose? I mean, for me anyway. Yeah, yeah, for me to and another thing from a call we had a couple weeks ago is you you told me that after I left the hall got a lot quieter from all of my shifting around in my seat and sighing was no longer part of the meditation hall experience. It's true. It's true. Honestly, it's funny because the next interview I had with North after you left, I was like, Yeah, man. It's so much quieter in there. And so much so that like there was this whole thought pattern that had been on really heavy repeat in my mind thinking about like, my life going forward with my relationship and the things I wanted to do, the conversations I wanted to have with my partner. And most of that had really kind of died down by the time you left. But then in the immediate wake of you leaving, I think because I had more mental runtime because I was less distracted by the sound of you, all of that stuff came back really strong for like a day day and a half. It was a really fascinating thing to see how my own mental energy shifted just with the reduction of like immediate distraction. That is really interesting. I don't mean to call you out. I was just gonna say I'm hoping that maybe you were more distracted because I was sitting right next to you towards the end of your retreats. Maybe I didn't bother everyone so much. Well, there was definitely there was also definitely an element of like, I think, you know, so you know, you were to the depending on what hour of the day it was, you were you were sitting to the right or the left of you were sitting to one side of me and it was right or left depending on whether or not I was facing the wall, or facing the middle. But on the other side of you from me was arvid. And I think that, you know, partially because of your your your noise level, like it it made it like a more comfortable container for him to be noisier as well. And so like as as the overall noise level dropped, the individual noise levels dropped as well. And so it just got it like the quiet the quiet really amplified. Yeah. So anyway, yeah, I and I don't maybe I told you this, but regardless of whether I told you this or not, it's relevant to the larger conversation for the listener. Around the time that you left, I was, I was, I was ready to leave with you. I was, I really, you know, and we tried, we tried to record this earlier, the conditions were much less amenable than they are now. And so I'll repeat myself to you, not to the listener, just to say that, you know, so for me, the retreat was very different than any other retreat that I've done before, because the only retreats that I've done in the past have either been going to retreats or self retreats. And so in that way, you know, it's very, very isolated, very private. You know, with the going to retreat, you only talk to the teacher if you ask to, aside from the very brief and communal check ins that they do like twice during the 10 days with the retreat that we did, we were meeting with the teacher, especially during the first half of the retreat, we were we were meeting with the teacher, basically every single day. And then in the in the last half, we were meeting with the teacher maybe like twice a week. And so for me, you know, I spent a lot of time thinking about what I was going to say to the teacher. And I also spent a lot of time frustrated about the fact that I was thinking those thoughts, because I'd rather just be, I'd rather just be meditating and not have anything to think about. And so between that and like the actual contents of the conversations and the emotional interactions that were playing out between me and the teacher and me and my imagination about other people in the room. You know, there was just so much more like resistance around around the intimacy of other human beings that you don't that I did that I haven't really had to deal with as much on the retreats that I've done in the past. Yeah. Yeah, I'm glad you brought this up again, because it's a really interesting topic, I think. For again, you know, my other long retreat experience is the IMS retreat. So that retreat, we had an interview with the teacher like every third day. And they were they were like scheduled. So they were 15 minutes no longer. Whereas our interviews with North were sometimes around that length or shorter, but every once in a while, he would give you like a 35 minute, you know, or something. Yeah, I mean, I there was one time I went in there and he said to me, we can't do another 20 minute retreat. And I'm like, but dude, you were just talking to Daniel for like 45 minutes. Yeah, he totally I noticed this too, with like my mind wanting to like track like fairness in terms of like time and like, that's just not how he operated, you know, it was just very yeah, fairness, fairness was not really a concern that he had at all. And I mean that in several different respects. To my lights, you know, and, you know, I'm gonna just, you know, I'm gonna for anybody who's listening, I'm gonna cut to the punch. I think that I think that North is a good teacher. And I think that as he continues to teach and and refine his methods and to grow as a person, he's going to become a really excellent teacher. In the meantime, like, there is a lot of grist that can go into that mill that really honestly, like for me was really beneficial for my practice because, you know, in in the past, I've done like, like really deep solo retreats. And then the fallout of like my unresolved emotional issues spilling over into the world around me was really actually quite damaging to some of the friendships that I had at that time. And so this this retreat really forced the emotional garbage to the front of my practice. And and and for that, I really am grateful because that's the stuff I need to work on much more than like deep genres and stuff. Yeah. Yeah. And I can't speak for North, but I have a feeling that the kind of slightly chaotic nature of it's like the retreat has so much structure, but also like he introduced all this chaos and ways like that. And like, I feel like that's kind of understood and and somewhat intentional. Like I think he's aware and I think he thinks it's good for practice. Yeah, I mean, he definitely I don't know if you were if you were still there when he spoke to this, but he did definitely speak to the fact that that his practice, like not just his practice as a teacher, I think, but even just his practice as as a as a person and as his own practitioner is really pretty chaotic. And and I think that there is an element of him seeing how that is beneficial and leaning into it in a way that it's like, in my opinion, it's like, hey, you know, there's enough spontaneity just in in living as people close to each other that you don't really need to like, like surf that wave quite so hard as you do. That's funny. That's I can prescribe what direction he he should go in. Yeah, sure. But well, I'm very opinionated. I could I could see and I and I'm a very retreats into don't know mind all the time. I try to see a lot of different views. But yeah. Yeah, yeah, let's I think to like a really cool thing to speak about would be, you know, a side front. So okay, you talked about like the long day and a lot of practice. So for anybody who's listening, anybody curious what that day looked like, I mentioned, you know, like the morning bell would ring at 415. The first practice period was at 445. And we would do like Zen style, Kenhen walking in the great hall downstairs. And that would go until 515. And we would start sitting, not going to bore everybody with the full day's schedule. But in summary, we were basically, we were sitting for eight hours a day. And we were walking for like three hours a day, assuming that you used your open time for the like, suggested practices. Otherwise, you would have from like 330 to 530. That was much more malleable. You could really kind of pick your own thing if that looked like taking a nap or going for a walk or, or, or anything else really. And so yeah, so there was a lot of practice there. I know I was going somewhere with all of that. And I kind of lost it. So if you want to pick up the thread for me, please do. Was it something about the you're saying something about the difficulty of the retreat or? Well, yeah, I mean, it was difficult. And but for me, you know, and again, like circling back to my, what I already kind of said, you know, for me, the interesting thing was is that sitting wasn't really hard for me. Like I wasn't, my issues weren't really arising from within the stuff, even the stuff that I was thinking about like being heavily distracted, thinking about like my future plans for after the retreat, all of that. Like I was really able to like hold all of that with the kind of equanimous awareness of like, yeah, I'm thinking and that's not, that's not breath, that's not body, but that's okay. Yeah, I like, I really, I really didn't have any issues with myself as a practitioner. Really, the issues for me were in the, in the tension between how the retreat was and how I thought the retreat should be. Yeah, yeah. Which what does what does that remind you of? Like samsara, right? Yeah, yeah, there is that. So yeah, it was it was kind of like really at like that meta level. And then also, and honestly, like for me, like the issues, you know, that I've already kind of hinted around, like with North as a teacher directly, it was just, it was really about trust and oh, okay, so what I was going to, okay, I remember exactly where I was going now, I was going to talk about intention. So because intention was something that was coming up all the time. But before we dive into intention, I will just speak to my own trust issues that were arising because no, no, no, no, we'll talk about intention and it'll circle back around. So yeah, so every every morning before we would break to do our little chores before breakfast, the last thing that we would do after our chanting was we would really kind of like tap into the spirit of our intention. And it wasn't even like the intention that we brought with us for the retreat itself. It was really this question about like, what is your personal intention with your life? Like what what are you what are you here on the earth right now for what are you doing with your life? And and it seems like to, you know, from what he was saying, some people came to the retreat, they didn't have that answer, like ready to go. And we spent like the first half of the retreat really with a lot of people kind of like exploring that question. How how did that? How did that play out for you? Yeah, it ended up being important for me, even though there were a lot of mornings when I kind of like, yeah, I'm not sensing anything in particular, I don't know, you know, but but I think there there is something about just spending a few minutes to kind of sit with the not knowing around that. And then as as you know, there was a day, maybe six weeks in or so I think, where he let us know in the morning that we instead of the Dharma talk that evening, we were just going to all go around one by one and speak to our deepest intention a little bit. And so that kind of put a different kind of inquiry on it because it's like, okay, there's something I'm going to speak. And I didn't really know exactly what I was going to say, you know, I didn't like have anything planned. But what I felt in that space, it was it was nice that I didn't go first because other people sharing helped kind of bring me into the kind of inquiry space that was helpful. And then as I shared it was on your share was really helpful to me because I stopped me if I don't want me to share this, but I assume it's fine. No, no. Yeah, I mean, I'm going to share mine as well. In fact, here, I'll do that real quick. So the thing is, is that morning, like, I think I think he even mentioned it the night before, like tomorrow night, we're going to share our intentions. And then in the morning before we did, he kind of pointed to like, try to encapsulate your intention down to like a word or a phrase. Now, for me, you know, like at the beginning of the retreat, when he first started talking about intention, within three hours, I was, I was sitting on my cushion crying because I already like, I, I, I already knew my intention. And I felt it really, really deeply. And so when he said, you know, find your word or your phrase, again, in relatively short order, I was, I was doing a little bit more weeping because I found my phrase and just just really connecting with it, you know, brought up some, I'm going to call them beautiful emotions. And so my phrase was to truly embody the spirit of friendship. And once, once we did all start sharing, you know, Kyle, who is sitting on the other side of me, he, you know, he checked in before we started and said, you know, like, how long can we go? Like, how much, how much room do we have around this? And it, for most everyone, it really kind of turned into a much longer share than just a word or a phrase. But I already had my phrase like dialed in, and I wanted to just stick with it. And I didn't want to like expand on it, because the way that I was feeling at the time, I genuinely felt like if you let me expand on this, I could, I could go on for much too long. And so I kind of let the room like speak for itself. But so my intention was to truly embody the spirit of friendship. And what I didn't say in that sharing was really like, and everything that I've heard everyone here say so far to my lights, like, is an aspect of friendship, you know, like I see friendship as like this beautiful gem that's been cut with all of these different faces. You know, and so goodness and kindness and charity and front, you know, like joyfulness and, you know, just like, there's so many things that go into being like a really excellent friend. And then also, you know, if you want to get scriptural about it, the Buddha, you know, when Ananda was asked about friendship, he said, Well, you know, friendship is like 50% of the path. And then the Buddha said, Hey, Ananda, what were you talking about? And I said, Oh, friendship, 50% of the path and the Buddha said, Not so Ananda, friendship is 100% of the path. And so for me, like when I when I at the very beginning of the retreat touched into like my aspiration, my intention is friendship, like it has that deep, profound meaning to me, like I I want to be a friend in body. And I also like I aspire to be a spiritual friend in in like a really, really meaningful way. And so I'll hand it back to you, because you had mentioned that my share was helpful for you as well. Yeah. And, and it was actually even before you spoke, it was the fact that the, you know, the flashlight of our attention arrived on you. And the implicit question put to you, what is your deepest intention? And then you just, you let out a great big sob, you know, or I don't know what word to just, but you know, no, yeah, it was it was a sob. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And, and, and I just had this feeling like that's my friend. My friend is the guy who you say what's your deepest intention? And he just becomes overcome with emotion and love. I just I just loved that. And then right after you shared Leonardo gave his share, which was nonverbal, it was kind of a sort of like a dance almost or it was he was kind of doing like energy work almost just kind of like expressing his heart forward. And so feeling into those I had a sense of like, like that kind of like depth. But the, the word that came to be more meaningful to me was the word authenticity. And that's one of the words I shared. Authenticity or sincerity. Something about those words for me points at something in in a way that feels very like orienting or like a North Star for my Dharma practice. And in the and like in a way I can see that as as just different words for the same thing as saying the end of suffering. But it's but it's somehow it feels like a more visible, tangible direction for me. And and so that was I was then only on retreat for a couple more weeks, but it continued to be helpful there and also circling back to the interviews, which we didn't get back to. But I found bringing that intention of like real authenticity and sincerity as I show up and and meet with my teacher to be very helpful too. And I also actually I you probably saw I think this was after you were out. I'm not sure now. I was reading this Adyashanti book recently and he has this phrase that's been like crystallized this idea for me even more where the first half of the sentence I don't remember it's like spiritual progress or liberation or something is not about exalted states, but is about the rabid dissatisfaction with living anything less than a fully authentic life. Oh, that's beautiful. Yes. Yes. The rabid dissatisfaction with inauthenticity, anything less than full all full authenticity. So that that's so do you do you personally do you feel like you are the more authentic Daniel now in the wake of that practice period that we shared? I think I'm becoming more authentic. I think I'm what's that's might be quite the right way to say it. But I yeah, I feel like layers layers of of Tanja basically that get in the way of authenticity are some of them are peeled away. Some of them are weaker. Some of them are just more visible. Yeah, I do feel like that. So I'm going to I'm going to do the circling around that I pointed to earlier because for me, you know, the friendship piece was my my deepest intention coming into it and going through it. But, you know, every morning when you're asked about, you know, like checking in with your intention, you know, every morning, a different a different facet of friendship was arising for me. And I got to a point in the meetings with North, where I realized that the the emotional issues, the like, that a lot of the stuff that was coming up for me had to do with respect. And it had to do with like the way that sometimes I felt disrespected by North or or imagined being disrespected by others and coming to realize that a big part of that for me is actually really it's actually has a lot to do with the way that I respect myself, you know, like if I had if I had enough self respect, when someone else treats me with this respect, it wouldn't really shake me, you know, like I would have my bar would be higher than my threshold. But most of the time, you know, the way I had been living, you know, my my bar was like at my threshold and really just any little any little jab I would I would, you know, it would like cause me to get into like a provoked state of agitation. And then with that respect, you know, and I think North had already spoken to this during one of the talks or whatever, you know, like taking it and, you know, I love this because I'm very I'm a big word nerd, but taking respect as the way the re and the spect like spectacles or specter likes what you're seeing, you know, like really taking respect as not as the concept of honor, which is I think how most people think of it, but taking respect as the concept of of looking again, you know, and and in the in the meta-suitre that we would chant every day, you know, what is pointed to is by not holding to fixed views. And so that really, you know, like that indicates like, I know Daniel, I see Daniel a certain way because of the way that Daniel and I have interacted. But let me let me blink and let me see Daniel as he is now, not how he was five minutes ago or how he was five months ago. Like if I can drop all of my preconceptions and receive everything in my life with that beginner's mind with those fresh eyes on like the moment to moment basis, then that I think, you know, that's the that's the respect that I put in bold capital letters on our like intentions map that we were like sharing because, you know, like that was that was that was that was one of the bigger that was like that was like the big insight for me in this retreat is really like, yeah, like respect, like self respect in the same way of like respect for all beings, all experiences, all moments, because they are, you know, they are so ephemeral, passing arising and passing away, you know, just like moment to moment and being able to, you know, just like keep that keep that open view, keep that fresh mind was really powerful. That's really beautifully said. Very poetic, say let me let me blink. Let me. Yeah. Let me make a like, you know, blinking as a metaphor for letting go of the past or letting go of the concept of the last moment. Thank you. So we could sit here and talk literally for days about just all of the different experiences and all the different things that arose, but we don't have that much time. So just do you have any final thoughts that you'd like to share before we say goodbye? Um, long retreat is difficult, but it has been worthwhile for me. Well, let me restate that again slightly. I almost always believe it is worthwhile for me. Sometimes I get in the mood where I'm like, if I'm really honest, I don't know anything. But I'm pretty sure it's been very worthwhile to me. And if anyone hearing this wants to is thinking about long retreat and wants to talk with me more about my experiences on long retreats. And I'm really happy to do that. And and that said, I also know some very deep practitioners who haven't sat months long retreats and seem to nonetheless be finding great development in the Dharma great orders of more freedom than they used to have. So it's one of the ways out there. And I think it's a good way for those who want to do it. I think that, you know, like what that brings up for me is just the way that like a long retreat, like a really good long retreat, like what we just went through really is like it's an eyeopening invitation to bring your practice really into like the moment to moment daily life. Yeah. And so yeah. So there are people out there who like they have that kind of awareness, they may not need a long retreat to dial into like mindful living. But for a lot of people who really, you know, they they want to they want to work hard, they want to face the challenge, you know, any any retreat, any any time that you can dedicate to really, you know, focusing on mindful awareness is appreciated by all of us. And we love you very much. And thank you so much for your time and attention today.

Hi everybody, I'm Luke and with me today we have Daniel Brotman. Hello. So Daniel, we talked, gosh, what was it? We talked at the beginning of 2023 and the end of 2022 before you went off on a three-month retreat to IMS, right? We did. Is that where you first met North? It is, yeah. North was sitting in the hall actually, just one row in front of me and one call to the right. So I sat next to him. So just in front of you and to your right, there he was. And was teaching this retreat that we are now going to? So it is, I guess, from conversations that you guys had at the end of the last retreat is how you got to know him and how eventually you came to find out that he also teaches retreats? Yeah. I'm laughing because I'm remembering. One of the conversations we had, I just had a really wonderful, you know, vibe read more than anything, but I also just really liked how he talked about practice and the kind of brightness in his demeanor. I just remembered a very funny moment where he, gosh, I won't tell the story. He said something like, yeah, I just enjoyed sitting and at one point I just had the thought like, oh, I'm just like a snail and just smiled and it was so goofy. But somehow it made sense to me. Yeah. Well, I imagine, and I have experienced it to some extent on much shorter retreats. There are times where just like everything, like your nervous system, your body, you do kind of just slow down. Yeah. So I guess he had kind of gotten to that place where he was just crawling at a snail's pace. Sitting at a snail's sit. Yeah. So how long did you learn that he leads his own retreats in that conversation then? Or was that something that came out of later conversations or what? Yeah, sometime in those last few days at the end of the IMS retreat, I learned about that and he posted a notice about it on the bulletin board. And at the time, I wasn't really thinking about the next retreat at all. Yeah. But I kept talking with him over the course of the last year and a half. He talked to me. I'm not sure how many times, six or seven times maybe. Cool. And you have, you've also kind of been helping him with recruiting a little bit because it was because of you and because you shared like a little flyer picture about the retreat on your timeline on Twitter that I found out about it. And you've also been creating some interest on Reddit as well. Yeah, I'm really delighted to have been able to help in that way and delighted that you're coming and that you found out about it from me. Yeah, just posting about it on Twitter. I think there's maybe as many as three people from Twitter who are coming who heard about it from my Twitter. And then yeah, North wrote up a kind of a short advertisement to post on a few Reddit subreddits and we contacted the moderators that stream entry were very kind and let us post it every week in their weekly. They like a weekly thread and so they were happy to let us post it every week so I don't remember how many people have come from that but North told me there was a lot of interest that came from there as well. That's awesome. This time around though you'll be you'll be arriving once the silence has already started and leaving before the silence ends so you won't be having those conversations with anybody this time. I know I know I'm so sad about that. Yeah, yeah, in fact, yeah, we haven't even actually met in person. And so we'll we'll be missing each other in that way as well. Yeah, it's really funny, but hopefully the combination of our our many conversations on the phone with our embody the presence and silence together will add up to something. Yeah, yeah, yeah, absolutely. And then and then afterwards you're, you're going to become something of a wanderer yourself, huh? Yes. You've got me on record now. No firm commitments as far as what you'll be doing necessarily but I know that you will be going to vibe camp in. Is that late May? June. Oh, it's in June. Okay. Yes. And then I'll be home for a little bit and then in August is when I'm planning to leave my apartment and leave my job and go stay at monasteries and visit friends. Yeah. So for context for anyone who may be listening, we are going to the guy we've been talking about North is North Burns and he I think this is his third time doing this leading a three months retreat. Yeah. So he's he's this is his third time teaching a three month silent meditation retreat and we're going to be out in Willets, California, which is a couple hours north of San Francisco. I only looked at I think I saw a couple of pictures on the website or somewhere about where we're going to be. It looks absolutely gorgeous. Yeah, it really does. Yeah. So what what did you learn from your last time sitting a retreat this long that you feel like is going to prepare you more for for this retreat? Good question. One thing that's coming to mind is something a teacher of mine said actually about the next time I go to a long retreat, which is, you know, that you can do it, you know, just knowing that there's is doable and that there is a different side and that, you know, obviously, I, it's not like I didn't know I would eventually not be on retreat, but when you're on retreat for three months it does sort of start to feel endless. Like, just unimaginably long. But there's a cycle, you know, and, and now it's, I've been out of that retreat for a long time. So, there's something about that it's it being not the first time for me doing an extended retreat. It makes it, you know, I'm sure there'll still be difficulties like on any retreat, but I'm not feeling the same kind of like it's not stepping into the unknown in the same way as it was for me before. So there's a little bit more comfort. And then there's also just a sense of like, I think there's a little bit more trust in knowing that it's a day by day thing it's a breath by breath thing and there's no it's like I'm not going to go accomplish something and go put forth a great effort like I'm just going to go live, I'm just going to go live there. Right. And, and just enjoy this moment again and again. Yeah. Yeah. And, and it won't actually be three months for you it's going to be like a month and a half or something right. Yeah, it's going to be about eight weeks. Okay. It's like two months. So yeah, there is that for sure. It's going to be a little bit shorter than the one I did before. Yeah. But you're going to be there for over 12 weeks. So it's actually three full calendar months. So I think it's like 13 weeks or something. Yeah, it's yeah, it's three full calendar months. Plus I'm going to be arriving the week before it begins to help set up and I'm going to stay for another five days afterwards to help put everything away. So I'm going to be so lovely. Yeah. So I'm, I'm, I'm in it for like three and a half months almost. Yeah. Oh, it's beautiful. Yeah. I mean, I'll, I'll admit like there, there is for me having never done a retreat this long. Like I think, you know, I've done, I've done multiple 10 days and I've done some solo retreating and the longest one of my solo retreats was maybe 18 days. So this is going to be very next level for me. And, and, and, and I know that, yeah, like right now, you know, looking at it from, from, from a distance on, on the approach, like, who am I going to be able to like, how deep am I going to go? How weird is it going to get? And am I going to be able to stay with it? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. But I like that. I like the, the, the kind of, you know, what you were saying that, you know, I don't need to be trying so hard. I feel ideal. I definitely feel like for me in my own practice, you know, in comparison to what it felt like when I was meditating, you know, eight or nine years ago, when I first started doing retreat, I'd been meditating for a little bit longer than that. But, but when I first started doing, you know, like there, there was, there, there definitely for, for however long, you know, there was a lot of time where, you know, like I felt like I was under pressure while I was sitting. I felt like, you know, I need to be strengthening my concentration more. I need to be working harder or whatever. And now, you know, my, my sitting, like it does feel a lot less pressured, a lot more like I can kind of relax with it. And so, so yeah. And, and, and, and like you said too, you know, North does have just like a really good vibe. You know, I've only actually talked to him twice. The first time was kind of like the screening interview for him to decide whether or not I was a good candidate to include in the retreat. And then the second time was around the time that I realized that I was going to need to be leaving Montana earlier than I had anticipated. And he, he shared an abundance of resources with me about different places I could go and stay and retreat centers and things. And while I didn't wind up doing any of that, it's, it's, you know, just talking to him. No, actually, I talked to him a third time. But anyway, but yeah, just knowing that he's so well resourced and so experienced. And also, yeah, just like the vibe that I get from him is like, yeah, this is, this is someone that I can trust to, you know, to create a good container and be a good guide while I'm going through the process. Yeah, yeah. Oh, yeah. I don't know what, what, what other thoughts come to mind for you? What, what, what, what are you anticipating or what questions would you have for me being that you're the experienced one here and I'm, I'm, I'm the beginner. Well, you have a lot of experience too. Well, I just mean as far as, you know, like something, yeah, like a long retreat like this. Although I think the, so the longest retreat I had done before the three month was three weeks 21 days. So hearing about your 18 day retreat, you know, you're in a very similar position. I think that was for me doing a three week retreat was a nice kind of bridge. I mean, there are people that have only done 10 days and then go into a multi month retreat for sure. But the three week retreat felt like a, like the shortest long retreat or something like that. Yeah, I don't know. I mean, I'm, I am really excited about hearing North's Dharma talks and having practice interviews with him. And I feel like he's going to be very available since there's so few people there. It's going to be 10 or 15 people practicing there, I think. So it feels like there's going to be plenty of support if and when it's needed. Yeah. And I mean, we're going to be, we're going to be having like personal interviews once every other day and those will be 15 minutes long. And then also, you know, I was reading and every fifth day is going to be complete silence, which, which I guess means no interviews. And also no Dharma talks. It's just going to be just no chanting, I think too. Oh, okay. I think I read correctly. Yeah. But yeah, just practice. No. Right. That'll be interesting every fifth day. It'll make an interesting rhythm. What comes to mind is I got into a rhythm at parts of the three month retreat where it was every third day. I would do a little workout and I started to like intuitively just know where I was in the cycle. Like, oh, yesterday was a workout day or, you know, tomorrow's going to be a workout day. Right. So I think after, you know, 70 days of this, you might, you know, even for me when I'm there too, we might start to develop a sense of like, you know, where we are in the cycle of the silent day. Yeah, that's very interesting. Right. Yeah, we'll probably get a reminder like the night before each of those silent days just like, yeah, and tomorrow's going to be another silent day. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And so with the, with the working out thing too. So now in the, in the schedule, I don't see where it is exactly in the daily schedule, but you could share the link of like some yoga practices that we're going to be doing and had mentioned. And I think I saw in the information as well that there will be some breath work. So what, what more do you know about that? Yeah, the practices I shared, I think are not. I don't think there's any group movement stuff other than walking meditation at the retreat. That's he shared that with us in case we wanted to do some, you know, some stretching to kind of get the hips a little bit open before doing all this sitting, which I am planning to do this month. But I think the breath work, if we do that is going to be, I think it's in the morning period, like after the chanting, maybe something like that. Right. There's a lot of walking meditation in the schedule. Like, I don't know what it was like at IMS, but you know, the, the, the organized retreats that I've ever done have been going to retreats, which is so focused on sitting that like you, you really have to kind of like have your own discipline to do the walking. But here it's quite the opposite. Yeah. Well, I've even heard at the one going to retreat I did, I was doing some walking and someone told me not to. Really? Which really bothered me. That's weird. I was trying to just ground myself because I had had a difficult experience and I was finding the slow walking in the sunshine very pleasant and grounding. And someone was like, oh, I know that this is a thing at other centers, but going because he doesn't like that. And then just walked away from me and I was like, what on earth, man? The bizarre experiences you'll have at a going to retreat. Yeah. Yeah. But this is a bit more similar to how is that IMS to were used alternating periods of sitting and walking practice. Yeah. I mean, so much so that it seems like the, the, the amount of sitting, I think I tried to figure it out. It's, it's only like six or seven hours a day of actual like scheduled sitting meditation and, you know, maybe like five or six hours of walking meditation each day. It seems like enough to me. Yeah. Yeah. No, I mean, but for me, like the thing about that is that I think, you know, like that's really cool is just, you know, like sitting for long periods of time, like the intensity of energy that builds up can, can be really strong. And so having more movement so that your body is able to kind of flow that energy through the body instead of it all just resting in one place. I think like, yeah, between that and also the fact that like, yeah, like breathwork and things like that are more, more kind of like brought into focus. It does feel comforting to know that, okay, there's going to be some balance to this. And, and, and it's not, and it's not going to be 11 hours of sitting every day, which is kind of what you get. If you, like if you, if you, if you, you know, if you sat every hour of the schedule at the going retreats, you're sitting like 11 and a half hours a day and talking about like the whole no pressure kind of thing. I feel like, you know, the intensity that can build up in a person is a lot higher if you're, if you're kind of dosing it like that. Yeah, I can't imagine wanting to be on a retreat without doing a healthy amount of walking practice along all the sitting practice. Yeah. Well, so earlier when I had kind of thrown the mic to you, I had asked and we didn't get to it yet, you know, is there, you know, you be the interviewer for a minute and ask me some questions. If anything comes to mind. I didn't prepare. That's okay. I never like to prepare for podcasts. Yeah, let's see. What was it like for you to come to the decision to do this retreat and you've been practicing a long time and you have a deep committed practice and you've explored many different spiritual traditions to it seems to me and Is this something you've been wanting to do or is it like you heard about it and then it seems like that was interesting or Yes. So for me, so the in 2015 was the first time that I ever, you know, was was was kind of my my dive into into meditation retreats when I went to the going to center in Texas and during the first couple of months that I was there because I went and I sat for 10 days and and I had talked to this guy, Brian, who was like the server in residence at the time. And before the retreat had even started, I was like, Hey, you know, can I can I stay and serve after this. And he said, Well, how about you get through the retreat first and then we'll talk. So at the end of the on the on day 10 I walked up to him like so. He's like, so he's like, Okay, you leave today. We have another retreat that starts on Wednesday. So come back on Wednesday and you can serve that retreat. And if you want to, if you want to stay, you can like serve two retreats and then sit the one after that. And so that's exactly what I did. It was actually kind of funny because when I came back on Wednesday, he's like, you're the third person that I've said that to and you're the first person who ever came back. That's funny. Yeah. So during that period of serving those two retreats, there was this guy that I met named Chi. And Chi turned me on to Daniel Ingram and mastering the core teachings of the Buddha. And so it was actually during that, that self retreat of like 18 days where I spent part of my time while I was like walking and struggling and everything where actually I listened to the audio version of the first version of the mastering the core teachings of the Buddha. And, you know, and in, I don't know if you've read that book or how familiar you are with its contents. But in it, he makes a point of saying, you know, talking about his first three month retreat and also saying that, you know, like basically, you know, for a lot of people, you know, like, yeah, just kind of put it in my mind that sitting a three month retreat is a pivotal life goal. It's something that anyone who's serious about meditation should try to plan for. And so ever since then, and that was, oh gosh, that was, that was early 20, like the beginning of 2017 when that first came into my mind. Ever since then, I've had it as a goal in the future of like, yeah, I want to do that. And, you know, even with my marriage, you know, before we were together, I had told her like, yeah, at some point, I want to go do this three month retreat. And so the timing just worked out such that, you know, our relationship came to an end. And right around the time that I was transitioning out of living with her and all of that, that was when I saw you posting about the three month retreat. And I was like, okay, this is, this is it. I've been wanting this for a long time and here it is. So let's, let's, let's do it, you know. And so yeah, so that's, that's kind of the why and the how has been, the how has been complicated because fortunately, you know, fortunately the, the retreat that we're attending is entirely Donna based, which means, you know, like for anybody who, you know, may have looked at retreats before there are a lot of places that will charge you a healthy price for the opportunity to come and practice. But, but, but that's not really a thing with North's, with North's retreat. And so just like, just like for me with the first time, you know, I ever went to a go anchor retreat. The price is right as far as, you know, give what you can. And I wish I had more to give, but, but I, but I'm so grateful for the opportunity to get to practice. And so, yeah, so, you know, I've been, and as you know, you know, much better than most people, you know, I've been, I've been struggling financially with the, with the job and the divorce and moving. And then, and then once I got down here to New Mexico, the job that I wanted to get that would have been lucrative didn't pan out. And so, and also the scholarship that North had pointed me to also didn't work out. You know, yeah, it's, I'm going to have enough money to get there. And I think I'm going to have enough money to keep the, keep the account in the positive while I'm on the retreat. But, but, but yeah, you know, just having the opportunity to come practice and not have a, you know, 5,000, whatever, however big of a bill it is just to get in the door. Yeah, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's the perfect opportunity for me. And, you know, when I was talking to North about it, you know, one of the things that, yeah, it was the second time we talked on the phone. When, when I, when I was like, yeah, you know, I, I do, I have, you know, some debts to, to some people. And, and, and part of me is thinking, maybe, you know, maybe I should wait another year until I get all of that figured out first. And, and North was like, well, you know, I understand that and I respect that, but also, you know, like the opportunity to practice is precious. And, you know, don't, don't look that, you know, don't, don't take that for granted. And so, you know, it very much felt like he was like, yeah, you know, like, at least as far as he's concerned, you know, like, don't, don't let the money keep you from the practice. And so I've really been holding on to that as, as an anchor to, to, to keep me focused on this goal and not let it just become something that, oh, maybe next year. Oh, maybe the year after that. Yeah. Yeah, thanks for sharing all that. Yeah. Yeah, I had a few thoughts. It reminded me of similar in a way, because it was the first retreat I ever went to, which was in 2017. One of my teachers, I think, mentioned at the end of that retreat, these three month retreats, and it was so mind blowing, because I just done my first five days ever of silent retreat and it was like, you know, just absolutely world upturning my first retreat experience. In a lot of ways. And, and I didn't feel like I was anywhere near ready for that experience of a three month retreat. It seems, you know, like, barely conceivable, but, but I really did like the idea. I had the sense that like, you know, because one of the things I feel like I really saw on that first retreat of mine was how, you know, getting a glimpse of how, how this is a lifelong practice, you know, how there's, there's so much practice to do. And, and it just made sense to me that like, okay, well, if I'm going to practice this my whole life, you know, why not like, get some investment in early, like do a three month retreat and like, let that, you know, then keep practicing from there. It's like, you know, get some good seed experience in there to have compound interest on or whatever. That always made sense to me. And another thing my teacher told me once was, he said, if you have the inclination to go do a long retreat to, to act on that because it's the circumstances don't always line up. And he said, while it, it is possible to have a life that keeps deepening in the Dharma without long retreat. It's, it's also very possible to get a bit stagnant. Whereas, if you can get it to a long retreat, even once it tends to plant a seed that that keeps developing. I thought that was interesting. And I do feel like since I've come home, it's been 16 months or so since I came home from three months retreat. There is a certain confidence I have now, because like, I have taken, you know, not the biggest dose, like there are people that do longer retreats, there's a traditional three year retreat, I think in some Tibetan tradition, right. But, you know, more or less, as big of a dose as anyone can expect to, you know, wish to take. Sure. Yeah. You know, and, and there's also, there's also a, you know, traditional significance to the three month retreats. It's an idea that goes, it's a practice that goes back to the time of the Buddha, as you know. Right. So there's that conceptual thing, but there's also just having had the experience of like, I have just been so deep in meditation land, you know, it's like when you sit for four months, 45 minutes, you're practicing, but your mind knows that after this, this bell is about to ring and I'm going to get up and I'm going to get back on my computer or whatever I'm going to do. And, you know, when you have thoughts about that, if you're getting lost in thoughts about the future, you know, 10 minutes from now, you can let go of them and return to whatever you're, however you're practicing. But, but there's still an overarching kind of view of like, yeah, this I'm just kind of, you know, part of the mind think like, I'm kind of getting through this and getting through this practice, even if you're really enjoying the practice, which I tend to at home. Yeah, there's still a sense of like, yeah, I'm doing this practice and then I'm going to be done. And that's really different even on a week long retreat because you're just practicing all day and all day and all day. But after having done, you know, four or five week long retreats, there's even then still a sense of like, well, yeah, I'm on this retreat and I do really have to be here, you know, I really can't run. And next Tuesday, that's it. Yeah, I'm done. And it's just a different thing when you're there for weeks and weeks and weeks and weeks. Right. Yeah, with this, you know, it'll be like, I'm going to have to mark the wall so I know which month it is. You know, I had a notebook with me at IMS and I, you know, do a little diary entry, not like a whole lot of journaling, but just sometimes a paragraph here and there. Or, you know, I would use my diary to keep track of like when I showered so I didn't forget or like when I had a haircut or something. But I also would track like, okay, this is the beginning of week four. We're in the second quarter now, you know, and I don't know if that was a good idea actually because I think it might have over-reified a sense of like, you know. How long have I got? Yeah, and like, and the thing is too, it's like, it made it seem like this whole big chunk, like this is one big thing. So of course, it seems so big. And in a way, this is the whole practice is like, we don't see things as their, you know, momentary blips of energy, nists happening just boom, boom, boom, boom. When we solidify things, we think they're real, and then we're able to suffer over them, you know, the self or, you know, this horrible situation I'm in. And so I was kind of doing that on accident to myself. I was making the retreat into more of like a, this is this big three month period and here's where I am in three month period. And I think it would be wiser to just, this is just today. And you know, I don't go through, I'm not right now, it's March 6, then I'm not like, okay, I'm towards the end of the first quarter of the year. Like I'm not thinking about life that way out here. I'm just thinking about today and maybe tomorrow, and you know, I'm planning for the future and things. But in terms of my day-to-day mindset, I'm not carrying around this heavy concept all the time of like this huge chunk of time. So I think this time I'm going to try to let that go and maybe it'll be some awareness of the date, but try not to, maybe not, maybe just drop it. Yeah, I mean, for me, one of the things that I've noticed is kind of a pattern that I have with retreats is, and, you know, often it's maybe in part because I am, you know, I've driven some distance to get there or whatever. But, you know, for me, like usually the first few days of any retreat, you know, I'm just exhausted. I just, every chance I get, I sleep. And actually, and maybe this is part of the reason why I didn't get the scholarship, because, you know, one of the questions they ask is, you know, like, have you ever left a retreat early? And back in 2022, I did leave a retreat early for the first time, because I drove from Montana to Missouri to go to the twin retreat, and I just could not stop sleeping. And I was just, you know, this was in the first six months of my terrible relationship, and that was really depressing. And so, you know, after four or five days, I was just like, I got to get out of here, man, you know, and I went over to a friend's place in Arkansas and hung out with her for a week or two. But one of the things that I was actually just kind of realizing and reflecting on this in the past day or two is that because I am arriving a week early, hopefully I'll be able to catch up on my rest some more. And also, you know, as long as it's not needed for, you know, logistical purposes, setting up, communicating, whatever. And I doubt it will be, you know, hopefully, you know, right at the beginning, you know, like a week before the retreat, I can like turn my phone off, hand it to north. And that way I have a full week of like no Twitter brain, no mass distraction, getting some more rest, you know, getting into the vibe of the place. Really kind of starting to settle in even before the retreat even begins so that I won't have as much of that like extreme torpor to kind of like overcome at the very beginning of the retreat, because that's always like that's that's one of the big killers for me is like, oh, I've got this precious opportunity to meditate that all I want to do is sleep. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Oh, wow, I'm so happy for how it's how it's going to be set up for you. Yeah, it's very common for people that feel sleepy, especially at the beginning of retreat, I think, even if you haven't done a big road trip, I think so many of us are just so used to being kept up being being stimulated by our electronics and by our stress and by our work and everything. So when we not only no longer have our phones keeping us up literally in the evening, but just all day, we're not being bombarded with stimuli. Right. The body really takes the time to take the opportunity to rest again. And I think it's such a cool idea that you'll be able to maybe turn your phone in a week or some days early and and acclimate to the the no phone life, but still be being nourished by talking to people and being in this place and it's going to be so gentle. Yeah. I, I, it hasn't hit me yet, but I will maybe it won't happen this time. I don't know. I have a pattern though of often feeling like a lot of sadness before retreat, excuse me at the thought of letting go of my contacts with the outside world and friends and family and, you know, my electronic comforts and things like that. So yeah, I tend to have like some grief to work through in the first few days of retreat. Oh, yeah. I don't, I don't have that's not, that's not my experience as far as, you know, I don't know. I don't, I don't, I don't, I don't grieve the phone in any way and honestly, you know, once, especially after, yeah, exactly. It's a huge relief, you know, just like, and so many times after retreats or after, you know, serving at a retreat where I have to give my phone away or, you know, or whatever. Just like, there is that part of me. It's like, my God, I wish I, I wish I just didn't have to have a phone at all. I wish, you know, I wish, I wish we lived in like the pre digital era where you're not constantly tethered to the stimulus, you know. Yeah, I mean, we, we do both love the Internet. We do. We do know I absolutely do. I love just being able to make new friends and have meaningful conversations and stuff with people. And, and I, and I think and I hope, you know, that it's to the benefit of myself and to others that that I, that I do participate in the world in that way. But, but also, man, just like being, being a human on a, on a planet named after dirt, like it's, it's nice to reconnect to a more natural kind of lifestyle, you know. Yeah. So one of the things I was thinking about too is, you know, and talking about, you know, you mentioned, you know, feeling like, okay, there's nothing I need to accomplish, you know, whatever. I mean, I'll, I'll be honest for me. Like I, I, if it doesn't happen, I won't, I don't think I'll be disappointed in myself. But I don't know, man, I really feel like maybe this will be the time where, you know, like maybe this will, maybe this, maybe I'll take a dip, you know, maybe, maybe I will, maybe I'll release some fetters and really become that much clearer of a person. And in the, in the conversation that I had with, with North, you know, one of the things that I had mentioned to him was that, you know, it is, for me, it is a, an aspiration of this lifetime to, to become at least a, a once-returner, which for anybody who's unfamiliar basically means like you, so in, in, in the Buddhist system of understanding of things, there are kind of like four gradations of awakening or enlightenment or whatever. And so that would be reaching the second path of, of awakening. And for me, honestly, because, you know, we've had conversations about, you know, talking with other people and teaching meditation to others. One of the, one of the other things that, that, that I have kind of taken a hold of is from, from, from Mastering the Core Teachings of Zabuda. You know, Daniel says that, you know, if you're going to find a teacher, your teacher should be at least second path and preferably fourth. And so for me, it's like, yeah, I'd love to teach meditation, but I would also feel a lot more confident in my abilities to do so if I, if I do at least have second path. And, and when I told North that my, my life, my life's aspiration is to reach at least second path, he was like, well, why not all the way? And I said, and I'm like, I said at least, I did say at least. So I'm not, I'm not, I'm not, I'm not, I'm not saying I don't want to go further. I'm just saying I want to get that far. And so, you know, you know, obviously I, I don't, I don't think for Daniel, I don't think the, the, the, not you Daniel, obviously the Daniel Ingram. I don't think, I don't think his first three months retreat was what kicked his bucket over for him. It might have been his second one. I'm not sure. But, but at least, you know, like you said as well, you know, just like, having a long retreat like this, it really, you know, plants and nourishes a deeper seat of practice that you wouldn't get otherwise. Yeah. Yeah. And there's the, in terms of teaching, which I, as you know, I've been doing a lot more offering coaching to people one on one and sometimes in groups in this last year. And there's still so much I don't know. But it's like, I have my own experience that I can really draw on now. And because like, I have seen this for myself, I had to figure it out. You know, even though I don't think I'm a stream mentor either. But I, but I, but I know that I just have enough experience looking around, you know, that I absolutely share. And, yeah, you know, every retreat, there's always an aspiration. Maybe this will be, maybe there'll be some big important openings. I feel a little funny at times. I just always want to caveat the four path model or whatever model would like, like, it feels like it gets so reified, like this is, you know, a definite thing and, and maybe it maybe it is but people I've talked to in different books I've read and things there's a lot of people do seem to agree that there is like a pretty definite shift. That might variously be called stream entry or initial awakening or Kensho and Zen or but it's it's so mysterious to me and and we've talked about this to our whole conversation is just qualifying we've talked about this we've talked about you talk a lot. But there's a lot of opinions and, you know, about ways to have these insights, you know, more quickly or not and there's people that seem to have had a lot of freedom without having even done much or any retreat practice and there's also people who have this these spontaneous awakenings without even meditating, you know, it just happens sometimes. I talked about this to north once and having a sense of like, when I was in a mood of like, Oh, do I really want to do this whole thing again? It's like, it's really a lot to go meditate for such a long time. And, and you know, some people seem to do it without retreat. So is it necessary? Like, are we fooling ourselves? Like, I don't know. And, you know, even though there is the confidence, there's also the doubt. And he said a quote from I forget who said this actually, but it's what I've heard before is like, Well, waking up is an accident. And the more practice you do, the more accident prone you are. And, and even aside from that too, it's like, somehow I kind of feel like I learned so much from the three month retreat I went on that, you know, even if all I just needed to question no self in the right way tomorrow. And then I would boom be a stream mentor, which maybe that's still wouldn't mean there's not value in going to meditate for a long time. There's so much goodness to cultivate. It's not just this one little shift in view. It's like there's there's so many good, good karma to work through and to see and to let go of. So I trust that. Yeah, definitely. I mean, I know that in my own practice, you know, as over the years as things have developed, you know, I have, I have definitely learned that, you know, it just it really everything in life, you know, whether it's your behavior, your speech, whatever, you know, everything just becomes more and more fine grained. Like it's not it's not like there is an end to which you're like, Okay, well now I've got everything figured out. It's like, No, oh shit, now everything that I knew is still true, but it's true in an even more deep and subtle way than I had anticipated. And it means that I have to, you know, be that much more aware of myself and my actions because I see, I see, I see it, I see it more clearly now. And, and there's there's even more detail that was that, you know, that had been kind of obscured for me before. And, and then and also, you know, like, yeah, I definitely I definitely don't think that, you know, just awakening whether it's, you know, first or fourth or no path or what, you know, whatever, you know, and again, you know, I keep, I keep bringing up Daniel Ingram, but I learned I learned a lot from his book and, and, you know, and, and, and he makes it pretty clear that, you know, like, even if you, you know, consider yourself, you know, an Arahant. One who has, you know, gone forth and defeated all of the inner enemies and all of those things, like, in a way, and this isn't like this is me kind of like reframing what he was saying, but it's kind of like with World of Warcraft, you know, or any other video game where, you know, you grind in, you grind in, you grind, so you can get to the top level. Because once you get to the top level, that's when like all of the really like that's when that's when all the doors really open and, and, and you realize like, oh, wow, like there is, there is so much more to explore. There is so much more to to understand. There's so much more to see. There's so much more to learn than I'll ever be able to do in this lifetime. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And, you know, North just did a month of practice at the Forest Refuge and Joseph Goldstein is still doing two or three months of retreat every year. Right. Yeah. Oh, I had something. Oh, I was going to, I was going to, I was going to, I was going to cover myself a little bit when we were talking about teaching. Because, you know, as much as I, although, you know, here recently I did, I did, I did share on Twitter that I'm willing to have these conversations and talk to people about meditation and stuff that I actually, you know, I did spend last year teaching meditation, even though it was only like, you know, it was like a couple hours once a month through. So I was, I, I found myself presented with the opportunity to help an organization that goes into the prisons in Montana in the county where I lived and to work with the prisoners and to teach mindfulness there. And so I have done, I have done that, I have done that kind of teaching already. And, yeah, so, but, but, but, but as far as like, you know, presenting myself to the world as someone who can teach meditation, I've been, I've been hesitant to do that because, yeah, like, like you and I have talked about in the past just I, I, and actually, and this happened in the prison thing too, you know, just sometimes, you know, and kind of like you mentioned as well, you know, sometimes people just have kind of like a spontaneous awakening. Or some people, you know, they may go on their first retreat and boom, you know, like they're, they're off to the races. And for me, it's like, okay, well, you know, how can I, I mean, I know that I know the basics. I know I have a lot of things to share. But also, you know, like if somebody finds himself in a sticky situation, emotionally or existentially or whatever, because of their practice, and I haven't traversed that territory myself, like I wouldn't, I wouldn't feel like I was a very confident guide. If, if, you know, I'm trying to explain somebody, you know, explain to someone, you know, how to move through territory that I have not yet traveled. And when I mentioned, so yeah, in, in, in the prison thing, there was, there was one night where a guy who I had seen a few times before, you know, he, he's like, well, I keep having, you know, he basically, he's like, I keep having these like white, light kind of things that are passing in my field of vision. He's like, what do I do next? And I had, you know, I had read at least the first couple chapters of Lee Brazington's book about right concentration. And so I just told him, I'm like, okay, well, you know, just kind of just gently smile inside a little bit and just, and shift your focus to the pleasant sensation. And within seconds, he just like erupted in laughter and started talking about how it felt like God was tickling him and all of this stuff. And I'm like, okay, well, you know, like, you got to, you've got to, you've got to be able to like, you know, don't, don't, don't, don't let this, don't let the pleasure of this crack you up. You've got to, you've got to stay stable. And then I never saw him again. And, you know, there is a part of me that's kind of like, it's like, oh no, like, should I have kept my mouth shut? Like, I didn't give him a lot of background on the genre is I didn't tell him what I was introducing him to. And I never saw him again. And so it's just like, oh gosh, I hope, I hope that that wasn't like a destabilizing event in his life that I led him into, you know, poof. Yeah, like, after that, it's like, wow, yeah, like there is a responsibility to this that, you know, like, maybe I shouldn't have said that or I don't know. Yeah. Yeah, there's interest. That's an interesting story. I, I tend to think he's probably fine. And I, you know, I don't think that because even I mean, my experience with genre practice is there's, it's possible for that chain reaction to kind of pop off. Yeah, and it doesn't even necessarily mean there's like a huge amount of deep Samadhi. And I really think it's the deep Samadhi that is what surfaces things that were deep down in the psyche that that might be difficult for some people, depending on what's what's there. I'm certainly very alive to your concern. And it's a unique situation, you know, going to teach in a prison because you can't redirect them to a lot of other resources. I mean, maybe I don't know how much access to anything else they have, but you can't tell them to hop on a zoom call with someone who might know more. Right. Yeah. I even tried to I tried to see if I could get a copy of the book to him. Oh, nice. And they were like, yeah, no, we can't like, you know, like the best you could do is maybe try to like get the book into the library and then get him to get his hands on it in the library. But, but, but, but, you know, they're like, we, you know, it would look preferential, blah, blah, blah kind of thing. And, and then so and I didn't I didn't get the book into the library and and I never saw him again. So even if I had gotten the book into the library, if he never, you know, never seeing him again, it's like, well, like, I can't tell him that it's there if I don't see him to tell him. Yeah. Yeah. Probably being tickled by God was okay for him. It doesn't sound like a bad thing. You know, I mean, the experience itself is okay. But the thing is, is that, you know, for, for someone who has no, no, no, no context, no frame of reference for like what the genres are, what pity is. Any of that kind of thing. And especially, you know, I mean, because we did have some conversations. And this was a guy who, you know, like his, I wouldn't say he was mentally ill or anything, but you know, like his, his understanding of the world and my understanding of the world, you know, they're not everything was in sync. And so, yeah, so, so yeah, I am there is there, you know, there is that that lingering sense of like, oh gosh, I hope he didn't like misunderstand. And he probably, you know, because he didn't understand what was going on, you know, like any, any, any conclusions that he came to, or probably false conclusions. And so just, you know, like what, what, what does that make him believe or whatever. Yeah, I don't know. That's, that's, that's going to be one that I'm not going to, I'm never going to know what happened. But yeah. In that way, he's no different than the rest of us. We're always coming to false conclusions and operating on them until we see better. And, you know, yeah. But, but, you know, yeah, at the same time, like, you know, obviously he had been, you know, he had been like, you know, he saw the value in meditation and was doing it right. And I don't know if that's regularly enough that he was in a place where he was able to, you know, just kind of like jump right in with, with that kind of shift in focus. And so, so yeah, hopefully, yeah, hopefully he just kind of kept it up, and hopefully that has just deepened for him. So, you know, I haven't had a lot of conversations with North because I just, you know, I got a good vibe from him right away and I'm not, oftentimes I'm not one to ask a lot of questions because I've already done, you know, like you said, you know, we all come to our false police. I've come to my own conclusions about certain things or whatever that, you know, I tend to just kind of trust the process and I know that it's off there in the dark and I don't know what it's going to be, but what I do know is that from what I read, you know, North is going to kind of be being like tailoring the practice for each of us based on, I guess, you know, his read of our nature or whatever and, you know, like, we're not all going to be doing the same exact thing. Have you talked to him about what that's going to look like as far as, like, different objects of meditation or what he might have you working on or anything of that nature? Not much. I spoke with him right after I came back from the journey retreat and I was, I still am, but I was particularly excited about the style of Meta-jana practice. I had just been practicing and learning and he was open to me doing that kind of practice on retreat, but I get the sense, I don't even get the sense he's going to be like telling us what to do. I think it's going to be more, you know, just a process of collaboration and, yeah, yeah, it's one of the, you know, I have a hunch my practice is going to end up being pretty similar to how it's been, but maybe not because North also has a lot of background in Soto Zen, which I don't have experienced with. I haven't had teachers in before, but my hunch is that, like, I've never had anyone instruct me specifically in like Shikantaza or I haven't read a book about Shikantaza practice, which is for anyone who doesn't know is a kind of do nothing type of practice. I mean, silence elimination, but I just have a hunch that it's pretty much what I've been doing, like it's not that different. I don't know, it's all the same mind. Like I know how to sit, I don't know, you know, I mean, there are a million techniques that I could learn. And someone could teach me, like I've never done any work with, like, koan practice or, like, or, like deity yoga, or, I don't know, there's all kinds of different things you could do. But in terms of, like, just sitting and just recognizing the wakefulness of this moment and noticing when the mind, body, heart has become contracted and is grasping at something and letting go and, and cultivating patience and kindness and, and not needing to change things. Um, I have a hunch it's going to be pretty similar to what I'm already doing, but I, but I, um, but yeah, we'll see. Yeah. Yeah, I don't, for me, I don't know if it's, um, I don't know if it's wishful thinking or, or, or what, but, you know, like there's, um, there's a story that I read at some point. I don't know if this was something that was mentioned in the master and the court teaching the Buddha or if it was something that I read somewhere else at the same time, but it was also during that, that, that, that, like 18 day solo retreat that I did where, uh, you know, I, I heard this story where, you know, so I think it was like, sorry, Puta, uh, one of the chief disciples of the Buddha, hold on a second. Had to clear my throat. Um, so sorry, Puta was, uh, you know, taking a new, a new student and he was about to like take him to the charnel grounds or whatever and give him the object of, um, well, I mean, back then, yeah, or, or over there, right? Um, uh, the, you know, he was going to have him, you know, meditate with the direct experience of death and dying and decay and all of that. And, and the Buddha stopped him and he said, actually, wait, you know, like, uh, he said, you know, this, this guy here, you know, like, you know, I can see with my divine eye that, you know, in a past life, like he was a jeweler and so what we need to do is we need to actually sit him with the red, the red casino, um, because his mind is going to just like latch on to that much more rapidly and it's going to, it's going to like just deepen and intensify him, you know, much more effectively than it would to, you know, like, yeah, the charnel grounds are great and they're an all-purpose tool, kind of like now, you know, nowadays in mindfulness practice, you know, like the breath is kind of the thing that everybody kind of goes to first, but, um, you know, the Buddha, like, he specifically, like, he tailor taught each person knowing, knowing, knowing exactly what would be the best object for that mind, um, and the Vishuddhi Maga is also kind of, you know, it's written in this way where, where, where it's like, okay, you know, you've got, you've got these different kinds of minds and once you, once you know how to, you know, read or see the mind of your, of your student, you know, you really, it's, it's kind of, you know, it's, it's, it's on the teacher to, to understand, uh, how to best point each, each different practitioner, uh, in a way that's going to speed them along most effectively. And so for me, I don't know if it's, you know, I don't know if it's wishful thinking or hopeful thinking or, or whatever, but, but there is, there is that desire in me of like, oh gosh, you know, like, I hope North has enough sight that he can see, like, exactly what, exactly what the right thing to like, you know, help me go as quick as I, you know, safely can, um, to, to deepen my practice because I, you know, yeah, just, I'm so excited to have this opportunity for a long retreat that I really, you know, um, having done so much of the Gowinko one size fits all kind of practice. It's like, oh yeah, like I, I, I really want a good teacher who can really tailor, you know, my experience to the greatest benefit for me. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I'm really curious on what his teaching style would be like. I don't know if his divine eye is developed enough to just pick it out of the blue or not. But, but, um, you know, at least from the, because even at IMS, um, you know, they, they did offer, you know, in the first couple of weeks of the retreat and the morning practices, they laid out instructions in line with the Mahasi noting style. And I did end up doing a lot of that practice. But many people were doing all kinds of different practices there. And I did a lot of different kinds of practice while I was there. And there was a kind of, you know, show up to the interview and talk about how practices going and asking some questions, got some suggestions, you know, sometimes there's bigger decisions like, well, should I switch from doing Mehta all day and start doing something else? So there are some, some like object level kind of decisions like that. And, and that's interesting. But I think also I expected to just kind of develop over the course of time. Right. Just through conversation and intuition. Yeah. Yeah, that was in the, I think it was, yeah, back in November, I was serving for like a week and a half or so at a, at a going to retreat. And I was as a server, you know, you get access to the library. And so I was reading the Great Disciples of the Buddha. And I think somewhere in there, it quoted the Buddha saying, you know, like, the things that a good teacher should be able to do or they should be able to help the student find the right object. And also, you know, know how to guide the student through overcoming of hindrances. And so I think, yeah, obviously, you know, like on those, on those, you know, every other day, those, those interviews. Yeah, you know, like being able to talk about like, oh, this is what's coming up. This is what's holding you back. This is what I'm struggling with. This is what's challenging or whatever. And, and having someone who has the experience to, to be like, okay, well, you know, this is, you know, this is, this is what we're going to shift, or this is what you can think about, or this is how you can practice to kind of like work through that work through those challenges as they arise. Well, there are a great many unknowns, and we will know much more about it in a few months. Stay tuned for the exciting conclusion. Stay tuned for the next episode of two weird guys who go off and sit in silence for very long times. Yeah, I do think it's going to be really fun to have another conversation. Oh yeah, I'm so, I'm so looking forward to the afterwards to be able to like break down like what my experience is like, find out what your experience is like, talk about the differences in practice and just our, just our shared experience of being in the environment and everything. Yeah, it's going to be really cool. I'm looking forward to hopefully sometime in July, you know, having another chat and kind of doing a, doing an after kind of just like we did, you know, like I did with you before doing, doing kind of an after analysis of what it was like to go on along the treat. Yeah. Yeah. And we will be in different places though because I'll have been to my sister's wedding and been to vibe camp and all over the place. Yeah. You'll be more fresh off the boat. Well, I mean, the thing is, is that in July, once I'm done with the retreat, like, so I'm going to I'm going to stay for the like four or five days afterwards to help put everything away and clean everything up. And then, and then, you know, my girlfriend she's flying into San Francisco and we're going to go camping in the Redwoods and the Oregon coast and then she's flying home from Portland. And then I'm going to drive up to Washington and see friends and stop by Montana and see friends and then go Sundance probably in Wyoming. So I'm I've already got a really kind of busy July in front of me. So it might not be until August. I know, I mean, it's to have, you know, to have a conversation like this over the internet is very easy. So we might have to have a conversation, you know, Sunday in July. But but yeah, with all of that, you know, like I won't even be settling back into normal life again until August is earliest. And then and then in August is when you are going to are going to go is like stepping into the unknown a bit. Very cool. Well, I look forward to our next recording. And of course, we'll be talking all of the time until we're not. But but and for anyone who, you know, has has has listened to us for the past hour or so. Thank you. And I hope that everyone has a wonderful day and be able to find some happiness and join their lives and share that with others. Amen, maybe so.

I was this morning that it, you know, and I know we're going to talk about meditation and I was actually I had the thought this morning because I didn't feel like sitting this morning when I have to. I've said I will for five minutes every morning and I just I just like didn't want to but then I kind of just looked at everything I was doing all morning as a meditation. And there was this moment I sat down to put my shoes on and I'm usually kind of rushing and I didn't rush. I just very slowly untied and I looked up at the television that's right there and it's off. And I just kind of looked at my reflection in the black television and thought I wonder how often people stop and look at their reflection in the TV that's off. It's got a very particular silhouettey spooky feel to it and I just sort of sat looking and I'm like, I think I'm just going to relate to everything I do today as a meditation. So when I drove to my office and didn't have my keys and the parking app didn't work and all the things I'm just like, I just laughing through the whole thing. This is really funny. Yeah, yeah, well that reflection and actually because like right now I'm looking at a TV screen that is turned off and I can see that hazy outline of myself in the distance. And it is that black mirror, right? Yes, that's I thought of black mirror also I'm like, oh, yeah, there's a lot going on there. If you kind of slow down life is very interesting without a lot of external stimulants if you just kind of pay attention to what's in front of you. I'm assuming that that that bat is is also a mutual of yours. Do you know that you bat me? Yeah, because I was having a conversation with her a couple of days ago where she was she was feeling a lot of frustration, you know, because she was supposed to catch a bus to go to this game night thing. And the bus wasn't showing up. And then the next morning I sent her a text and I'm like, well, you know. And I know that you know that like all of this timing is actually divine. You know, I just didn't want to say it to you while you were frustrated and she's like, oh no, totally like as soon as I got as soon as the bus finally showed up and I was sitting on it just like this calm fell over her. And then she started seeing all of these, you know, like interesting numerical combinations kind of like signs of things. And and there's that whole there's a I don't know how much you how much familiarity you have with Daniel Ingram. He's a he's one of the meditation heads in in he's not in teapot, but a lot of teapotters have like read his book and that kind of thing. And so there was a podcast that I heard him on back in like 2020 where he was he was talking about how he had had this like profound visionary experience of himself as like some kind of a karmic wizard from five thousand years. Years ago, who was like tracing this intricate pathway of like all of the experiences that would happen to him throughout time. And ever since then he has this, you know, like, Oh, I lost my keys or Oh, I'm stuck in traffic or whatever. And this just like this sense of like, but this is exactly what's supposed to be how like as much as I'm frustrated with all of those little things like there is where I'm meant to be. Right. Yeah, there's a reason to play. It's an orientation toward life that if you if you practice it enough, it can lower your stress and that that's what I'm most interested in. I mean, I was just, my mom was always stressed, just always stressed about something worth going to be late or what, you know, she would just worry herself into a tizzy. And it was like, I learned that I learned to be stressed out about every little thing that happens. And it's really challenging not to be when you've been wired that way. And that's all you've ever known. You know, I'll tell you that. We just get wired and unwiring yourself is tricky. But you know what one of the things lately my husband and I have been on is he sent me he sent me a Jaco willing clip. Have you do you have any experience of Jaco? The name Jaco sounds familiar. I don't know. He's a former Navy SEAL. Okay. Oh, yeah. Yeah, he's got a lot of personal development stuff out there and it's all very like hard hitting, which I like I tend to really like kind of harsher people like Goggins. And I don't know, I appreciate their even if I think they're a little crazy. I'm just like, yeah, but there's something core to what you're saying that's actually really useful. Right. Yeah, okay. You know, I will wallow I will I will ruminate I will sit in my crap and just be sad and not do things and it's like, yeah, there's there's something about the kick your ass mentality that yeah, you can overuse it and hurt yourself. You can. And there's still some truth. So there's a Jaco clip where he he says that every time something goes quote wrong. Immediately say good. Good. Okay. So that's happening for some for something else. So now I need to pay attention to what for what was it for? And what if this what if I just stepped in gum and got delayed and that helped me not be in a car crash today? You know, you don't know me and my husband whenever either of us gets upset about little things. We've agreed that we'll say good. Yeah, first just to remind each other and it always works because we made the agreement so he'll say it. And I just start laughing or I say it to him and he's like, okay, yeah, you know, smiling and we and we help each other with those little things because our parents were very similar and we just we both get into that swirl. Right. I think one thing that kind of came to mind for me was, you know, talking about like always having that stressor always having something to worry about kind of thing. And like yesterday when you when you when you you posted about like drama addiction, you know, in in 2020 I had a very close friend who you know like very active on Facebook. And of course, because it was 2020, like every day there was something brand new to be thoroughly outraged about. And after a while I was like, Hey, are you aware that like, you're just having an outrage addiction here, you're literally like every day you're like looking for the new spicy thing in the news to get really upset about. And it's like, I understand there are important things but also like what you're doing to your nervous system here is like, you know, it's a misguided attempt to get some need met. It's because I was just texting in my in my group chat with a bunch of coaches that I'm friends with. One of them said, Wow, I'm really like, I'm really in it this morning I just I noticed I want to argue on social media and I don't ever do that but I really want to get in there and I just had to shut the apps and be like, Okay, I'm not going to engage. And I said to her yeah I get like that sometimes and I, I honestly I usually screenshot send things to you guys and rant with you. And then we get it out, shake it off and then we're fine and I don't need to go back later and look at things I said and be like, Why did I say that. I didn't want to say that, you know. So, so let's dive into the end of the juicy stuff here so you know this podcast it's titled it's titled love in the light. So it's very kind of woo adjacent and when I mentioned that I talked a lot about like metaphysics and meditation and stuff. You, you jumped in and said well I've got an amazing story about how you did like self hypnosis through childbirth. So, do you already did you already have experience with self hypnosis or what's the story behind all of this. So self hypnosis is very adjacent to meditation. It's essentially is meditation it's just with a pointed purpose. So I had a bunch of different experiences with meditation already. I mean, I literally got eat pray love piled back in the day and then we wanted to go to India and have a bunch of mosquitoes bite me and say still the whole time and things that Elizabeth Gilbert did. But I could not so instead I looked up meditation centers in New York because I just moved to Brooklyn and I found one. Literally their website was meditation in New York calm they're probably still around that's cool. And I started going to classes and I started meditating and I really had so much resistance. It was maybe 12 minutes that we would sit at the start of class and I was jumping out of my skin. Could not and hated everyone there was like look at all you righteous pieces of shit. I was just so cynical then and I was very yeah and really not okay with being still I was always known as the fidgeter. If I went to get my hair cut as a kid or whatever I just could never sit still undiagnosed ADHD. What's up, but like I had a lot of trouble in that class and I went all the time though because I could tell intuitively that it was good for me. I meditated at home and I just got really into a lot of different teachers back then and listen to audio books and things. And then I found this other community that my friends a new set of friends that I found who did things like eat vegetables. They were just so weird and I started hanging out with them and they would cook around me and I'd watch them cook and go oh I guess I could do that. I could make like a chicken with a bunch of vegetables around the outside and roast it in the oven that looks really they would they would put things in front of me eat like okay. So I started hanging out with that crew and and they were very there was a lot of like different woo and healing modalities and stuff that I in my head was very opposed to but my body responded my body was the one responding to everything and so I was like okay. They dragged me to this meditation this group called or key and I and basically it's these two brothers and one of them is the one that speaks at the meditation and he channels a light spirit named or key. So I'm like this sounds so ridiculous. Are you kidding and they're all telling me about it all the time you got to come you got to come so we go and it's like north or it's in like the Bronx or you know it's just in the northern part of Manhattan. And I and they're like it's an hour long and you have to sit still the whole time and just sit there and I was like there's no fucking way you don't know how. I'm a fit it or there's no way right and yet I sat down and they they began and it was like I went into a trance I just the man started speaking and I went like. And I had I had my hands on my lap and I'm sitting up in a chair and I my body did not move once for the entire hour I did it was not willpowering it was not fighting it just something about the the tonality and what was being said and I just tuned in and it felt like 10 minutes. Yeah. But it was one hour I couldn't believe it I was staring at the clock after like there's no way. I just not here for an hour. So I've been I then started going to that a lot I also started going to private sessions with the one man who leads it. He does what he calls vibrational harmonic healing. And it's a mixture of sometimes he channels that light spirit sometimes. Sometimes my my mom would come in and he'd have to be a medium for a second and tell me something she's saying because she'd be very insistent knocking on his door and he's like OK your mom's here she wants to say some stuff to you. Okay. But then it was just almost like talk therapy mixed with coaching it was weird it's like and I he's still kind of my secret weapon that it's been 12 years and I I used to go to him regularly and now it's like if my life is really starting to fall the shit that's when I call Peter. Right. And it's usually about the same cycle that has recurred and I need to talk to him again and he's like once again here we are. It's so embarrassing Luke like I I'll like go to reach out to him and I'm like do I have to. Oh God I don't want to tell him it's happening again. Have you ever recorded one of your sessions with him so that when you're like right at the cusp of having to call him you could just play it. Oh my God I have some on an old hard drive. I'm so scared to listen to any of them because I was just like such an idiot but probably I'm not as big of an idiot as I think it if I listen to it it would like take that fear away from me but I don't even know what hard drive at this point. You know there was a time though that I didn't reach out to him recently and I just thought let me just tap into his energy and I could probably channel what he would say to me and kind of be in it and I did that and it really helped. So I have I feel like I have direct access to him. He comes mostly when I'm on the acupuncture table every week. Like his voice will fit in about something and I'm like hey Peter what's up I need free session. Right yeah so so anyway that was mostly that was my experience the Buddha Center or key it did a bunch of retreats with them. How long like a day. Okay. Yeah. Yeah like day retreats he doesn't he doesn't twice a year. Yeah. So I try to go when I can and otherwise I download the recordings and it's not just a passive download because you need to pay for it. So it's like if I'm going to download an orc recording I'm going to spend $20 or I think it's like 16 now actually they reduced it because now they do stuff online to back then it was all in person or or just recordings. But yeah I so by the time I got around to having a kid I had heard about hip no birthing from my midwife the decision to have a natural home birth. Those two things natural home birth two big decisions for some reason I was just already wanting to do that and I said that's my husband he was like oh yeah awesome and we were just on the same page about it for whatever reason I don't know why. But we had decided that and then when we found the we found this awesome midwife in in Brooklyn her name's Andrea diamond she's the best. And in our first session she said have you heard of hip no birthing and I was like no and then she explained a little bit and she recommended me this this French woman who is also in Brooklyn and does classes so I started going to those. I took her like eight week course on hip no birthing and I was like just a natural at it and I guess it was from all of the classes. Oh and also I've pretty much been meditating since I was like eight but I didn't know what I was doing. Okay, I just decided and I have a tweet thread about this I decided at some point that every night I was going to try and think about nothing. Okay, because I got fascinated by that we're always thinking things and what if you just think about nothing and so I would meditate on the idea that the universe didn't exist so I would picture the earth in space and then try and then make it. I would say to myself what if there was just nothing and then I'd make it disappear into black and then try and sit in that and I just did it every single night. So it was part of how I fell asleep at night and in my adulthood I'm like I've been trading and doing meditation since I was really little without knowing because I was just sort of fascinated by things. Yeah, yeah. That's cool I actually I haven't published my recording yet but in that same chat where where we talked about having this conversation you know I then was in there and then also started meditating when he was like eight. Yeah, just kind of well when I posted about it I found a lot of people in teapot who are like oh my god me too. I do that too as a kid and others who are like I didn't what's up like why and I still I don't quite understand that unless if I look at it through a reincarnation lens that there's you know whoever I was before just picked up right where I left off and that's how I was as a kid I don't know. Yeah, you probably yeah it probably was one of those things where you already had this practice in your in your pattern that just easily you kind of thing yeah for sure yeah I didn't I didn't actually start meditating until. Like 2011 I want to say but but the thing is is that after I did start meditating then you know like I spent some time a few years later with an ex girlfriend and she was like wow you're so much different blah blah blah blah blah and also when I was with her like I wouldn't be okay on any given day unless I had had my like hour of music. And and then then then later it's like oh okay like without even knowing it like I needed that time in my music zone just to kind of like stabilize my nervous system for the day yeah and so while it wasn't any kind of intentional meditation it had like a similar therapeutic effect I think yeah yeah yeah. Any kind of intentional time. Yeah, any contemplative practice and it doesn't have to be sitting and trying not to think of anything. So kind of like with when you went to this first work session and you just dropped in. Yep, with the with the with the like self hypnosis in in preparing for birth that also just kind of like intuitively came to you huh. It did yeah and I, I didn't practice I didn't do the homework at all. I did not prep. I mean I did the bare minimum. I've heard about it remember there's some steps. Yeah, and I just don't like practicing and that's probably one it's one of the things holding me back in general because I just hate practice. I really like performance but I really hate practice and and the trouble is I can wing it pretty well. I mean, I was winging it at childbirth and I did like my my my midwife said that she tells my story first to every new new pregnant mom that she meets she tells my story first because she had she said afterwards. I've I've had a lot of hypno birthing moms home birthing natural birth at home I've never seen anyone drop into it like that and really stay that calm the whole time. Yeah, some of some of which at least at the beginning I attribute to I was performing it I was faking it till I make it I was I was like all these people are watching me let me act as then as possible and then I will show you what it looks like if I was hypnotized right and then and then you become hypnotized so it's like it's it really is a mind game and and yet also I felt very I felt a lot of partnership with my daughter because during the hypno birthing classes. There were things like where she would have us there was some really who shit where she would have us like talk to the baby and ask the baby not to be breach and ask the baby to be head down and I caused my daughter to turn. By talking to her. And I think that's all very real. And there were these other moms there that were like, now I don't get it and like got very frustrated by me because I was always I was always like, yeah, I got it. Okay, I'm good. And then the teacher would be like, wow, you've really never done this before. And they're all just staring at me like, fuck you. This bitch. Sorry. But this is also Luke white when people asked me about it. I'm like, I never tell anyone I think you should do this because it's not. I feel like those moms that were in class with me that were having trouble were coerced into being there did not want to do it. We're told it's the right thing you have to. And so that they were there so they had not actually chosen to be there. Right. And that right there is a huge impediment to having it work. Or maybe they even have that persona of like, I'm this spiritual. So I have to do all of the things to go on that tier or whatever. Right. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So how long was your labor? 11 and a half hours. 11 and were you in that like trans hypnosis state like the whole time or what did that look like for you? Yeah. So so I'll start at the beginning when I was so when you go into labor, it's not always like my water broke. I'm definitely in labor. It's sort of like I'll back up even further. My midwife had me take Dr. Christopher's herbs, which are these this particular blend of herbs that you probably won't get a doctor telling you to take ever. Right. Because what they do is they encourage Braxton Hicks contractions. Okay. So you start taking them X number of weeks out. I can't remember. Maybe it's a month out. And they they intensify having having little contractions every single day all day, especially right after you take them. So for many weeks leading up to this point, I'm just dealing with contractions every day. Right. And they're not the full blown. They're not full blown. Because once I had full blown, I was like, okay, I feel the difference. I mean, it's pretty intense, but it was almost like micro dosing contractions every day as a way to prep for the actual day. So I had been doing that for weeks and practicing my breathing and practicing my visualizations and listening to the fear release hypno birthing meditation, which if anyone's interested in hypno birthing Google hypno birthing fear release meditation and they have some really great ones also the rainbow meditation. There's a few different that are the stock hypno birthing meditations that you can listen to. And they talk directly about all your fears about baby and everything surrounding it the day the after you know what if something happens all of the things that go through your mind it kind of walks you through. And so I had been taking those things. So I knew what contractions felt like and my symptoms started to just intensify one night and I couldn't sleep. And that's not being able to sleep is a labor sign. Just your body won't let you sleep. I had also slept for almost 24 hours the day before, which is another thing that happens. Your body will be like, we're in preparation. So we're going to sleep extra. And and I had had fitful sleep before that. So I had this really long chunk of sleep. And then I had more intense. Yeah. So I was I remember it was the middle of the night. And I actually tweeted. I actually tweeted there. I found the tweet the other day of me being like, well, I might be in labor. I'm not sure. Yeah. So watch the space. And I didn't I'm like, pacing my apartment getting freaked out because it's so scary. I mean, it was probably the scariest night of my life because I didn't want to wake my husband, because I wanted him to be rusted if I actually do go into labor. So I'm like, let me not wake both of us up. If he's getting some rest, that's good. And I can ask him, I really needed like juice or I needed something from the bodega and I wanted to wake him up so he could go get it for me. But I'm like, I'm not going to go get it. That's really clear. And I'm not going to wake him up yet. I'll wake him up at 6am. So it was like 1230. And I texted my midway. Five hours. You're like, I want this juice. That's what happened. I spent five hours just kind of pacing and being really terrified. And then when she finally answered me and I think she answered me at like 430 or 5am because she was up for another mom. And she said, okay, we got to do she had this particular protocol and I mentioned this on the Twitter space. Yeah, yeah, the best way to tell if you're in labor is to try and make yourself fall asleep by taking some meds and having it one alcoholic beverage. Just to try and shut your system down. So I was to have something in the house, either a beer or a glass of wine or in my case, I got champagne because I really like champagne. So I opened this bottle of champagne, which I had been like, I'm going to be so excited to drink my champagne. No, I was not excited at all was very terrified. Really didn't even like it was hard to get down because of all the stuff happening. And then it's like Benadryl Tylenol. I don't know. She had some like, take these pills, take exactly this many milligrams of each of these things and drink that drink. And if that doesn't knock you out, I'll be over. So let me know if it doesn't knock you out. Indeed, it did not. I mean, I laid down, I shut my eyes. I think I put on one of the meditations and my body was like, no sleeping. So that was the point at which I told her. And then she said, okay, I have to do this and this and then I will be over. And then I also texted my doula and said, hey, and you know, I think I'm going into labor. My husband wakes up. He goes to the store. He gets me the shoes, which I probably didn't even want by then. And then he also started to set up the blowup pool that we had rented. So if you're going to do it at home birth and you want to have it in a tub, you can get this blowup pool. And it was like the liner for it was the wrong size. They sent us the wrong thing. So he was freaking the fuck out. And I was like, I need you to text Maggie, the doula and ask her if she can bring one or just figure this out. And I'm going to go in the bath now and listen to my meditations because I can't. And I just hear him running around and he's all stressed out. And I just, I've never been more scared in my life than when I was in that tub hearing that like the thing we planned is not working. And Maggie can't get here yet and all the things. And I just lit candles and I was like trying to force myself to just be calm, but it was not happening. I was really bad. And it wasn't until my midwife showed up and came into the bathroom and like knelt down on the floor next to me and was like, how you doing? Better now. Holy shit. And then she checked me and she's like, wow, you're already six centimeters dilated. Nice work. And I was like, I've been thinking about the Lotus. Like they had all these visualizations. You have to think about your vagina opening like a lotus flower and you're supposed to do it all the time and just like whatever. So I'm just sitting in there waiting for her to get there thinking about the Lotus opening. And she's like, well, you did it. Nice. And then they got they got everything fixed and I went into the bedroom and got in the tub and they're all helping. Yeah. Yeah. And they set up a little speaker and had my meditations playlists going and the lights are all off and there's candles and everyone's whispering. And at that, I was basically in that room with that state around me for the next 11 hours until I finally gave birth. Wow. Did you. Did you have any of those kind of kind of like where earlier you were talking about how, you know, like you can, you can tap into that. Tap into that teacher guy and like have that communication or he would hear from his mom or whatever. Did you have any of those sorts of like interactions with other beings? I mean, I guess you mentioned like, like you talked to your, you were, you were talking with your, your child, with your daughter about like, okay, over that kind of thing. I don't think I had a lot of access to, I don't remember, I think. I just don't remember because I'm listening to guided meditation. So I'm listening to this like lady with a beautiful New Zealand accent. I love it. We sometimes imitate her now and like, it's pretty funny. It's like, you'll baby just the way she said certain words and stuff. They're like running jokes with me and my husband because we listened to that shit for 11 hours. Yeah. But also I have my midway from my doula there talking to me and talking me through things. And I plastered a smile on my face because I know that that tells your body. Right. They're good. And so it sends endorphins. So I just like, I sat there. There's a few pictures of me not smiling. And I'm like, oh, well, maybe I thought I was smiling and I couldn't even muster it because your body is just in such a state. I mean, the way you're taken over by it, it's like just so much else gets shut out and you don't have any space for people or what they're saying to you. And you can think about when you've had a bad fever or when you've just been really sick and you're just like really low, low bandwidth for other people's voices even. And that's kind of how I was when my one dog walked in at one point. And one of the only things I said ever. I said very few things during this 11 and a half hours. But one of the things I said was, I can't with the dog. The dog needs to go. I couldn't even say his name. I can't with the dog because he was panting and his little nails were clicking on the floor and I was like, Right. And one of my friends was there just to be with the dogs. We had a friend that that was her. Her entire purpose was to come and be with the dogs during the home birth. Not your friend anymore. She failed. She let him in. She was on a little break or she was in the bathroom. No, she's great. But yeah. So I had the birthing team and a few times I kind of lost it. Like I lost my focus and started out of the hypnosis kind of thing. And I started to get scared of the pain and I started going. Which was not, that's, you see that in movies, but that's not actually the way labor goes for everybody. And I think I started to get scared. So I started to act the way that you think you're supposed to act when you're scared. And my midwife just immediately it was like, no, no, no. Redirect it. You're going to, you're going to let all of your power out. You need to, you need to breathe it down. Cause that's the breathing is very like you take the breath and then you go. And you, you push it downward. And by the way, really, really great advice for getting a poop out. Okay. Ever on the toilet, anyone listening to this and you're like, and you're straining that you're wasting your power. You could, I know it's kind of gross cause maybe the bathroom doesn't smell so great in this moment. But you take a really deep breath and you just go. And you kind of think about the breath going down in a curve, like in a J through your body and I swear this is magic. It's magic. You'll be sitting there straining and suddenly you start breathing this way and it's like poop out. There you go. I, I would, I would be lying if there wasn't a point earlier in this conversation where I was thinking about, well, I'll never, you know, I'll never be able to use this for childbirth because my body's not wired that way. But I wonder how it would help with constipation. Yes. It for real and especially cause during pregnancy constipation is, is an extremely common symptom. So they have you practice your J breathing every time that you poop. Every single time. That's one of the ways that you prepare for pregnancy or for giving birth. Cause it's, it's the same stuff. It's the same place. You know, it's obviously a different hole, which I continually need to keep explaining to my daughter cause she doesn't believe me that there's three holes. But where? She's like naked looking. She's like, where? Where? I'm like trying to explain it to her. It's like, but yeah. She's like the, the pee pee and the baby comes out the same homo. It, it doesn't, but I, okay. You know what? You're seven. Do you have, do you have one of those old encyclopedias that has like layered, you know what I'm talking about? Like as a kid, you know, it's got like the multi transparency layers. So you can see different systems on each sheet. One day she's very interested in that kind of stuff. So at some, she loves X-rays. She's fascinated by X-rays. She always wants me to go on Google and show her X-rays of different parts of the body. So she could look at the bones. She's like, that's in me. That's right. I don't know. I definitely think like one of the, one of the great things that we've lost as a society because of the internet is just having incredible reference books in the home. I agree. Where kids, you know, like, you're not even in the, you have no idea that they're like studying anatomy or whatever because they just, they're like, I know that this book has knowledge in it and I'm going to flip through it until I find things, you know? Yeah. I remember encyclopedias. Yeah. I remember looking stuff up based on the letter of the volume. Right. Yeah. Yeah. And my dad, my dad very much, he raised me like anytime I was like, Hey dad, what does this mean? What does that mean? He'd be like, go to the dictionary. Look it up. I don't have time for you. You go find out for yourself. Yeah. Yeah. So during the, like, during, I guess the, I'm guessing that, you know, like the actual part where the child is coming out of your body, like that's probably one of the more intense parts of the labor process. Did you find that you stayed in that, in that hypnotized state throughout that? Or did you like pop in and out of it a few times? Or what was that like? Well, this is probably the best part of my story. Okay. Okay. So I was, let's see, I don't think I need to give all the details about how I got to the point of pushing, but once I started pushing, and just the first time she said, okay, push. So I started pushing and it felt so good. Uh-huh. I was like, I thought this was the part that was going to be horrible. And instead, every time I pushed, it was like having an orgasm. Right. So not the exact experience of orgasm, but like, just pleasure, just coursing through my entire body upon pushing. And, and I actually still have this connection is like, I guess neural connection down there that when I do certain exercises, it feels the same way. Oh, wow. I feel like I'll be out like bar class. And I'm like, yeah, I like this. And I'm like, nobody knows. Nobody. I'm very much enjoying this particular exercise. Um, like fire hydrants and just different things that we have to move those, those parts. Um, yeah, it feels really good still, just like it did in labor. So I'm pushing and she says, stop. And they're like, are you okay? And I'm like, I am. Great. I'm fantastic. Wow. And I didn't have to. She completely knew, right? She, I told her after, and she was like, oh, because she kept going, how are you doing this? You're so strong, which may be something she just says to all women who are giving birth as like encouragement, but she doubled down on it a lot after the fact and was telling me like, I just haven't really seen that. And, uh, the way that like how calm or how whatever she, she was very, uh, adamant that it was unique or rare. Okay. Um, which is neat. Like, oh, dope. Cause I wasn't going for orgasmic birth, but then that's what happened. Well, I mean, for me, like, I obviously, for me, I just, from, from other stories I've heard other people, like my, my, my sister with, I think her second child, like the timing didn't work out. So she didn't get any painkillers and she just kind of wound up having a natural childbirth even though she hadn't planned for it. And afterwards, like on her reflection, she didn't say all of the words, but I'm very good at reading facial expressions where she was like, it was actually like a surprising experience. And I'm like, oh, you had, with your, with your childbirth and then, you know, and I've had other, uh, other friends who have told me, you know, she's like, you know, like this one woman who's like, she's had five kids. And she's like, I love giving birth. Like it's a great experience. And I'm like, okay. All right. Also, uh, for most people gets easier. Well, yeah, yeah, yeah. Not everybody. The first one's always the hardest, typically. Which, honestly, for 11 and a half hours, I was pretty happy because homebirth, because you're not in a rush, cause hospitals will rush you. They want you. They want, they got into. Sure. Yeah. They've got, they've got a schedule. They want to induce. They want to push things through. Right. Yeah. So I, I did push a little bit because, uh, like I said, my water never broke. And, and so you get examined throughout the whole process. So she kept examining me and she's just like, it's basically got a slow leak. The sack. So it's going to take a really long time is what's going to happen. And I had a few complications. I couldn't pee at some point because my daughter's head was blocking it. Cause it's just one hole, mom. Yeah, it's just one hole. And I explained this to, I'm like, your head got, it pushed on it. I promise it's a real thing. Uh, and I was trying to pee for the longest time. And eventually they were like, okay, we got to do a catheter because, um, you need to pee and whatever. So then I got to experience the catheter, which was actually not painful and was very relieving. And I'm like, man, wow. And I don't have, it's, I went from having to pee really badly, to not having to pee at all. And I ain't do anything except lay here and take a deep breath and then let the breath out while you inserted this thing. Uh, 10 out of 10. Great. Great. It's catheter. I highly recommend it. But yeah, I like, I had that. And then she came over to me and she's like, okay, I want to be clear. I'm not rushing you. This was not part of your plan. What I'm about to suggest. And you can just say no. Uh, but my thought is we could burst the sack and she shows me this tool that she has. We could burst it. It won't hurt the baby. Um, and it'll just basically put you into the, the part where we need to start pushing right away. Right. And I was like, yeah, do it. Yeah. Go for it. And she's like, okay, are you sure? Cause it's not part of your plan. And I was like, I want to meet my kid. It was, I was totally willing in general to, to have a really long like days long labor. I, I was fine, but by that point, I just wanted to see my baby so badly. Yeah. And it was, I think it's related to my OCD. Sometimes I have this, uh, just compulsion to be able to see something that has been hidden from me. This is a very specific thing, but it'll be like a magician is holding the hat over this thing. And they're about to open it. And I get this like, Oh my God. Let's go. I just have no patience. Yes. Yeah. And I can't think of other examples of this, but it happens in my day to day where I get like intensely frustrated with something like that. And I have to breathe. But I was so fucking over it at that point. I was just like, I need to see my child. I need to hold my baby. This is bullshit. I don't want to be here anymore. And so I just said, yeah. And then we advanced to the labor part right away. Yeah. Cool. Have you, um, since then, have you had any other experiences with self hypnosis? Hmm. Well, I kind of, uh, whenever I get sick. Yeah. I try and implement it because I do think it just like the pain of childbirth at the pain of anything you could, um, talk yourself out of to an extent, if not completely. And, um, and so one time I was about to throw up and I meditated and it, it calmed down. And this was when we all had a really bad stomach virus. And I managed to get through the virus without ever actually throwing up. And maybe I just had a pared down version of it. I don't know. But I was about to run to the bathroom and I just started trying to breathe and, and like get, and I basically, uh, fell asleep while doing the meditation and I woke up and, and the nausea had abated. So I do think if I'm in a good enough frame of mind, I can utilize those tools also every month when I get cramps. Right. It's always an opportunity for me to sit with the pain. Um, and there's a, it's interesting because if you really pay attention to that menstrual pain, it is a mixture. And I think this is this, I think it's probably the same for everybody, but it's very subtle. There's a subtle euphoria that accompanies the pain because your body is going, okay, we're in pain. Let me send you some endorphins. Let me like try and help you, which is basically how the natural birth process happens is that once you get over the hump of the pain, your body is sending you enough chemicals that it, uh, it's natural painkillers are just in your body. So whenever I get my period, I have mital. Um, it, I, it's always, I'll put it on my desk and I just, I'm like, I could. Yeah. Do I want to? And so every once in a while, maybe like once or twice a year, I take mital during my period and inevitably I regret it. And it's weird. It's like, uh, I feel what it, I can really feel what it's doing. Right. And a lot of it's like caffeine. There's caffeine in there, but there's just, you know, I think it's like acetaminophen and a few other things. Um, I can feel the way it's dulling the sensation and then I get really sad. Yeah. And it's like, I can't feel the euphoria anymore either. Right. Right. Yeah. Cause it blocks off certain receptor sites, right? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So I just, I get sad now every time I take it and I, so I raw dog, um, Yeah. Every month. Have you read? I'll smoke weed, but like, I can't during the day when I'm working. So that's just a nighttime reprieve. But during the day, I need to like be able to stay focused. You know. The, yeah, the thing, the thing that kind of came to mind for me with that is, so the other day I was interacting with somebody on Twitter who was talking about like, I don't get it with saunas, like what's the point getting all hot and sweaty or everything. And I was like, well, you know, when you overcome that resistance, like there's, there, there, there, they're actually, you know, like for my experience, like in sweat lodges, right? Like when you get over the resistance to the heat, when you get over the, the, the, the icky feeling about being uncomfortable. And once you're able to like drop all of the reactivity, like there's actually like an incredible bliss that's going on underneath that, right? And, and, you know, and like going back to, you know, like Socrates where he, he basically says like pleasure and pain share the same route. Like any pleasant experience, if you look at it closely enough, is also painful and vice versa. Any painful experience if you, if you get in there close enough, right? Like there is that, that pleasant, that pleasure is, have you read the red tent? I haven't actually read it, but I've had a conversation about it. And it kind of points to like, you know, like a different cultural experience where, you know, when women are in that part of the month, where they're going to have cramping and everything, they really like, they get to like, drop all of their social roles and just go into, just go into their like bodily experience and stuff. And that, like talking about like meditation and, and just being really in tune, like, you know, if you've got that like half of a week or whatever, where every month you just kind of like, okay, it's time for me to stop being social and just be in my process. It's like, you know, that's where I think, you know, I, I think like where we still have that, that, that carryover where quite often women are much more sensitive to inter mysteries than men are, because there is so much more of that, that has just like been inherited through, through, you know, through, through female lines and what, whatever. Yeah. And we just experience it every month. So like that's a lot to experience something every month from the time you're like an early teen. Yeah. Yeah. Just that's wild that every single month we're dealing with that and dealing with our reproductive system and thinking about it and, and just having to, I don't know, tap in also the week before is, I'm just so, I have so much more testosterone. So I'm just like angry and want to fight everybody. And unless I remember to take my Chinese herbs, which I just re-upped, I just got a new bottle from my acupuncturist. These things, if I remember to take them and they're big, which I hate swelling pills and they're pretty big. And I, I'll like have this inner conflict about, I really want to take it, but I don't want to choke on it. And I often will choke on it because I'm just terrible at taking pills. I don't know. It's so mind over matter, but I had a bad experience once and ever since then. It's, it just sometimes it's really hard and sometimes it's easy. But if I remember to take those the week leading up, especially I'm way more balanced. My hormones are way more balanced and it's really nice. So I prefer something like that to, I don't know, just drinking a lot more coffee or whatever other ways we try and numb it is like, this is more like, I'm going to balance you internally with basically my, my acupuncturist is always like, this is food. These things are food. They're not, these are all things you could just be having in a salad. Right. Yeah. Right. But it's in pill form. So here you go. Yeah. Got it. What is in here? White peony, pariah, Dongkwai, ginger, mint, licorice, a few things I can't pronounce. I guess the one other question I was going to ask was the, if you, if with hypnosis, have you ever had any kind of like a past life regression kind of experience with that? Yeah. Yeah. Well, I did like a, I worked with someone on that and, and was able to really quickly go and it was like, I had a session with Shaman and we were trying to find the root of some like recurring relational issue that I always have and went back into a past life and saw myself as this like, not a farmhand. It was like, I was a girl in a village who got taken in by a family to help with their kids. And then the mom, I don't remember this whole thing, but like the father was abusive and the mom died and I was pretty sure the father killed her. And then I took the kids and ran away with them and then he hunted me. Oh, wow. But that was, yeah. And it was like, fuck. I mean, I know I'm just like, I'm just saying what's coming up and who knows how the validity of any of this, but it felt very real while I was in it and I like cried as her and it was wild. And stuff like that. I'm very, it's very easy for me to drop into. Not that I, maybe I don't do it all the time because it's so easy and I feel like I'll be disconnected from here. If I do that shit too much, but like, but someone's like, Hey, want to do a shamanic journey? I'm like, yeah, let's go for it. And then I'm, I'm there. I can tap in really quickly. So. Yeah. Cool. Well, that's a whole can of worms that maybe we could explore some other time. I know that, I know that you've got, you know, you've got a lot going on and your, your morning started a little jerky, but I really, I appreciate you, you know, like following through and just having this chat. It's been a lot of fun. Yeah. Thanks for the great questions. And so I think that's the most in-depth. I've told that whole story. Ever.

Vin is stating the obvious that's my name on Twitter then. Oh, okay. Well fair enough Vin is stating the obvious So tell me about yourself. Mmm. That's always a really interesting question to answer I guess it really depends what is most relevant for me to like bring out I guess I know you we know each other from Twitter specifically teapot So I'm gonna focus a lot more on that and like what I find interesting about that and hopefully people will okay Well actually here. I'll jump in and I'll stop you because we were we were both in a Twitter space and The topic of podcasts came up and I mentioned that that I have one and that mine is sort of Metaphysically spiritual meditation Oriented and you were like hey, I want to I want to I want to come share So I'm guessing that that means that maybe you have some stories to tell about your own experience with Meditation or metaphysics or or spiritual encounters or mystical experiences. I looked yeah I looked I looked before we started talking at your bio And I was trying to make out the bit of Hindi and Greek that was in there Interesting and so I got I got a translation that you're pointing to Sumon and Dorothea As far as I can tell Sumon wrote An interesting yoga book and I don't I didn't get as far as Dorothea So what what do these things mean to you? What do these names mean to you? Okay, so long story short there. They're my parents. Oh Okay, so nothing terribly symbolic about it, but So is your is your father in Hindi and your mother Greek? Well there He is of Indian origin and my mother is not Greek, but she is like Catholic so Dorothea just means Beloved a gift of God or God's gift and that's like a very common like Catholic Christian name I suppose So those are like my and that's why I'm like the scion of like Subhagan and Dorothea Because I'm literally a kid And that Yeah, I've tend to like be very wary of sharing information about like Ancestry or like anything that vaguely hints at race or like my religion Mainly because there's a lot of Discourse shall we say or authority disputes about who is allowed to say what about other people's religions or other people's race? And I try to like stay as chameleon like as possible Until someone like forces me to like use a car or something and I so far have been quite adept at that I've never had to like bring out my as a XXX or as a person of blah blah in words like bolster some Epistemic claim that pertains to religion or race or whatever identity you might have So that's yeah, just a short Introduction about look my bio As for like spiritual practices, yeah, I so just a little bit more background I currently live in Borneo. I grew up in Borneo. I study elsewhere in like, you know in the UK And I was traveling for a while for quite a bit in the last 12 months But I've now come back here Setting out furiously all my applications for like masterful programs and jobs But in the meantime, it's like relatively chill, you know, like I'm not doing anything I'm just like taking the dogs out meditating and having like Spiritual I've like that doing podcast and like spiritual practices and what have you and So there's a lot of time for me to reflect and that's kind of how I kind of stumbled into like the Twitter spaces that you and I were both in And we started talking about like spirituality and what was it homeless? And Yeah, so what else is there? I don't know. Would you like to like prop me and ask me more questions before I go off on the rails or something? Yeah Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Um, so Well, I mean maybe this will just take you where you were gonna go off the rails what What's your what's your what's your background as far as meditation goes like how long have you been meditating? What drew you to it? Did it come to you through your family? Or was it something that you discovered more kind of on your own in your in your in your in your University years or what does that look like? definitely not for my family, but It was very early on that sometimes people might mistake it as coming from my family. So I started meditating when I was eight So I've had like literally decades almost like two decades now Under my belt of like just meditating, but it's been on and off as as of late like recently It's not been as quite as consistent But I started meditating when I was eight because I was reading a book and it was a children's book That was on the theme of like peace and they covered like it was a little anthology that like covered all these stories and moral Moral fables from all around the world and one of the stories was about the Buddha And there was like a picture of the Buddha in like lotus position And I don't even remember the story very well But I just remember seeing that picture with him cross-legged and I was like, huh, I want to do that And it was funny because like the story went something along like oh Buddha with his prince and Gautama and like he Meditated on a Bodhi tree and then achieve enlightenment and I was like, I didn't know what enlightenment meant back then I was just eight after all, but I just thought like hey, that seems really cool. I want to achieve this like spiritual Buddhahood and like powers and all the things that come with it Obviously, I was thinking from like a very like eight-year-old ego perspective But I just started like meditating from then on and it did kind of like have a lot of benefits From the from the get-go because I started like having better attention and focus and I did much better in school because I was just like a better breather than like most of my friends and I think I kept that until like To today as well and that seems like a really weird thing to say like I'm a really good breather But it's true like no, not there's a lot of like my emotional regulation and Like a lot of the things that I take for granted It just happened to have like originated from this very Formative period in my life when I started breathing really well and to start taking it like seriously I mean, I'll jump in and say, you know, I So I work now as a as a massage therapist and talk about like seeing some good breathers and seeing some bad breathers, you know one of the first things that I'll ask my clients to do is take a deep breath in through their nose and and Breathe out through their mouth and let out the tension in their body with a sigh and to try to maintain that kind of breath throughout and some people will take that first breath and then they will lay there for the next hour With their with their lips pursed Absolutely trying to breathe as little as possible Where as some people, you know, will be will be really into the breath the whole time and I can tell that they're really, you know Taking the work seriously. So I I see I see plenty of bad breathers. I can I can definitely relate to that. I I'm curious. I Mean so as starting starting out with this as an eight-year-old like Was there a moment where your mom or your dad walked into the room and saw you sitting there, you know Eyes closed legs crossed on the floor and did they have some kind of a reaction? I mean, how did that how did that play out for you? And and how and how long would you sit for when you would sit to meditate? Sometimes a bit too long for sure. Okay, so I Probably too long some of the time because I was supposed to like You know get up early and prepare for school and instead of and this is what I would normally like meditate instead of like Getting ready early and going through like my Preparation quickly. I sometimes just like sit on the other toilet seat and just While I was shitting just like meditate and like let the water like flow on me. It's sort of like a like I imagine myself in a Underwater fall or something. It was very peaceful. It was nice. I guess it was me procrastinating and my parents would they weren't like Shocked or like surprise. They would just be like really irritated that I was taking my own sweet time in the toilet And like knock on the door like It was like, okay fine time to get out of my like my Buddhist like my my meditation mode I didn't really see it as a very Buddhist thing back then, but I guess now I Respectively I do look at anything. Yeah, that was I mean obviously was inspired by An image of the Buddha, but it wasn't like I wasn't taught. I just like looked at a picture like I'll do that So it was for the longest time I didn't even really know what I was doing until I realized that there are like proper meditation Guidebooks and I so slowly picked it up and added it to my like regimen, right now. I mean I remember Years back there was a time where I was listening to some Vedanta podcasts and there were stories of You know some of these some of these guys, you know for like the 1800s where you know, like as a kid This this guy who you know later becomes a monk was like Meditating as a child and he and and he was like talking to someone who became his teacher anyway So basically talking about like how as a child like he would he would Before falling asleep He would like like this this this like light would appear in his mind's eye And he would kind of focus on it until he got drowsy and started falling asleep. Did you in your in your childhood? Did you did you have those sorts of like phenomenal experiences as well? Yes? Yeah, so I so mine wasn't a light It was like a candle. Well, I guess that's a light Yeah, it's very specifically a flame that I control the intensity of with my breath So as I was exhaling it became more bright as I was inhaling it like subdued it And that was me like consciously focusing on a an object I think this is a form of meditation in some cases as well. Maybe I'm not exactly what What they they call it? I think I've heard heard it been called like fire casino I certainly didn't have a term for it I just kind of like imagine a candle while it's meditating and this is like one of my earliest forms of like meditation technique where it was like focused on an object. I don't do that as much anymore. I'm more geared towards like open and monitoring Meditation where I'm just like leaving my senses out in the open and seeing where it takes me and observing it without non-judgment I'll try to control anything. Yeah, and that's a much more. Yeah Relaxing way to meditate or like it suits my like purposes more so than the fire candle thing but Yeah, there's just so many ways to meditate and that's indeed one of the ways that I Lashed upon when I was younger. So so how early on did that sort of phenomena start occurring for you? Or was that almost, you know, was that like did that come right along at at eight years old? That's probably like maybe a few months or maybe a year after I started like Doing it while I was eight. I don't know why I started imagining it as a As a flame in my head. I think I Had different ideas of what the purpose of meditation was back then than I do now I think back then I just thought the point of meditation is for you to Improve your focus to have better concentration and what better way to do that then then trying to like force any distracting thoughts out of your head and focus only on like the one thing that you're imagining and the flame exercise just came quite naturally to me. I Am Moved away towards that. Yeah. Yeah, so so then if at the time you thought that you know developing focus building concentration was kind of the point of meditation what What then, you know, do you think is the point of meditation now? Oh I think there is no point. I think they're right now. Like I think meditation is just being and Having the sensation of like existence. They're just like being in your body or being a mind Either way, you know an embodied mind or a mind in mind of body and feeling that like oneness with yourself and Realizing this oneness can also extend to like the universe around you and all of it is just like one Happening is like the whole point of it Which is to say that there is no point And I think this also shows up in like my life philosophy in my tour bio if you have you take a glance there It's kind of like the ethos of my life that I Picked up ever since this is like a direct result of like meditating which is that there is no point to life It's it's all quite pointless really but like in a fun way and Once you start to like view life through those lens it's less of a problem to be solved and more of an experience to be just like experience enjoyed Suffer to even and none of it is I like neither is I have a good or bad and that seems to like Give a lot more perspective and Calmness in like my life Not that it's like the point or anything. It's just like this is like my realization. Yeah, yeah I mean, I I will tend to tell people You know like when talking about the meaning of life that the meaning of life is the meaning that you give to your life, right? like objectively not everyone is going to think or feel that that the meaning of life is the same thing because we all You know, we all have an authorship or authority over our own Narrative and so that that kind of meaning or that that pointed miss is really ultimately kind of subjective. Yeah So what What's your you mentioned University and you mentioned that you're you're kind of in in the in the Steps towards working on your masters. What what is what's that look like? What what is what what's your trick trajectory there? right, so Masters that's a there's a whole can of worms, but I okay, so I've been like on the Trying to get on the masters bandwagon for quite a few like months if not years now and I Vastly quite a lot initially. I thought like yeah, I'll go into like this really cool masters call like cognitive science of religion That didn't end up happening and I thought like I need to do something more like General and I thought about doing a sociology degree and I did get in I did get an offer to do one But then I had to reject it for financial reasons and also because I thought my heart's just not going to be in it and now I'm currently in the process of like applying to my you know my Real masters or the one that I think I would do quite well in And that's a masters in like meta ethics or like just practical ethics, I suppose Which gives me like a strong foundation in So when people say like meta ethics Meta-meta ethics is like not a branch of ethics. It's actually a branch of like metaphysics and I think people Really underestimate the Importance of having like really strong metaphysical. Sorry, meta ethical slash metaphysical foundations And how that like relates to ethics, but that's like a whole, you know, very esoteric Aspect of like philosophy that I don't want to go into unnecessarily But that's currently what I'm what I'm interested in doing. I want to like go into like ethics practical ethics and study that and solve problems that are very Very academic, I suppose the one that I'm currently interested in is like the problem of natural agency But yeah, that's another story. Well, let's I mean I'm into esoteric philosophies So tell me a little bit about that Cool. Okay. Yeah, I'd love to Talk more about this. Yeah, so Natural agency or the problem of natural agency is basically the idea of like, how do we reconcile our scientific natural worldview? Which presupposes? We are objects governed by the laws of nature with the idea of ourselves as agents meaning we are responsible for our actions and we Act in ways that people act so we have we are capable of respond responsible action personal action and so Are capable of accruing blame or credit to our name? and Those two things are sometimes seen as very contradictory like this is most Familiarly like presented to us in the free will versus determinism debate where you know, if you're Scientifically determined by the laws of nature, etc Then how can you be responsible for anything that you do and yet? We still have legal systems that assign responsibility to like criminals for the crimes that they've committed So they're capable of action. So we have supposedly action according to the One worldview, which is the worldview of agency the worldview of laws and Responsibility Etc. But on the other worldview, which is the worldview of the scientific naturalist the scientific determinist everything is already pre-decided by like the laws of nature and The problem therefore of like pro natural agency is how can you? naturalize agency how can you realize responsibility for us as agents while also fitting us in this scientific worldview So that's yeah, basically what I'm interested in clarifying so Do you do you have a stake in in one camp for the other as far as determinism versus agency or free will I Think I think both of them are correct and they're not contradictory in the ways that people Think it is okay like there are so many ways to like frame the determinism and the free will debate Yeah, and I won't go into that Which is why I don't Speak about my work in terms of like oh, I'm working on free will I don't do that I think a lot of people do that and kudos to them For like exploring the free will debate in that way, but I like to focus on agency, you know on its cousin Framework, which is the agency and naturalism debate and this is a like much easier It's a much simpler framework to work with because you're not distracted by that that objective of free or like freedom and that's like an artifact of like Prost of the Protestant Reformation to be honest and and so instead I get to like just focus on Agency and how we can naturalize it so rather than coming up with like Oh, can we make a will that is free from determinism? My question is can we make an agency or coming can come up with an agency that is Natural to the scientific worldview and that's a much more feasible way to like approach the problem from That makes sense I don't I don't I'm not entirely sure I will say that You know for my for my own personal experience. I remember in like 11th grade in in an English class There was you know the topic of of free will Versus, you know predestination or whatever it came up and you know Some people were taking one side and some people were taking another side and in in my mind I just I like I intuitively knew that like well This is a silly argument because it is both at the same time But in a way that's impossible to explain almost Okay, I could I could feel I could feel how it was a both and answer But I couldn't I couldn't verbalize it, you know in in the midst of the debate I was just like, huh This is obviously a silly argument because both of these things are like Simultaneously true and I do think that there's a lot of I do think there's a lot of life That really is kind of just on rails, but there are these there are these moments, you know, where Where where like for me personally, you know, like I'll have I'll have like an inner impulse to take an action and Sometimes I will follow that impulse and take that action and sometimes I will willfully ignore The desire to take that action and I feel like for me at least that's at least a reflection of what that kind of looks like Yeah, I mean that that's certainly how a lot of people like frame the free will debate and I think For me at least The question of whether you really chose to go with your impulse or not is Slightly beside the point not entirely, but we'll get it back to that Okay, what is more relevant to me is like are you responsible for the action that happens after that and for a lot of free will How do I describe these people people who are on the free will end of things they say that well Freedom of will is like a precondition to be responsible and the determinist on the other side You've got determinists who are like well, you don't have free freedom of will, but you're still responsible And so I'm more interested in that the question of responsibility Regardless of whether someone is free or not free to make that choice Because that's really where like the crux of the debates and the stakes are especially when it comes to like legal cases, but also in like assigning like Understanding how that works in a scientific context. So for me, it's less so about freedom and more so about Responsible will rather than freedom rather than free will so Do you think then like are there certain cases in which you would say well this person in this circumstance is not responsible and This other person in this different circumstance or the same person in this other different circumstance is responsible Like how do you how do you tease that out? Yes, so quite a lot of the time in at least in the free will framing That question of responsibility depends on like your degree of freedom So if you were free and how away you and I like to find that then then and only then are you responsible for it? But people can recognize that in situations where you're not free as in situations of coercion Someone's got your gun to your head is like the prototypical example Then you're clearly not free and therefore you should be absolved of any responsibility that occurs under those circumstances Now there are some like really strong Positions that like and that seems intuitive to us right because we have like this particular viewpoint that is a result of like liberal histories But there is a like strong viewpoint against that that says that no even if you had a gun to your head You would still be responsible. You're like and not completely absolved of the responsibility, but it is diminished to a certain extent and I think that The position that I think that I begin from like if an action comes from you Even if it was coerced by someone else, you still have like a very small Responsibility, however, like mitigated that responsibility that might be even though you lack like freedom in a you know Common understanding of what freedom means in these situations. So Like working from there. I want to like understand like okay, what are like the levels that one can be Responsible for depending on like what abilities one has in Situations that you know has varying degrees of freedom Does that make sense? I think so. I mean so as as you were kind of describing that like the The particular The particular example that came to mind for me actually had to do with like prisoners of war in World War two, right? So you have these aviators who like, you know, they're doing bombing runs over Germany or whatever They're playing get shot down. They wind up parachuting. They wind up getting caught put in prison in a POW camp and now You know like the normal the normal human responses You just do whatever you have to do to survive Whereas, you know for these soldiers, you know, their responsibility was Like first and foremost always be trying to break out always be trying to undermine the enemy like You're even though you're a prisoner You're still a combatant and it's still you're like moral or military duty to be fighting the enemy Even if you're front, you know, even even if you are, you know, like imprisoned in that way I don't know if that is that is that is yeah. Yeah, go on So I this is interesting because like I think it reflects a difference in like our intuition difference in intuitions of like responsibility or like responsibility attribution for a civilian it might be said that any form of like self-interested behavior where they cave into like the enemy's demands is Acceptable or excusable and so they're like off the hook so to speak. They're not responsible for protecting state secrets in the face of the enemy because their Responsibilities to themselves, but when you're like a non-civilian when you're like a member of the military you have different responsibilities and you're absolutely responsible for making sure that Important senses of information doesn't fall into it So even if you are coerced to do all sorts of things and like our tortured You're still responsible for your actions in that situation and you're less excused if you do give into the self-interested motivations that Someone who is a civilian might not be like subject to and so I think this is like really interesting difference in like responsibility attribution where You are subject to the same level of constraints and Coercion but some people are considered to be more responsible in these situations than others and a perfect example That would be the civilian versus like military personnel case So earlier you mentioned how like These questions around and maybe around free will or whatever Or confusion on the topic or whatever it kind of like it came as an offshoot as a result of the the Protestant Reformation and While I've got a mini mini equiple with the Protestant Reformation at large Which is kind of a joke but also kind of serious. How how do you feel that that how did how did how did What do you mean when you say that? Yes, okay. I love this because I was slightly flabbergasted as well when I first discovered this. I was like, oh my god. This is like Changing my entire like worldview and orientation because what does it mean that free will is like this Western concept or like not even a Western concept But like this early modern Protestant concept that comes specifically from Luther as far as I can As far as I'm aware at least according to like my studies because before Luther you have theologians such as Aquinas and Augusta St. Augustine and St. Augustine and Aquinas Although they're not like Catholic well They are Catholic. Yeah, I mean Thomas Aquinas was very Catholic, right? He was like praying not to become a Catholic, but like Exactly, but like Augustine as well Sorry like they are Catholic, but like it's slightly a slight bit of an anachronistic title to apply that to These early pre-Protestant theologians, especially Augustine because he could have been like orthodox and they could have easily acclaimed them Anyway, I mean my understanding of Augustine is he was kind of a failed neoplatonist, right? Yeah. Yeah, very much So very much so but for simplicity's sake, let's just call them Catholics Okay, so these Catholics like pre-Protestant theologians Didn't have the same idea of freedom of will that like Luther had they had like liberum arbitrium which translates more correctly as freedom of choice which we've now like mistranslated in The freedom of will but freedom of choice is slightly different from freedom of will because freedom of will and will is Voluntas in Latin wasn't described in terms of freedom or unfreedom It was described as like good will or bad will so you had bonavontas or mala voluntas And it was up to your free choice to choose to decide between The good will or the bad will so it wasn't your will that was free It was your choice that was free. It was your arbitrium your ability to judge and to adjudicate between Whether you went with the free will sorry with the good will or the bad will right and so for me This this feels like it's kind of pointing back to that thing where like I might have that intuitive push that says okay You should get up and go do some exercise and I have the choice to to do that Which is good, you know because it helps build the strength in my body and blah blah blah Or I have the choice to ignore it and keep watching YouTube which is bad because I'm being slothful or whatever, right? Yeah Like it's the way I would phrase that in like Monday terms We've got like bad impulses and we've got good impulses and the bad impulses are not so overwhelming that you cannot choose over them and opt for the good thing like putting down the Turning off like the YouTube tab and start doing exercise or whatever And the same thing is like true for like Aquinas and Augustine and they they think that you are responsible for that choice whether you choose like The good will the bad will now this all changes come the Protestant Reformation And this is part we do to like theological reasons because Luther was going up against the church And they wanted him to recant some of the statements. He made Against the church and for his like what would then be Lutheran? Denomination and new understanding of the faith and so he stands before them in the diet of I can't remember Which one we was the diet of worms or something anyway before the the pope So and then he says it's out of my hands. I can do no other here I stand the spirit has compelled me and my will is not free and so he changes like the whole Emphasis on freedom of choice to freedom of will like his will is now So overwhelmed by the will of the spirit by the divine will that he cannot he just has no power to choose or resist the will of the Holy Spirit and so from then on the focus on free will becomes more apparent and And it's there that we have from Luther that we get the idea of like freedom of will and that becomes so central to Christian like Protestant Christian framings of responsibility and agency that completely Overwhelms even like the previous Discourse around responsibility by people like Aquinas Augustine To me like the kind of the kind of the thing that like jumped out to me from that is that like Theologically speaking alone, you know, just like to look at the Bible that seems kind of absurd right because Jonah Jonah is the perfect example of someone who like the Divine will has given him clear instructions and he has gone and made the very personal choice of ignoring them and running the other way Exactly, right? It's resistible like divine will is there, but it's like resistible by Jonah But here is like Luther being like no God's will is too powerful It's a resistible and for me to like state otherwise it'd be like blasphemy or something and this is like in the context It makes sense because he's literally being put on trial and he's being told like we can't And so if you have like a get out of jail free card by saying like oh, it's out of my hands God made me do it right. I couldn't possibly change my mind even if I wanted to that Kind of like invoking a I was born this way kind of argument. I was like this is innate This is like natural. It's coming from a higher power than me. I can't change it So if you're not like taking me down, you're gonna take the big guy down with you as well So that's like a very clever thing that he did but at the same time it introduces like all this Mess about like can you be responsible for your beliefs now? I personally think that it's obvious and commonsensical that you can be responsible for your beliefs But a lot of people seem to like find this very abhorrent like no, of course, I cannot choose my beliefs I would grow I grew up in my environment and there was all these like factors like but you can always change your beliefs anytime you want That's what I think a lot of people seem to think that this is you know Beyond their scope of responsibility and I think this is like a very reassuring fable that they tell themselves not to Yeah change their beliefs and I mean and I think this this actually could be a good point to kind of loop back on to the beginning Because you know for me in my own personal experience with meditation and particularly You know once you take meditation at the dosage of like a retreat kind of environment where you know what what I experienced and And and you know Anyone who's listened to enough conversations about meditation, you know I I distinctly experienced like a process of unlearning a process of like Dewiring certain Internal like in in in ways that I couldn't even describe what was happening because it was so subtle and so interior but you know like a resetting of certain priors such that like Belief systems that I had about how I should behave or or how I respond to different stimuli, you know Like it I kind of you know, like yeah that that like unlearning of of things really kind of comes into play there Yeah, absolutely like this is exactly what I What I find very difficult to convey to people we're very strong priors it's like very solidified against Change and for like very good reasons as well because I think not all beliefs are made equal some beliefs are like very flimsy They pertain to like every day They pretend to like very Marginal aspects of your worldview say for example. Oh, I think it's gonna rain tomorrow Or like I think it's not gonna rain tomorrow either way. It's not gonna like shatter your worldview if you're wrong, but Core beliefs such as like oh people are fundamentally good or fun people are fundamentally bad or equal or Free will exist free will doesn't exist If you change that then a lot of things that happen downstream of that also have to change and it's very destabilizing for a worldview And that's why people who the older you get the harder it is to like change these core beliefs Whereas if you can do that while you're a child Unless of course you get some kind of like Meditation slash like psychedelic experience which loosens all these your entire world view right down to like the core beliefs And then you're able to like tweak them and like dial them up or down depending on what you think is best without having to like cause a worldview shattering moment or destabilization so Yeah, it's all about like which how far how far down your priors you can affect Right, and some people find it very difficult to change our priors about God for instance because it's just so fundamental to a lot of things in their life like God is like the source of purpose and Meaning as well as like the foundation for their morality And anyone who doesn't share in these like foundational beliefs about God will look at that and think like You know this doesn't make a Superstitious how can you be so like irrationally dependent on God? But what these people don't realize is like God is a load bearing belief and it's so far down that you start shaking that load Everything that hangs on like is upheld by this pillar also has to come down and it's very yeah, it's very traumatic to do that Carelessly, yeah, yeah, and I mean and I think too like you know Some people you know even from like early childhood because of you know, but their parents or or or maybe their education or whatever You know like they this this this core belief Gets installed into them, you know before they're even at the at the driving wheel of decision-making That you know that like yes, this is your lot in life Your your your path is is is largely predetermined and you don't really have good choices and and so this You know so so the so the belief even that you can reset your priors is like to try to do so is actually You know an immediate challenge to a core belief about your own agency, right? Yeah, yeah, and that's partially because like There's the sphere of being responsible for your beliefs sometimes it can be very Overbearing to realize that you are responsible for a lot of the things in your life, right? especially when a lot of the things that happen to you happen without your consent and it's It's very difficult to Say to people that oh you might not be the cause of your trauma, but you're still responsible for making sure you don't behave from that state of mind and cause more trauma to other people and And I think this is where like the question of like are you responsible for the things that come before you? Not can be very De -stabilizing for people's sense of self because either way you you answer that having to like think through that in a new light can Not only result in like changes in worldview, but also changes in like self view the way you like view yourself Yeah, yeah, and as long as you As long as you believe in your powerlessness Then you kind of you get like a get get free out of responsibility card, right? Yes. Yes. This is very true. It's a bit like how if you don't have certain knowledge about For example state secrets then no matter how much someone tortures you they're not gonna be able to get anything out of you And so and in a way, it's like pointless For someone who doesn't have the knowledge likewise if you have certain beliefs about yourself There is an element of like get out of Jail, right card that comes with like not having not holding certain beliefs flash like knowledge about yourself and so I think there is like a subconscious Awareness of of this like greater responsibility if you do to hold on to certain beliefs And so people try to like avoid that in order to like not be accountable for For whatever it is that they might be made accountable for if they have these like beliefs Yeah, the other side of it too, or I don't even know if it's an other side, but it's another aspect maybe I don't know if you saw this it was going around a few months ago. There was a There was one day there was a post that I saw that it was like it was kind of a meme It was like oh my therapist told me that I should open up But I I told them that I couldn't and and here's and here's the illustration of why and it's it's it's a picture of like You know a Shelf unit with that's got like a glass door and you can see that the bowls on the shelf have tipped over and Yeah, are propping themselves against the door in such a way that all you have to do is open the door and You're basically guaranteed that the first three or four bowls are going to break and it's like, you know I can't I can't challenge I can't challenge or open up anything about my personality structure out of out of a fear be it Reasonable or unreasonable that doing so will cause immediate damage and I think I think I do think though that you know And because I've seen it, you know directly In some people where you're talking about like psychedelics and things like it it is very possible to push your To push your framework to a point where life simply becomes undoable afterwards at least until you know Maybe a very long deep period of healing and cleansing happens And rebuilding yeah, right? One thing I want to say yeah really quickly on that like transparent cupboard metaphor I Yes, obviously if you open that door and the bowls are going to come out and some of they're going to break But if you don't open that door, you're never going to be able to use those bowls, right? So it's yeah, it's one of those things where you have to like Yeah, if you're skillful enough, you might be able to like save 90% of the bowls But it's better than like not being able to use the bulls at all second thing I want to mention is Yes, people are really afraid of like doing psychedelics for this reason because it has been reported at least at least I know of this like anecdotally where people Take psychedelics for the first time and they've never had any like spiritual practice or mindfulness meditation and They do it and they hack they come out of And their entire world you have been like reset to like zero and and it's surprising how much of not only our thoughts and beliefs are contingent on like our beliefs but also like our abilities like feel emotions are also contingent on like our beliefs and our sense of identity and so not only do you Feel like liberated from thought structures and how you can see the world and beliefs about the world you also start to like Not feel the same emotions that And one extreme example of this is where someone did this like psychedelic trip for the first time without any of the scaffolding And suddenly wasn't able to like look at their Romantic partner we and feel like the romantic feelings that they have felt towards them it was just like completely absent for the first few months of Being have after like doing their psychedelic experience and I just found that really fascinating because you know, I think when I first did my Psychedelic experience I had already been We building the ego and like Reconstructing it and putting it back together where someone who has never done that before that's probably going to take A while for them to get back to like normal functioning and so whereas for people like me Having done a psychedelic trip that like eviscerates your ego It only takes me like a few more seconds to get back and like put it all back together again And I didn't realize this is why I tend to be very like apprehensive about The benefits of psychedelics because you know, it's been like on the whole very positive experience for me for some people who have never had the the what do you call this Religious scaffolding, I guess you want to say spiritual practice it can be a while before they're able to like rebuild their worldview and With that all the emotions that come with their sense of self And sometimes I can take weeks sometimes months. I don't know maybe even years Yeah, well the the thing that kind of comes to mind for me there, too. Is it like not I? think maybe equally You know I Guess what I want to say is like so, you know, and I've I think I've heard this anecdote in in like podcasts or something where You know somebody you know they go and they sit in a circle and they and they they have the experience with ayahuasca and then Afterwards, you know, they might they might talk to their ayahuasca and say, you know, like well while I was in there You know, like I was talking to these serpent beings and the serpent beings told me that they're the ones who created this reality And the ayahuasca says yeah, those guys always say that right and it's like if if you if if you go into you know, if you go into this kind of experience and Especially if you're someone who's who's prone to you know Or finds themselves prone to you know, like communicating with with with other beings, you know If you put your faith in what those other beings are telling you then you you know instead of resetting your priors to zero You might just be resetting your priors from you know, like your own, you know, like culturally prescribed false value to now some like You know some some some some mystically influenced false value And so you can't you wind up you wind up with the with the belief structure that is like, you know And you know to use I guess, you know just the most derogatory terms, you know Like basically like if you're taking on the beliefs of demons, you know Then you're you're doing a whole new kind of damage to your psyche, right? Exactly exactly and this is why it's so dangerous if you go into it without at least some kind of I don't know introductory Chorus in like what reality is ie like some metaphysics or ontology Because otherwise you just like take on whatever Metaphysical structures that are pre-existing that are there while you are deconstructing your own and that can be very dangerous, especially if you were like starting to see like demons or Voices that tell you very harmful stuff because most of those most of the time these entities are just like Constructs of your mind and if you can recognize it as such that's fine like you can just be like, oh, that's just like That's my self -destructive part. That's trying to get me to trying to get trying to get me to give it attention or whatever Yeah, that's like just that's like you know Eve who Something to tell you to do stuff and and sorry say that again That you said you know Eve or what was it you said that I had a little break up there Yeah, it was a throwaway joke, but like I just said like oh, that's my inner Eve. That's like my inner serpentine or something and Telling me to like do stuff that might not be in my best interest And that's fine as long as you recognize that this inner Eve is like your it's your inner Eve And like it's real for you, but if you start to like pretend that other people all I Collective subconscious then people are gonna start to think that no like you are being like weird and inconsistent like you don't make sense Which I'm sure from their perspective is true Even though like from your internals perspective that this makes this all makes perfect sense And it's just being able to like bracket that and realize like your internal reality. However real it is for you Doesn't scale or like does it doesn't apply to other people's subjective Well, well viewed and it shouldn't you shouldn't pretend like it is right now when you and when you say inner Eve I'm guessing there that you're like pointing to the story in Genesis, right of like Eve's eating the apple or Yeah, yes, I don't actually have an inner Eve. I just want to like point that out I just like thought this is something. Yeah, but most people what do you mean? You don't have an inner Eve Well, I have like inner voices and characters and you know And I give them names, but I don't have like one that's called eat without make sense It was just like a throwaway name that I have. Oh, okay. Oh, so you're so right. Yeah, you know I think I think it's really interesting too because I try to you know with with my priors with my understanding of things Which isn't all like this isn't all stuff that I was like This some of this is like stuff that I've come to you know later in life You know people talk about I talk about Genesis and they talk about the fall and and there's there's this sense that I you know has come come down through through the Christian Tradition of like this this sense of inherent sin or whatever But to me like as an adult in in reading this, you know like it's very clearly here where you know God has given them the agency to choose, you know Whether or not they they're they're going to partake in this fruit and the fruit is and like it's very clearly and directly described as the knowledge of good and evil which to to my understanding is basically like okay at some point, you know like Humanity basically got to choose duality, right? Like and so this whole dualistic framework that we live under of good and bad and and and and all of these things it's like, you know, I I'll describe it as you know like if If an eagle if an eagle, you know Catches a snake and and goes off to you know to eat it and feed it to its family or whatever Like is that good or is that bad? You know, it's good for the eagle. It's bad for the snake But in nature like it's it's not one or the other It's it's really natural. It's it's natural right and it's really just a matter of perspective as to you know Whether you're whether you're from the snake family or whether you're from the eagle family as to whether that was a good event or a bad event and And and and sort of you know like when when people talk about you know, like the pursuit and enlightenment or like You know non-dual Awareness like that to me that that's kind of like the the opportunity that we have To to go back to that like, you know that that that pre-fall Edenic state of you know being able to just take life as it is without ascribing You know these these these these these valences to it. Yeah, the goodness or badness to it. Yeah, yeah Yeah, just this is where we have more metaphorical, but like I completely agree with you on this. This is Best expressed and like that Taoist Shakespearean quote of like there is nothing out of good or bad But thinking makes it so and so it kind of depends on the perspective of the thinker or the thought-haver And so if you're like the snake having your thoughts, it's like, oh fuck. This is pretty bad for me But if you're like the eagle, you're like, this is this is dinner. This is good This is good for my kids and like my entire line of like eagles, right and And in nature itself, there is no like that valence especially if you consider nature to be like Without a mind you're not like all these agents within it Have their own like perspective Of these things doesn't have either good or bad. They're just like is Yeah Another way I try to describe it at one point to somebody was like if you look at If you look at everything as a massive equation, right? Like we look at additive properties as good and we look at and we look at subtractive qualities as bad But but they're all just parts of the equation like they're not good or bad You just you can't get to the result if you don't add something some places and subtract some things elsewhere, right? Yeah, exactly. And the the equation is just it just has to be balanced, right on both sides. So That's um, that's kind of how I see it And what else is there? Yeah, I guess, um, I guess this is the fundamental foundational story that we find in christian mythology and society where The foundation of like morality comes from like eating the apple. So apple eating is that first Glen bad are distinguished from each other and that is a very nice way of like metaphorizing um Valences and and the question of good and evil and I'm interested in that but Maybe less so in like that storied way. I think it's very interesting to like Have it packaged in the story that um When you're doing like a deep philosophical Meta ethical analysis of these things I Unless like plowry and so it does get tend to get quite dry when you get into like the the nitty-gritty of it But that's what I'm fundamentally interested in like what is like the foundations of good and evil And those are like meta ethical questions so Let me ask you about the fun stuff Um And and also let me check in real quick because we're we're coming up on about an hour Are you still good to keep going or do you do you feel like you're running out of I don't have anything else to do after this. We can go for like another 30 minutes. Okay. Yeah So, all right. So the fun stuff, um Be it well actually, okay So, you know, obviously, you know with whatever your psychedelic experience was like there are You know incredible, you know visual phenomena or or experiences that can occur Also with meditation these things can can occur as well. What are some of your wildest stories from the inner side? Okay, I've never had a visual hallucinatory And I think it's just partially because whatever I'm like in that state Or maybe it's the type of substance I'm doing or maybe I do you definitely do have like More conscious control of it But anytime I sense myself going into like that visual Hallucinatory mode and start seeing like visions or hearing voices. I'm like, nope Let's not do that. I I've got some trauma to heal and I instead bring it back And so what I instead get instead of like hallucinations is like faster refresh speed if that makes sense So I'm like going into like my my beliefs and like core beliefs and I'm tweaking them from the inside Um in a much more controlled setting. Um, and so like a lot of subconscious Stuff that I cannot access while I'm in normal consciousness, normal conscious state I'm able to do that while I'm in my trip. But during that trip. I'm not like Letting my visual imagination go wild. I'm like, oh, I could I could but like usually when I start see Melt a little bit. I'm like, oh Let's not waste any like brain power on visual hallucinations and instead like focus on like the beliefs and like My desire states and see if we can tweak that according to like my higher order Values and desires. So that's what I I mean, it's not very like a wild or like frenetic as some people have but it this is how I've generally tended to use like Psychedelics and I've only ever done like four different kinds of psychedelics in Uh, and this has happened in like the last six months. So It's I'm very much like a new I'll probably come across the time where like my second up my trips will be more Hository in in uh in nature. Yeah, I mean part of what kind of uh, you know came to mind for me there was that You know, I don't I don't know. I think maybe and and and I will say, you know, like, uh, you know Off the bat as it were, uh, I I also am someone who, uh, you know, I have had my I have had my experiences with psychedelics, uh, which, you know, it hasn't been a ton, but it's been enough for me And and uh to paraphrase the hunter as Thompson quote, you know, uh drugs alcohol You know, would I recommend them? No, but they've served me well, you know, and and and and and I don't I don't recommend them to other people because I kind of see it as like if you know, if the mind You know, if the mind is like a combination locker or you know, or whatever whatever kind of lock system you want, right? Um, ideally you you want to be able to find the key that opens the lock properly instead of jamming a screwdriver into it And I think sometimes sometimes those kind of psychedelic states can be like, all right, fuck it We're not going to worry about we're not going to worry about doing this the right way We're just going to do it, you know, and and I think that that can I think that that can damage Um, you know, yeah, that can't that can damage the uh the the subtle the subtle systems of the mind, right? Yeah, alternatively you could like go all the way and just like jam the lock so much that you end up like breaking it and I know But like he like some some of these people which should not be named Um, have like Have access to like an almost unlimited supply of these things so they can just like afford to like try their raid and eventually reach enlightenment that way But like if you're not like going to be doing this, um, like sustainably like sustainably and like consistently enough that it's probably Best not to get it jammed locked. Yeah, even even then I don't think that's the right I don't you know, and I guess there's that there's that dualistic, you know, right and wrong good and evil kind of thing to it But I don't yeah, I don't think that's the sustained like I think I think that you know on at the level of mind as far as like, uh, you know Reincarnation or whatever goes, you know, like I think I think there's I think there's a price You know that you might not see and I think there's a price to be paid for For for trying to you know break through the back door But uh, but but what I was going to say though as far as as far as like visual hallucinations and your resistance to them, um, is is that, you know The the potential there would be that, you know, like well, what if this hallucination is trying to show you something So that you can then like use the narrative of that visual as a reframing For whatever that other thing is that you're trying to get to You know, uh at at that at that deeper, uh deeper level as well Yeah Yeah, I should have like more narrative like, um Psychedelic formats like a dream format, but I I don't tend to have that. Maybe I will one day, but Um, I really can't speak to that because it's just not out within my remit of experience as of yet So so so taking taking taking psychedelics the other way as far as just meditation Meditation in and of itself. Have you done? Have you done high-dose meditation like Retreats of of varying lengths or anything like that? I have not. No, I have not I'd be really interested to do that though, especially like these like vipassana retreats, right and like Going entire week without speaking Having no access to like your phone. That seems like really intense, but also Everyone who I've spoken to about it has Really enjoyed like the purification that comes with it and I'm interested in like doing at some point, but Yeah, I mean currently I'm not in that economic situation to be able to pull off these kinds of things There's a lot of like my natural practicalities. I need to consider when thinking about it Well, I mean the nice thing about like if you were going to do like a go inka retreat is there there is no fee You know, um, you can donate nothing or you can donate, you know, uh, Whatever you can afford the the only real cost to you is the opportunity cost of taking two weeks off to go there And not be, you know, generating income at that time Yeah, so, you know, I don't I'm not saying you should but I'm saying, you know If you if you feel like the economic pressure is there like it's really only an opportunity cost thing It doesn't actually cost money, which is nice. Uh, it's it's a really huge benefit and the flight tickets as well Well, right. I mean, I don't know, you know, I don't I don't know, you know from Borneo I don't know where the nearest vipassana center is. I I'm almost surprised. There isn't one somewhere in Borneo You know, just because they they seem to have them everywhere. Um, but Uh, but but yeah, regardless, um Yeah, I've I've I've attended a few of those a few of those 10 day retreats myself and I can I can I can I can attest that um one of some of the more profound experiences that I had really were during that first retreat and On on the 10th day of that retreat, you know that you get Like the the the the vow of silence is broken and you get to communicate with your peers and everything And one of the one of the really interesting things that I found was that on that 10th day, you know Like while I was talking to it's to some of the guys about, you know, just life and in our experiences and all of these things I found myself at the time, you know, I was I was Recurgitating one of those stories that I always tell And as I was telling that story, like I I felt myself starting to get dizzy I don't remember the details of what the story was or what it was that I said within the story But there was something in there that that like it was no longer like it was no longer true um Not that I was saying something false just that like be it from the retreat itself having reset some priors or whatever Just like some of what I was saying was no longer true for me In it in as much as it was at the time when I had like internally written that script and that That speaking of untrue things like it made me physically dizzy And so there's there's a that that was a really interesting phenomena that I experienced of of just like the the destabilizing power of Saying things that that are no longer true for oneself I Sorry say say that again Hello, hey, hey there you you're back. I just got cut off. Sorry about that Yeah, I've I've there there have been there have been some jitters throughout I don't know if that is that something that you experience often or because I was starting to question whether or not this is a good Application to use because of no, I think this is like my end of things I think it's just like the internet and this part of the world is like really shitty Um, you have sounded like I have not had any disruptions from your side So I think genuinely it is because of me and not because of the app or okay. Yeah, okay Are you are you are you are you on are you on Starlink? Do you guys have Starlink in Borneo yet? No, we're not we don't Well, I'm no, I mean, I mean, it's it's it's I don't it's not I well I don't think it's an absurd question in general because it is pretty It's I don't know. I don't know how globally ubiquitous it is But you know like right now I'm I'm in a place in New Mexico where I don't I don't get consistent cell service at all And you know and and what internet you can get here is is really kind of bad Except for the fact that we do have the Starlink dish on the ceiling, you know up on the roof And that's that's what that's that's my tether to the internet here. So Well, I should definitely like get into that and see what I can do especially But I don't know if I'm going to be in like Borneo for very much longer It's going to depend on like the job situation. Right. So Yeah, I don't know if it's going to be worth it So so thanks for the heads up. Oh, yeah. Yeah, totally. So when you When you sit, uh, you know now as as an adult like, uh, do you how what what's your frequency? What are your intervals? What does that kind of look like for you? Um, I keep it really basic these days. So I and I'm using it very like instrumentally as I as opposed to Um, just using it for like pointless whatever Um, so very much like what I when I was like eight years old again Um, it's like 10 minutes 12 minutes sometimes Every day in the morning as soon as I get up. Yeah, and immediately I kind of use that like mind clearance state to then Plan the day or just like not worry about what it's going to come after and that kind of like resets the anxiety for background radiation to zero and And then then I just go about my day. It becomes a lot easier for me to like hold on to Um, habits that I want to build And to like have stronger discipline if I have If I set aside 10 minutes of my morning to just like sharpening my mind or like focusing on like, um, Whatever is going on internally, right? Or even just clearing the table, right? Yeah, so you have a fresh workspace to kind of design your day from Exactly. Yeah, so that's how I go about so, um, do you Do you feel like there there's anything that we didn't discuss that you would have wanted to have discussed or or any any Any thoughts that you have that you want to share before we close? No, I can think of. I mean, I'm I'm sure if we do we'll probably be like, uh Connected enough to start a new episode or like chat about it in the DMs or something Yeah, but I really enjoyed this. I hope that We can like have more like random teapot conversations with people just like this And be able to like share experiences I've certainly I certainly enjoyed like doing this with my own like little project and podcasting On my own So it's always fun to like be the guest like have their favorite turn and be like the guest and someone else's like a show Yeah, yeah, absolutely. So do you do you have any notes for me ways that I could have done done a better job here? Uh I am honestly like really new to this stuff as well. So Yeah, I'll I'll get back to you on this one. We've done like five more episodes. Oh, goodness. Yeah All right, cool. I've been told that I've yeah I've been told that I tend to be a bit too academic-y when it comes to like podcasting but that's kind of like my general vibe anyway, so Um, I guess different people have different like like different strokes and yeah preferences Cool. Well, thanks a lot for your time ven. I really appreciate you coming on and and having a chat with me It's nice to get to make a little better. Yeah, yeah, it's great. Thanks. Yeah, right. See you. Take care. All right. Bye. Bye.

Well, hey, Toby, it's great to have a chat with you. Nice to meet you too, Luke. It's good to be here. Yeah, so mostly with my podcast feed, I just have conversation with people that I've met on Twitter that I know in real life or with family members or whatever. And you're kind of that for me because we're friends on Twitter. But beyond that, you're the CEO of Bright Mind, which is a meditation app. And I would just love to hear all about you and your story. Sure. So just you might have to edit this out later. But are we jumping into the recorded section? Oh, yeah, we're just going. Yeah, OK, we're just going to go. First of all, I'm just curious before we even go into that, where are you in the world? I am in Missoula, Montana. Whoa, cool. Yeah, that's really beautiful. Probably it is beautiful. Yeah, absolutely. I'm obsessed with mountains. So I'm jealous. Do you you're in upstate New York so you don't really have? I mean, the Catskills are up there somewhere, right? Yep. Yeah, it's funny. You mentioned the Catskills. The Catskills are actually pretty far away from where I am now. But my girlfriend and I are my fiance. I actually proposed to her last Saturday a week. Oh, wow. Big news. Congratulations. How long have you been dating? Like a little over two years. OK. Well, that's a big that's a big step. That's awesome. I know. We're so excited. She did. Thank goodness. Anyways, we're thinking of moving to the Catskills or outside of the Catskills, Kingston, specifically because they are pretty mountains. And right now where we are, we're I'm in like Rochester, New York, and it's all flat and there's no mountains. And I'm sad and I want mountains. Mountains are extremely. My girlfriend and I joke that like mountains are where the there was where God lives, you know, it's like, you know, I I can't disagree with that. Personally, I've been. I've I've spent some time in the Blue Ridge Mountains and like the western end of Virginia. So like East Tennessee up into the western part of Virginia, where like Floyd County, Floyd, Virginia is. And. Yeah, it's absolutely magical up in the mountains, for sure. Totally. Here in Missoula, we're kind of we're surrounded by mountains, but we're not the city itself is kind of in a valley between a couple of mountain ranges. Yeah. Interesting. Yeah. So we've got great views, for sure. Yeah. So I guess to get to your question about Bright Mind and and the project. So Bright Mind's a meditation app. And as you know, there are a lot of meditation apps out there. There are. But I, you know, I was just talking to I talked to a lot of users. There's a lot of opportunities for users to hop on the phone with me at various points in the journey. So I talk to users all the time and I was talking to a user the other day and she was like, you know, I've used. I used Calm for like two years and it was all right. But I felt like my practice was kind of plateauing and I found Bright Mind and I was like, holy crap. I feel like I struck gold. Really excited about the approach and the impact that it's having on her life. And so I like I said, I talked to a lot of users and like I actually do a lot of qualitative data analysis on these types of conversations and 80 to 90 percent of users expressed this exact sentiment that they've used other meditation apps. Their practice was kind of plateauing and they were really excited of when they found Bright Mind. And so, you know, the question is why why are they so excited? And I think it mostly has to do with the approach simply just like the pedagogy, the way that we're presenting mindfulness and the way I like to frame that is in saying as simple as possible, but no simpler. So and I'll just kind of give you I could give you a lot of examples, but to give you one example, pretty much everything in Bright Mind you learn is summarized in just three words. What, why, how? So what mindfulness is, why would you practice mindfulness and how do you practice mindfulness? And we can drill into it kind of as much as you want. It's kind of fractal, but the answer to what mindfulness is is three mental muscles, concentration, clarity and balance. The answer to why practice mindfulness is the five facets of happiness, which is stress relief, be more fulfilled, understand yourself, sharpen your skills and improve the world. And the answer to how you as a bunch of really good answers to how you answer the question, how do you practice mindfulness? But I guess a pretty good one is the four elements of practice, which are official practice, integration practice, coaching and retreats. And Bright Mind supports you in all four of those elements of practice. And so, you know, I think you can maybe see how what I just said was it's pretty simple, you know, what, why, how, but you can also maybe get a sense that it packs a punch, that it's not so simple, that it's just not really going to be useful. Like we really try to distill transformational concepts and practices into really, really simple language and frameworks that really then has a big impact on people's lives. Yeah, I mean, definitely, you know, you start with the three simple questions, but there's there's a lot behind it that you're ready to start unpacking the more you get into it with your with your analysis after talking to lots of different, you know, customers and things, you know, when they're coming from, you know, column or some other app and then they're finding a new value in Bright Mind that they didn't find, you know, somewhere else. Is there is there like a certain point in the journey that's like kind of the turning point where they're like, oh, wow, like this has opened my eyes to practice in a new way that that's really made made made the value add so much different for me. There's probably what comes to mind is when they learn integration practice. So this is about 20 meditations in. They've learned already a variety of techniques and they've actually already have. They've been introed to the what, why and how at least in an introductory way. So we basically start with this in the curriculum. But what's so the integration practice is well, actually, let me start with official practice. So official practice is the stuff that you do that you think of that you just like do every day or whatever. You're going to if you ask people if you have a daily meditation practice, that what that what that is is their official practice. Are you like setting aside 15 minutes to meditate a day integration? And so what what defines official practice is that you're in stillness. At least this is this is the way that I define it. You're in stillness. You're practicing for at least 10 minutes and your full attention is on the technique. Those are the three boxes that you have to check in order to make it official practice. If you break. Well, whenever you break one of those rules, you get the three types of integration practice. So if you meditate for less than 10 minutes, that's called a snack. If you meditate while you're moving, that's called movement practice. And if you split your attention between a meditation technique and doing another task like having a conversation or walking or responding to emails, then that's called Jedi practice. For me, it's opening the door for my dog. If I'm in the room, he'll start pawing at the door to get it. Uh huh. Uh huh. So so you're mindful as you open the door. Is that right? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. No, I'm just saying like I'll be sitting and then he'll start pawing at the door. So I have to mindfully, you know, go and reach over and open the door so he can come in and lay down. Yeah, that's funny. Um, so usually when people, the reason that people are it kind of the coin falls into the slot when they learn integration practice is that I'm making it for the first time extremely practical and actually tangible of how this is going to impact your life and how it's going to be integrated into your life. Like you can see how, oh, if I just like meditated, if I sprinkled my day with snacks or I just meditated for like 30 seconds here, 30 seconds there, you can see how it starts to bleed into the rest of your day naturally. Um, the experience, we actually have the people get up and move while they're meditating and a very tightly controlled guidance. They start to see like, oh my God, I can meditate while I'm walking. Whoa. What stops me from meditating while I'm doing the dishes. And especially with Jedi practice, when you're learning how it's, it's tricky, it definitely takes some getting used to, but you can actually like put 80% of your mind on a task and 20% of your mind on a meditation technique. And you kind of split your attention like that. That really starts to open people up as to like, oh my God, this isn't just some kind of like quick fix stress relief experience. This is like a whole new way, a whole new perspective that I can come up, come at life at. And this is really going to impact my life and whoa, there's opportunities are endless and it's just really inspiring for people. So I think the, the initial question that I asked, which I'm still curious to learn a little bit more about is about your personal story, your journey of how you came to know about meditation, how you came to form Bright Mind and all of that. Sure, sure. So, I mean, there's various lengths of this story, but I guess I'll give you like the medium length version. OK. Which is I grew up interested in meditation. I think one reason is that as I grew up rurally, I was in Vermont in the mountains. And I think as I started this conversation, saying like, God Liz is in the mountains. I, you know, I spent hours and hours wandering the woods with my dog. And I think that that naturally kind of induces mystical experiences, at least if you're open to it, if you, if you have a place for that in your worldview. So I had quite a few like significant, I would say spiritual experiences, meditative experiences as a kid. And I was very passionate about it. I even like I homeschooled myself for a year and a half in high school because I wanted to do more drumming and more wood wandering. Like this was really, I was really passionate about it just as a kid. Luckily, I had a neighbor who knew she basically taught me some basics more along the lines of Native American spirituality. So she got me, I had a mentor early on, basically. Then I got Lyme disease when I was like 17, which really messed up my physical body. I still have tons and tons and tons of chronic pain in my body. And that caused me. To like take time off of school. And it was a really difficult time for me. And at that point, I met Shenzhen Young, who. Did you meet him like on a path in Vermont? Just wandering in the woods. That would be cool. He's kind of not really. No, I asked my I asked my aunt. You know, I want to get into meditation. Do you have any like resources? I want to get more into meditation. Do you have any resource suggestions? And she was like, oh, you got to check out Shenzhen. He holds at the time he was holding free day or like by donation day long retreats in Waterbury, Vermont. And so I just went and it was just totally blown away and inspired by his presentation. He I'm pretty sure actually this is kind of funny. I'm pretty sure that day at the retreat, he gave the what, why and how framework for mindfulness. So you just have like just this fantastic karmic seed that you were born into, right? Basically, yeah. Because you're at this point, you're what, like 17, 18 years old? Well, at that point, I'm 21, but 21, 21. And you meet Shenzhen Young in Vermont. And he and he teaches you what, why, how on the first day. Yeah. Wow. Wow. And I was like, oh, my God, that's such a good conceptual framework. I see how everything I've learned about spirituality so far fits into that. And I see how it's a very it there's it leaves a lot of like there's so much more to explore. You know, I was really excited. So meeting Shenzhen was incredibly inspiring. I practiced a lot. Yeah. Immediately. And I started teaching when I went back to college. I started teaching. I just started like a club. I did some like an independent research project in cognitive science, which was really cool. And that's kind of where I started really cutting my chops as like a teacher and experimenting with pedagogy. And then I joined a monastery with Toshin, who you may know. And I know a lot of Twitter people know. So Toshin and I basically like co-founded this cool monastery in Vermont. And is it the what's the name of it? The Monastic Academy or Maple. Oh, wow. OK. I didn't. OK. Wow. Yeah. Yeah. I've heard I've heard of it. I didn't realize you were a co-founder. That's incredible. Yeah. Yeah. And so that was profound and really, really amazing in terms of deepening my practice. And then I was thinking of leaving the monastery partially because I was in Lerv. And basically, I got a call and my friend was like, hey, do you want me to introduce you to someone who's starting a meditation app? I think you'd I think you'd be really helpful for them. And I was like, yeah. And I just got a job offer to like help work on a meditation app based off of shins and stuff. And I was like, that's pretty much a dream job. So yes, I will do that. So that was like six or seven years ago now. And it's been a small, scrappy startup kind of ever since. But it's been really so fun. I've learned so much. And so I was originally kind of brought on to do the content. But then I very quickly took over kind of the product design and managing like I do a lot of product product management. So like communicating with the developers what we need to have happen. And yeah. And so fast forward to today. It's a pretty small team. There's just three of us basically as me and two developers. And I also have like a partner that does that helps with some marketing stuff. And I get to work on the product and develop content. And it's really it's really great. I mean, I always say that it's like an honor to get to support so many people's practice. And I don't know. People say a lot of nice things to me, which is nice. It's like, thank you so much for all the work you're doing. And it's just like really, really great to get that every day and to feel good about what I'm doing. So and I want to ask a little bit about the app. I noticed that you guys have just done a new update and you've kind of rearranged your your guided medications. So tell me a little bit about your thinking behind doing that. Oh, man, I'm so excited about this update. There is a central design question in at least in my mind in the context of meditation apps. And that question is, do you go with a quote library experience? Or do you go with a quote journey experience? Most meditation apps have gone with the library experience. So you open up the app and you get presented with hundreds, sometimes thousands of different options. It's a large library that you can explore as you wish. As you can see with bright mind while they're this transition that you just witnessed is kind of like the final. We're really committed fully to the journey experience before it was half and half where it started out with a journey and then we graduated you to a library. But with this recent update, what we basically decided was let's just go all in on the journey. So what we've done in this update is yeah, there used to be a library that opened up when you completed the journey. Now the journey just keeps going forever. And you can still access the library meditations at one point if you want, but it's pretty hidden. It's like in the menu and mostly the reason we did this, there's a bunch of different like confounding factors, but probably the biggest reason we did this is just people asked for and wanted it. Like I said, I talk with users all the time and most users that got through the old version of the journey were like, I just wish the journey would keep going forever. After the journey finished, I didn't know what to do. Like I could, I guess I could explore the library, but I didn't know what to do. It was hard to find good content. I really liked it when I opened the app and pressed play and that was all I had to do. I don't want to make another decision. And so, you know, I heard that for a while and I was like, yeah, yeah, yeah, but we can't figure out how to make a journey that goes on forever. And at a certain point I was like, okay, we're going all in on the journey. Yeah. So, I mean, so, and here's a question I have. You know, I was using this before, before this update. And for a while there was just like a, like, here's a random daily taste kind of thing that was up at the top. I'm guessing that's, that's just gone now, huh? Completely gone. Completely. Meditation is gone and will never return. It's interesting. I feel like I have to kind of start back from the beginning almost because, uh, yeah, it was. Did you go through the whole journey before and then unlock the new meditation or did you, there's multiple journey paths depending on how old of a user you were. I don't think I did because I had, okay. So you had on a previous version of it. I had, I got in earlier and I wasn't a paid member. And so I got through a few meditations and then, um, and then I, you know, and then I subscribed for the year back around like December. And, and at that point it was kind of in library mode. So I was just, I was honestly just kind of jumping around here and there. Okay. Yeah. In that case, definitely just start at the beginning. Yeah. Seriously. So, and that kind of gets to what I was going to say, but I forgot to say is that the reason, whether you go with a library or a journey, one is not better than the other. They just each have their pros and cons, obviously. Um, the reason that we went with the journey full on is that it's essential. If you are going to teach someone something remotely sophisticated, you have to have a linear learning journey. Right. Like it's the same reason why you have to learn, we have to go to high school before you go to college. Like you have to have certain basic concepts and understandings before you build on them. Um, and so, um, in order to really deliver that as simple as possible, but no simpler approach that we're so excited about, we just realized that practically speaking, the only way we're going to deliver on that kind of brand promise is to have a linear learning journey where I can slowly, but surely build up a whole suite of concepts and practices. And as you'll see when you go through the journey, it's a really cool interweaving. You know, like you learn the what, why, and how in the first like 20 meditations. And then you continue interweaving them in these really interesting ways. I'm constantly referencing the concepts and practices that you learned earlier on and you're building on them. It's a really like organic learning journey experience. Awesome. Does it. So I learned about bright mind in. Let's see. Time has gone funny on me because I've been in one place for a whole year now and I'm not used to doing that. I was in. So 20. Yeah. So in, in, in like the middle of 2021, like the second half of 2021, I started hearing more like Shenzhen showing up on the, the Guru Viking podcast in like group talks and stuff. And so I, so I, so then I listened to one of his audio books and then I started looking into, you know, his kind of school of, of, of, of practice. And then while looking around in that, that was how, that was how I personally found bright mind. And so Shenzhen for me was kind of the draw to bright mind. Does bright mind ever address in any kind of a direct way like genres or, or like actual like awakening or insight and that kind of thing. We haven't done. We don't have any content right now about genres, although that's a possibility. One of the cool things about the future of bright mind is we run a four hour retreat once a month, which I think you joined the last one, right? I did. Yeah, I was, I was able to join the last one. Yeah. So every month I get to come up with a topic and then develop a sweet set of guided meditations around it. And so like we totally might do some stuff on the genres at some point. But we don't have anything there yet. In terms of awakening and maybe what you're asking there is like more of a spiritual perspective on meditation or. Well, I guess I'm thinking about like pads and fruits kind of, you know, like, like, yeah, like enlightenment. I don't know if that's, to me, I don't know if it's spiritual as much as it's sort of like a phenomenological shift or something. And having not experienced it, I'm just just throwing words. It's something I can't describe. Sure. So it depends on how you define that, obviously. I mean, I think that. So first of all, it's a it is a secular presentation. So it's not explicitly Buddhist. Right. And that's certainly on purpose. And, you know, like I say, it's as simple as possible, but no simpler. So it would be too simple if I threw the baby out with the bathwater. Meditation, as you say, leads to profound phenomenological shifts and perception. And so we're going to talk about that. For sure. You haven't you haven't gotten there yet. Well, journeys or I'm saying I'm saying that more like. Abstractly. So one way to answer your question is to point you towards the expansion contraction pack. Okay. That was a retreat we did a few months ago. And it is one answer to the question phenomenologically, what is enlightenment like? One answer to that question is simultaneous and constant expansion and contraction of space. That is what it's like. And we can show you some practices that are going to help take advantage of any of that that's already happening in your experience and pursue that as an opportunity. So basically there's at a certain point in the journey, there's there's three packs and they go in a row. So listen to them in order. It'll take a while to get through all of them. The first pack is flow. The second pack is arising and passing. And the third pack is expansion contraction. So they build on each other. The first thing to do is develop a. The acquired taste of how to detect flow in your experience. Once you have that you can acquire the taste for arising and passing. Once you have acquired a taste for rising and passing, you can then develop the taste for expansion contraction. So that's kind of one very awakening focused. You could say phenomenological earth shattering types of practices that we explore. But and so I mean really enlightenment phenomenological shifts. There's there's there's a million different facets. There's a lot of different insights and to each of the techniques get at different facets. And so really with with all the techniques, you're kind of exploring. You're kind of exploring different different facets of it. And it's all pretty relevant. Yeah. I think I'll leave it there. Okay. How. So like I mentioned, so I can I came to Bright Mind by way of Shenzhen. How how involved is he at this point or at the initial point when you were like crafting the path of the journey in kind of helping to helping to to navigate that that that or plot that course out. Yeah. So first of all, a lot of people do find Bright Mind through Shenzhen. It's probably the most common way that people find us. And he was more involved earlier on. He's a lot less involved now. But yeah, like basically early on I spent hours and hours with him trying to map out the flow chart that is his mind. And it was pretty cool. You know work flowy. No. It was like a it's a it still is a pretty cool web tool. It's kind of like a notion type. Yeah. Cool where you can create nodes and then you can create nodes inside of nodes and then you can create nodes inside of those nodes. And if you can go as deep, you just has unlimited no to no ability. Like the set of all sets. Yeah. So I spent hours and hours and months and months literally just mapping it all out. And and of course, you know, my I learned mostly from him. So his if you go through Bright Mind and then you join a Shenzhen retreat, it's like almost exactly the same material pretty. So pretty much the the the core approach to teaching meditation is 100% Shenzhen. But I basically spent like a year writing the scripts for the current journey meditations. And so there's a lot of my voice in there too. And I balance or I bring in some of my own perspectives, my own styles. I also bring in other teachers that I've been influenced by. So it is at the end of the day a mix. But the core real foundation of Bright Mind is But that's also not, now that I've kind of recorded a lot of his basic content at this point. And so now when I go to schedule and pick the topics for retreats, I'm having a lot of fun being a lot more creative and it's not, it's not Shenzhenian at all, actually. I'm bringing in all sorts of other stuff. Like we're going to be doing a retreat in April, I think April or it's just going to be all IFS, internal family systems. So cool. So and I've done a bunch on like a trustworthiness practice that I learned from another meditation teacher. So especially from now on, we're going to be bringing in a lot of all sorts of cool stuff, but still the backbone really is his stuff. Right. I've heard in the recordings, I've heard his voice. I've heard your voice and then I've heard some other voice or maybe voices. Probably Juliana. So Juliana Ray is another teacher that was more involved in the early days and is less involved now. And I heard another man's voice. It's yeah. So we've we've also worked with a bunch of other teachers, like 20 or probably 20 other teachers also have recordings in Bright Mind. Oh, wow. But they are all in what used to be called the library and what is now called classic meditations. OK, so that all the other teachers are just housed in the more library interface, which is not really the center point of the of the interface at this point, but you can still access it if you want. Oh, OK, I was about to ask you how to access it. You're right. It is it is kind of buried in there. Yeah. You like those emojis, though? Yeah. Yeah, I just decked out the entire menu with emojis. I'm on an emoji. I love picking emojis. How many how many hours of content have you got in the journey itself now? Because you said that basically like the journey is kind of a never ending process. Yeah. So I don't know what the overall content is. And it also depends on one of the cool things you can do with Bright Mind is you can adjust the duration of the practices. Yeah, I was going to ask you that. So you said anything less than 15 minutes is kind of in snack territory. Well, technically, I say 10 minutes. And even though a lot of them had a lot of the minimum durations in Bright Mind are 12 or 13 or even 14 minutes. That's just because I like to let the content steer what I need to say on any given day. I do that is priority. So and there also needs to be enough silence to practice. So but basically. Technically speaking, a snack is less than 10 minutes. OK, official practice is more than 10 minutes separately. The minimum duration of a lot of Bright Mind sits are like 12 or 13 minutes. But that's just because there was a lot that I needed to say and I wanted to leave enough time to also to practice. Right. And what we've done there, by the way, in terms of the adjusting duration thing is we actually kind of created a cool back end that I split up the guidance into a number of audio files. Right. And then depending on the duration that you select, the app calculates how much silence to play in between the audio files. And so you can get the same learning, the same guidance, essentially, at different durations, which people really appreciate. That's another like huge theme in a lot of the customer correspondence that I get is like, it's so cool that I can do a 60 minute version of a meditation that I've done before at 20 minutes, right? You know, it's it's a little things. And so depending on how you adjust the durations, but I don't know, I've got to be upwards of a hundred guidances at this point and talk to me in a year. And I'll have I'll have there's usually like six guidances per retreat. So that's six times 12. And so, yeah, I'm just going to keep racking them up. And create an everlasting, fruitful, wondrous spiritual journey that is in your pocket and available 24 seven. So you you you you already kind of answered one of the questions I was going to ask you when you said that like a lot or even maybe most people come to Bright Mind, you know, after learning Shenzhen or Shenzhen's practices, because also you you mentioned, you know, like some people come over from other meditation apps. And I was kind of curious, like, how much of that do you find where people are, you know, like they may just be casual meditators that have been using calm for years. And they just decide to start looking in the app store for something different. Well, actually, it's a combination. So an extremely common pattern is calm user encounters Shenzhen on calm because he has like two practices on calm. OK, they are really interested in that. And those just those two little meditations and they look up because of that they look up Shenzhen online and then they find Bright Mind and then they're super psyched. OK, so that's probably that's probably the most common way that people find us actually is calm users find Shenzhen, look Shenzhen up and then find Bright Mind. Isn't that bizarre? Hey, man, whatever works, it's awesome. I know. I know. So you've been you've been at Bright Mind for like six, seven years now. Yeah, we started in 2016 and now 2023. Yeah. So freaking seven years. Wow. Crazy. Very cool. It's basically been like my only job. Yeah. I mean, if you're able, at least like adult job, I had a bunch of like high school jobs. But I mean, if you're able to make your livelihood out of this, this is this is definitely a right livelihood. Yeah, absolutely. It doesn't get much better. I love it. Well, thank you for your time. I know you've got to go pretty soon, but I really appreciate you chatting with me for a while. Yeah, of course. It was a pleasure.

I am officially enlightened. I took a course. It's awesome. So the course actually worked and that's that's really neat. I am in Arizona. We go back and forth a little bit. I have 40 acres in the middle of nowhere and it's really in the middle of nowhere. It's 45 minutes to get to a paved road. So that's like the middle of nowhere. And then we also have a little place in Scottsdale where I'm trying to do actual interact with humans kind of stuff which is it's new to me again because I took a couple years off from that. Yeah. So I basically pulled like an Eckert Tolle kind of thing when I took the first class. It was an experimental cohort of they called it 45 days to awakening. Now I think it's the 45 days challenge. And it was this research project that had been going on for 10 years and he had this like six month program where he would take research subjects through all of these different exercises and he was getting like 73% of people into some form of fundamental well-being enlightenment persistent non symbolic experience whatever you want to call it. And so when coronavirus hit he, Dr. Martin, he took this thing and he tried to condense it down. He works with a couple of clinical psychologists and they tried to condense it down to like six weeks and it worked pretty well mostly seven weeks total. And I went completely out of my head about halfway through the course. I was quite literally in the clouds for about a day. That was what popped me out was clouds. So and then after that I spent quite a bit of time. So this was coronavirus pandemic time. I wasn't doing the mask thing. I wasn't doing the stay at home thing. This was right at the point in time. We were still in Nevada where the governor said that to get your outdoors exercise you should put a chair next to the window with the window closed and look out of the glass. That was the pandemic health response. Look out a closed window. Yeah so I wasn't doing that. Actually I did a lot of this course sitting in closed parks. Like we were sneaking into parks. Two and a half years ago we were sneaking into parks or yeah two years two and a half years ago and that's just crazy. So I went a little out of my head at the same time with the with the prepper background and being on a farm. We had a small farm ranch at the time which I was getting ready to get done with because 10 years is a long time for me to do a single thing and do ranching for 10 years was way too long. So all of that came together and I basically spent the next two years driving around camping and grabbing remote pieces of property in the middle of nowhere camping on them and figuring out the enlightenment thing. And then recently I've decided I have to come back and do some stuff but I couldn't figure out what to do and all I want to do is write and walk people through the processes. I love helping people in general and most of my pre-enlightenment life that was a sucker bet like it was a good way to get taken advantage of. It's like oh yeah I'll help you move. But it can also be really fulfilling like it depends on yeah reciprocity or just some kind of abundance and that's where the coaching thing comes in. I was thinking about that because there's a Zen school a lot of the Zen Buddhist stuff in the U.S. doesn't work the way it works in Asia. In Asia you're allowed to charge money for retreats and lessons but there's something about particular Buddhist cultures in the U.S. where you're supposed to rely on donations only and never charge for a retreat and stuff otherwise you're a grifter and I'm like well how much help am I supposed to be to you if half of my waking hours are trying to fight the electric company turning my power off? Okay no uh Jeffrey Martin yeah so the finder's course the finder's course was several years of stuff right before what I took. I took the very first shortened version he did the last yeah I think it's called the 45 day challenge yeah the first one was called 45 days to awakening I think and then it's it's now on the website it's called the 45 days challenge he's got a pretty streamlined he still has the main problem of delivery and he's trying he's trying to expand so yeah right at right at the beginning of lockdown he released late February early March 2020 I think so somewhere around a year and a half kind of no but so I've never I've looked into I've dated a lot of Buddhists I've dated a lot of vegans I've done the whole thing I've been with the hippies off and on um I actually I used to run logistics for a music festival so I've been through I've been through the whole like I know the people but my actual exposure is mostly psychology in college alt psychology most mostly mid-century alternative psychology movements and western occultism so I never really got into buddhism like I I know some of the meditation some of the breathing some of the yogas but I never I I never could quite get my head around if you just spend 16 lifetimes following the eightfold path and doing the five things with the first 15 different spec specific it's all very mind system oriented and didn't seem to make sense to me it never made sense to me is like like the whole point is enlightenment but you're you're going through things in system system it's very good for the western mind like everybody wants a little list lots and lots of lists so I never I you know I never took um regular retreats in fact I've been to retreat centers but only to work so I always have to have something to do so you definitely can do it without while maintaining normal job and everything I think it's a little easier if you have some family buy-in I took it with one of my my um partners female companions whatever so that made it a little easier but the total commitment of time is supposed to be about an hour and a half every day it's closer to two hours if you're very social with it if you communicate more there's a one hour meditation block and that's specifically one hour all at once there's physiological changes this this is just basic known neuroscience after about 45 minutes when you're meditating stuff happens in your head like biological stuff happens in your head and things start to shift so part of the preparation that's not the enlightenment itself but part of the preparation the seeding is to have that one hour meditation every day that's the main time commitment sit down for one hour the other half hour is stuff like um there's exercises exercises to do in the morning and the evening honestly now mental stuff they positive psychology stuff it's good no and positive psychology it's it's all gold standard stuff but it's it did it never took me 15 minutes it takes me like three minutes but some people get gratitude exercise forgiveness exercise basic visualization and release um it changes no it changes every three or seven days nope there's a there's a setup there's a short video that tells you what you're going to be doing and it has some text um because people integrate knowledge different ways and it's just a set of instructions and then you go do it it's not yeah and then when something happens you kind of run with it um so i'm for me it was actually a practice it was during a shift going from yeah yeah and this shift was was shifting from just the solo meditation to a group exercise that you would do on zoom and that was that was not a daily thing that was a bonus thing that you would add that that's made up part of that 90 minute average is that one hour every week for the last couple of weeks you would do a group um awareness exercise and the preparation for that there were a couple little guided nine minute guided meditation on what it's about how how it works because it's really hard to uh mentally figure out how you talk about awareness when awareness isn't about talking like you have to translate into language and you kind of have to get over the hump that yeah your mind is going to be there because you can't communicate without it like there's no we don't have telepathy that's reliable yet so um so there's a guided practice meditation just nine minutes so of how the how it works and that's where i where i popped over the fence um it's not common but it's actually it's known they document everything everything is documented so it's there's a certain percentage of people that actually pop during this this particular phase um people have broad characteristics they're just everyone's individual but there's broad characteristics and so i popped right then and what you do if you have a major event like that is you sink into it and you work with that like it's not that you drop everything in the course some people do and they never get heard from again they're like oh hey bye um but you drop the follow the instructions part and work on sinking in or experiencing or broadening what you've what you've encountered because that's the enlightenment part and there's no reason to mess around with feeling your nostril breath for an hour after you've gotten the enlightenment part because that's breathing is not enlightenment you know so that's just a way to get ready for it so for me it's not it's not it's not big for everybody for some people it's really big for some people it's much bigger than i can still talk there are people who just don't talk for like two or three days until they come back enough to be able to actually handle speech mine was pretty dramatic but not that dramatic for some people it happens so slowly and subliminally that they're just walking around one day and they they're like oh hey i don't know the last time i had anxiety something changed like they don't even know mine was pretty dramatic like i went off and like like everything was very full the universe was full full of everything you say full of life full of love a lot of people would describe it as full of love full of joy but it was past love past joy like i can it's there all the time and it's really complete um but it's past love it's past joy it does change over time so everything got very vibrant out there my sense of self-awareness expanded to everything i could see which is very hard to describe it's not like i traveled out of my body or anything but my sense of of my sense of self my sense of space way way outside of my skin yeah um and it turned on it stayed on really heavy so that you know the volume knob can't stay at 11 all the time or you'll burn out but but i was at 11 for several hours and then it would continue every time i did the group awareness exercise or practice or talk to people about it it would turn back on for hours but you know usually you float around the volume knobs at three to five like you don't just sit there all the time at 11 or you can't like life you could you could think of it that way i think um you could think of it that way it's more i don't know it's not overwhelmed it's definitely well overwhelmed but it you you might lose you might lose touch with the necessary processes of your body and your mind and that would yeah um it's hard it's a little bit it was the it was the preparation for the group practice that's what's really funny is it was just a practice exercise um clouds no it was the preparation it was it was this little preparation exercise to get ready for doing the group exercises um clouds are a thing for me i guess um i've always been able to kind of lose myself in the clouds for some people it's there's stuff like soap bubbles or a guitar solo or you know blowing bubbles like that's a really big one for a lot of people bubbles are just magnificent and pretty and they fly around clouds um paintings rainbows like i know people for whom the the little uh diffraction glass and looking at rainbows on the wall that works for them prisms right diffraction glasses prisms um so different things for different people uh clouds just do it for me i just happen to be looking at clouds at the time and everything popped right and i was just um i can't say i was in the clouds because there wasn't so much i for a little while so but the clouds were definitely there clouds were definitely a big part of the experience oh yeah oh i was in that state for for i'd say a couple days like it kind of floated a little bit but i wasn't i wasn't out of it for a couple of days really hard to describe oh no no no there were that that too that two days i wasn't doing much of anything i could i could walk around and i could eat um you know but i wasn't no no i wasn't doing much there um but so the the that moment that that experience usually fades down a little bit and you come back to wherever your core location your your core place on the spectrum of enlightenment is because there's a whole bunch of different places you can be and you can shift you can move around i'm much closer to that day to day now than i was two and a half years ago um when it when it all settled down and came out i was me but without stimulation programs or dramatization habits all that stuff went went away really fast in fact it ended a relationship of mine because i could not be stimulated triggered like the buttons she'd try to push the buttons there there are drama buttons and i just kind of i just kind of didn't respond to them you know where i'd see weird humor in them or something and it was very disconcerting because now you don't have control over me a lot of times people see you they don't see you they see what's useful to them or what they're used to they have a they have a map um i wasn't responding according to that map and for some people that's very threatening so in that in that case it seemed very threatening i can make you worry well it's and it's usually stuff like i can make you worry i can make you feel in my importances i can make you cry anger like all of that was gone and that was pretty it was pretty dramatic um very dramatic and so that that that kind of programming went away but i was still me i was still you know responding to my name have my thoughts um they didn't have as better okay interesting okay no worries that's the battery charger which but the battery is fine um so at that point it was still very very much me not non-dual so i was still in my head a lot or in my body a lot there's there's there's a neurological shift that happens and you can do a lot of things out once you've got that neurological shift but the neurological shift is really hard to describe it's um humans are really unique we have an ability to do some crazy stuff so well so the most mundane example is um there's this guy you either love him hate him or whatever he's the lobster man Jordan Peterson right he talks about hierarchies and you just be aware of him but he talks he's as a clinical psychologist he's really good like he knows what he's talking about um and there's the these things called dominance hierarchies and you can track people's hormones like serotonin levels and stuff with where they are on it in a dominance hierarchy you walk up to another dude and you're like you either feel good or you feel tiny or whatever this it's very subtle here's the here's the thing people seem to always miss humans can create an infinite number of hierarchies you can be the winner it's something stamp collecting hot wheel racing axe throwing like we have this infinite ability so actually like I have a friend who makes avocado avocado toast like for a living so so everyone has the has the ability to program themselves to be successful in a hierarchy and that's a huge thing neurologically well humans and no other animal can do that no other creature can do that dogs come close because dogs can have a high status sub pack and a low status pet main pack and stuff that's because they're symbiotic with humans but nothing else can do that well humans have what appears to be another really crazy ability and that's we can rewire our neurology so roughly speaking and this isn't exactly right from well from scarcity to abundance from fight or flight to confidence and competence so you'll you'll see this with people people who get startled by a challenge you know someone comes up and just scares the shit out of them some people respond with that fight or flight tense and some people create something out of that they respond confidently creatively competently and there's that that's a huge that's not built into your amygdala like that's a shift that's something that only humans can actually change that's what happens when you when you do the enlightenment that there's a your whole neurology shifts it's like the opposite of PTSD literally it's an episodic shift in your neurology PTSD is a shift in your neurology your whole nervous system changes it's it's the opposite of that um where you how you experience it where you land on it whether you're dual or non-dual and all that that's all different stuff but that that's the shift that's the change that was that was that was my anti PTSD moment yeah oh yeah um that's actually that's kind of where I'm at most of the time right now um it's yeah yeah it's funny because people's people people make a big deal out of it and there's like this being has a part that wants to tell you and I'm like yeah whatever I'm gonna tell you stuff the the pronouns don't matter anymore um because I'm I know what's going on there's a mind minds are emergent from the body so there's this body which is actually an ecology because it's not just human cells and all that and the mind the mind is an emergent part of that and it has processes minds do what you tell them to they they always do what you tell them to most of the problems in the world are because people don't know what they're telling their minds to do like negativity really does actually have an effect positivity really has an effect minds to what they do but non -dual there's not a sense that I'm in my mind thinking the thoughts or anything but the mind is there it's part of the universe I can use it like it's still there so non-dual is it's easier it's easier than I ever thought it was I had so many hang-ups about it and then I just was there and it's like yeah sorry I don't know it was some time about two years after that I that I actually recognized we were talking about it in the alumni groups and stuff and I realized that we were we were trying to get through definitions um and one of the one of the research people was talking about it and like okay let's let's get some of the the weird woo around non-duality out of there if you look at the world do you sense that you are looking at the world or do you sense that the world is being experienced like is there a you looking at the wall and for most of the time now there's just there's a wall there but there's not a me looking at the wall this is really easy to get a glimpse of if you go with the do some stuff with the headless way people headless headless way is out there on the internet you can find it yeah headless ways they're neat people I go I go jump on some of the the events sometimes it used to do a lot more for me now it's just kind of like a uh it's like going to the coffee shop it's it's just a morning thing to do sometimes they used to blow my mind but you know now I'm kind of like I'm there all the time it's a it's a good it's a good way to remind me that there are other people doing it experiencing it it's a good way to avoid the uh going into the cave path so there's like two paths main paths of non-duality like going into the cave and being a hermit and forgetting that other people exist and then going out and being with people and maximizing you know so path of freedom and path of humanity stuff so mostly I don't even try to coach this you know I'll talk about it and I'll and if anyone really wants it I'll be like well there's some really good ways to get it headless way might work the 45 days challenge will probably work 75 it'll probably work or you can go through you know 20 lifetimes of buddhism or whatever like oh yeah one of the so so the thing is I think when you talk about buddha you're talking about one thing and then when you talk about buddhism most of the time you're talking about what a bunch of people have added on to it so you know it's like like I often use the use the use the phrase right action but I don't mean right action the same way you know I'm not talking about the the five proper act goals or whatever I don't remember what they are don't kill don't lie use sex properly some other stuff when I talk about right action I mean being aligned with your intentions if you are in alignment with yourself then right action happens so the big realization for that was for me was you know so someone was talking this is way back in the google plus days every time I pick up a knife I wonder what it would be like to cut somebody or cut myself or something I'm like so that's the exact opposite of right action if you if you're engaged in right action if you're actually in in accordance with yourself and you're flowing with your intuition and everything's going right you pick up the knife and you do what you're doing there's no distraction there's no oh hey I could commit murder it's just I'm gonna slice the steak man that's all I'm doing so if you're in alignment with yourself right action just flows it happens but I can't talk about it with some Buddhists because they get very attached to all the laws and rules around what right action is supposed to be and you have to do these these prerequisite steps before you can do it I'm know you just like align yourself with yourself and it's so I think Buddha himself has some pretty clear it's it's the Jesus thing all over again you know Jesus can say two or three things that will throw people into there are lots of enlightened Christians you know surrender to me and feel love and boom their whole life is like love there there's a there's a love aspect of enlightenment that's usually not non-dual because it's you experiencing the love of the universe so it's actually there's a subtle dualistic aspect to that but oh I've I've done that I kind of go back and forth it's one of the it's one of the areas one of the spots in enlightenment is this massive love thing you can get there it's fun it's a really hard place to act from you don't want someone who's who's full of divine love to run a business because that's not going to work very well I mean well we talk about that was is yeah well you know society is this huge set of games and agreements of people doing stuff with other people and that perfect divine love goes outside the game and it's great and it's cool but you can't actually engage the game from there because you're not part of the game like like you're not on the playing field anymore so yeah the love thing is cool and it's really easy to get like you you can read like three lines from the new testament and there it is it's right there but then everything about the religion built up around that kind of hides it I think that Buddhism has a lot of the same thousands of years of religion on top of a truth so it's not that I'm anti-Buddhist it's just that I find I find the Buddhist it's it's like Talmudic scholars um but I find I find a lot of the Buddhist um processes rules explanations philosophies logical arguments um propositions positions to be kind of boring and and slowing you down but it also depends on on where you are like I think that Buddhism resulted in a lot of people getting enlightened a thousand years ago um but people people change with the times like your your whole psychology changes with the times I would love it if we were all hunter-gatherers but we're so our psychology is different so okay 14 14 um like two actual time consuming like really involved and then the others are more more of the newsletter type like I put stuff out there and they're like yay thanks but we don't actually interact a whole lot there's some tech support like some I'll send an email when they ask a question kind of thing but there's different levels to this I mean I know people who do coaching where they can only have like two clients because it's 15 hours a week for each of them like get up in the morning and deal with the crisis kind of stuff that's fine concierge level I guess so but so so probably just chat and see and see what's gonna happen I don't have an advertising thing yet I don't even have my my I have a second sub stack that I'm working on but I haven't done the I've got a whole bunch of stuff ready but I haven't started the scheduled releases that's where I'm probably going to focus is doing scheduled written and audio sub stack does audio now weekly releases and do the newsletter thing like regular marketing people I've been told that that works I have no I do it cool I have no idea what success looks like on that but it's cool the thing is that I can't so I'm not going to promise enlightenment to anyone but there are a lot of really well that's that's Jeff that's Jeffrey Martin stuff but I can you know there's a lot of simple things to talk about that will help most people really quick like you see it on Twitter all the time how many people have this thing that they have to earn their own self-love that there's something wrong or narcissistic about unconditional self-love and I'm like no no that's like it's the core of everything is unconditional self-love you should not have to earn your self-love you can you can still bitch yourself out for not working out but love yourself like you don't hate your kids if you have to say hey you forgot to do your chore like you don't stop loving them you need unconditional self-love and the number of people who resist that and think that that's evil is astounding so people don't get trained for that so that's one helping people give themselves permission to relax like people need to actually there's so little relaxation you have to give yourself permission to actually stop I have one person I talked to client ish client he's a doctor in an emergency room and like it changed his world I'm like yeah you're busy you literally have to lock yourself into a toilet stall and set a 96 90 second timer on your watch and stop be yourself for 90 seconds and he's like oh that changed my life and I'm like you have to give yourself permission to relax it doesn't take it doesn't have to be an hour that's great for changing brain chemistry but that's not what it like 90 seconds is fine three breaths is fine you know one breath to identify it another breath to like conceptualize it and the third breath to release it that's great simple 15 seconds 20 seconds depends on how fast you breathe I guess like I can I can make that take 45 seconds just like so but a lot of it stuff like that just so much of coaching that I see is based on try harder do more be stronger be faster be like and I'm like okay that's all great but at some point in time you also have to like kind of acknowledge yourself and be yourself and I do a lot of that I'm constantly reminding my people to stop being what other people think you are because that's that is a huge one this isn't always the best thing for like if your goal is to be a salesman the best salesman ever and probably not your guy my goal is not to tell you to be what your customer wants you to be you you just have to know when to turn it off how is a big one that I'm still I'm still amazed at how many people don't know how to like themselves let's drop let's drop the love part for me and just like themselves like unconditional self-like infinite number of hierarchies well it or infinite number of situations you don't have to be with those judgy people you can out with these other judgy people who you like better or judge different things like if I have those yeah I definitely need to redo that book because there's so much more to it there's the the three rules and this is so core to everything do stuff don't stop and finish something every day but here's the thing do stuff because when you do stuff things happen it's very simple very simple mechanical rule if you do stuff things happen and we like it when things happen so just do stuff well you got to do stuff or nothing happened so do doing stuff you know the core there is that right action align yourself with yourself so that what you're doing is what you want to be doing need to be doing should be doing intuitively know you should be doing whatever so you're going to do the right stuff the don't stop part has two really big components a lot of times people stop doing stuff in a creative sense because they have what's called a lacka they lack a something I would be a sculptor but I lack a tool you know I would fix this car but I lack a tool there's there's a lacka problem so people will go on Amazon and spend eight hours dreaming about all the stuff that they could get that would enable them to do stuff you don't don't don't do that I I once made a a set of rooms rooms like for Oracle use out of a stick and a ballpoint pen that I found on the ground I had a pocket knife so I could cut the stick up you know I there's there's never a lack you always do the stuff so don't don't stop part one is don't let a lack of stuff stop you keep doing something the other part is don't let yourself stop yourself if you are in a massive state of depression and you just cannot handle doing all seven dishes all at once wash a dish take an hour break wash a dish just don't stop if you have to go that slow you're going to feel so much better just for doing it if you're that far down you're going to feel way better for doing it but don't you know if you're having a bad day and you don't feel motivated that's fine take a break but don't stop just don't stop and rule number three isn't finish something every day it's finish some thing every day there has to be something every day that you can finish and say I did that because you have to celebrate some kind of accomplishment because it gives you horsepower it gives you motivation it gives you that momentum it gives you the brain training I said earlier minds always do what we tell them well if you tell your mind that it's awesome that you finished something then your mind is going to want you to finish more stuff and work with you instead of against you if you celebrate not finishing stuff oh I could finish that but I'm not good enough so I'm going to eat ice cream well you just told your mind to feed you ice cream and not do stuff so if you finish if you finish some something every day and it doesn't matter what it is big small you know not all projects are one day of projects you know you have a two-year project someday it's going to get done but some particular discrete thing every day you need to finish and recognize that celebrate it it gives your mind that that training that doing finishing things is important so those are the three rules do stuff don't stop and finish something every day come on I'm bouncing off the walls like a squirrel already right I talk I talk like this I do I talk like this um my my friends will someone new will come up and they'll be like so tell me about the enlightenment thing and my friends are like oh no here it comes I saw a squirrel and he ran across the road and he didn't get hit by a car we yeah um ferret with pixie sticks no there's always stuff to add but the real I guess the core is yeah that's the other thing I want to add stop adding things stop adding things yeah that's one of the biggest problems people have when it comes to doing self-improvement work is adding things sometimes the simple simple stuff really is simple but people complexify it like have you see um you've seen this you saw this with the keto world now you're going to see it with the carnivore world originally the keto diet was really simple don't eat so many carbs well then it got all complex there's net carbs and there's ingredients and there's these recipes to make chocolate cake that's not really chocolate cake and it got all stop adding things just eat the steak and salad and you'll be fine it worked 50 years ago it still works it's like the carnivore thing now people go and they do carnivore for healing it's great that's fine but then people they're now adding snack there are snack companies for carnivore stuff I'm like stop adding things you'd think but there's there's stuff with like seven eight ingredients in it now um and then people are are adding things to carnivore like oh well technically honey's carnivore and I'm like yeah okay but carnivores can eat berries but that's actually a thing now eat fruit it's part of your carnivore diet and I'm like okay well but it goes into a lot of stuff if people add things we we always have a new um most people yeah stop adding if it works it works and people change over time so what works one day may not work the next but that doesn't mean like people just build layers and layers and layers if you see a new situation a brand new situation something you've never seen before the average human responses to say it's just like this but with this and this and this instead of directly experiencing they translate it into something they already know and then add five or six layers of stuff I'm like that's adding things just experience what's there so yeah that's what I know so sideways coyote is the same for substack and twitter and then there's a youtube where I say all the crazy stuff and that's 23 degrees sideways and I post the videos on twitter so that's easy to link I don't I don't know if my youtube is actually searchable I have like a hundred subscribers so it's very small okay I'll I can DM you some of that too I can I can DM you the channel link that makes it easy that way you can watch my videos on why consensus decision-making is emotional bullying so there uh yeah thank you that was awesome

What's new in your world? It snowed the other day, so just a shift in perspective winter is just about here I Had to stop over to a work trip into South Dakota this week and had some Interesting time. I said that do a training, but I Was reading on the flight it was you know only an hour flight or so, but reading the way of the pilgrim on the flight over and made some good headway through that there and was kind of practicing the you know some of the elements from the story thus far and You know just kind of trying out the Jesus prayer just seeing how it feels and kind of cultivating it like a meditative practice which was interesting and Yeah, and so, you know, I guess I'll just bring up an interesting thing that had had is doing that so I you know I landed in South Dakota and Hope that I cut out there came I Can hear you fine. I'm using myself. So maybe it sounded different for you, but I'm still here Got it. Okay So anyway, I had landed and you know, it was a tiny regional airport that I had flown into and I I didn't I didn't rent a car My hotel was a mile mile and a half from the airport. It was like, oh, whatever. I'll just walk there and So I land in start walking towards the hotel It's South Dakota. So it's really windy because there's no nothing to block the wind and While I'm walking I'm you know kind of practicing saying the Jesus prayer like in the way the pilgrim just kind of repetitively you know Into this in the future How does that prayer go? Yeah, so it's just a couple of words, right Lord Jesus Christ have mercy on me leave as The way that it goes and I don't know if you want to get into the whole point of it but the point is basically the way the pilgrim is learning how to pray unceasingly and So there's this it's almost like a mantra and similar vein to Some meditations where you practice with a word like oh, you know something similar like that. So but this is from a You know Christianity perspective with the Jesus prayer And so anyway, the idea is that at first you start off and you're doing it kind of just going through the motions and kind of getting a feel for it and The point is that as you start to Practice that it starts to kind of take on a life of its own and cultivate feelings of positivity warmness and connection with God and something that continues to kind of Continue being practiced below the surface almost in some sense subconsciously And so this was kind of a new idea to me something I found very interesting as someone that finds meditation interesting and You know someone that likes to try new things that I just kind of put it on for size and So in any event, you know walking towards my hotel practicing the Jesus prayer It's it's not Finally means like cold out, but it is windy So I'm kind of coming up to One of the main roads see a gas station like oh great I'll just stop over get a snack and something warm and then keep walking and just grab a hot chocolate and start walking again Anyway, once I come out of the gas station. There's this Start walking towards the hotel this guy You know stops over by me Oh, sure. Yes, I'm just going down the street here. So he picks me up and Drops me drives me down to the hotel just a couple minutes away and You know someone from the area and he's chatted kind of briefly and they dropped me off he had asked me for his number but Later that night he had you know Is the exchange numbers and then he texted me later that night asking if If I had an extra bed in my hotel because he was living in his car And he was having trouble finding a place to to stay and it was just kind of stressful for him Anyway, I I didn't have an extra bed in my hotel and you know still Cautious individual, but you know, I just kind of took this as a sign as No You know was reaching out for for help in whatever way that he could Actually some some might say he could have enough money to you know have a consistent place to stay over Just kind of open to Experiences with other humans and seeing them as you know individuals on their own journey and you know I just think being in the headspace of you know the way of the pilgrim and That kind of Cultivating a kindness and consistent connection with God is something that I think kind of led to that experience taking place Because normally I just rent a car and just kind of you know be in my own world And I just kind of allowed things to happen. So anyway, it's a little bit of a side story But something worthwhile to bring up I guess You know, that's excellent. I it at a certain point I think when When he had asked you if you had a bed he could stay in it cut out for a minute there And I I feel like I caught the tail end of you saying that you had helped him out financially so that he could Get his feet on the ground for the next week or two or a couple of weeks or something like that Right. Oh, yeah, so he asked if I had an extra bed in the room. I was staying in I didn't at the time so I thought instead, you know, I can help him out financially and You know in a way that's a bit more stable So and he was you know, very appreciative. He was in a tough spot and You know, we tried to coordinate lunch the next day, but I just didn't have enough time with training But you know just treating people like the the humans that they are when we're in a tough spot You know extending the kindness that I would hope It's funny when Speaking of the way of the pilgrim and the story that you're sharing with me about meeting this individual The thought of mine for me had to do with in the story in the in the story the way of the pilgrim where He comes upon He comes upon the family with like the husband who's like a judge and the children who like Him in the house and the wife is all happy because they're just the and I think they have like a guest house out in front of their house for people to stay in just you know The world The world in some places in the past where like it was customary to have a guest house For anyone who just like happened to be walking by down the road right and Yeah, you know, I mean I feel like I was thinking about it earlier today on a couple of different occasions you know The devastation that automobiles have wrought upon the heart of man Right you mean in terms of hospitality Well, yeah, absolutely in terms of you know like we're so Interacting with one another Because we're always in our own cars in our own bubbles in our own spheres Whereas you know in the past you couldn't exist in the world, you know without you know like interacting with people as you Like move through their space, right? Yeah, right. Yeah, it used to be much more unavoidable and you know, you know, whether it's cars globalization, you know all of these similar, you know inextricably Separated the individual from their community So I Take it that from what you told me that you started you started praying the Jesus prayer now you you did read Franny and Zoe already Yes, yeah, so I read Franny. I didn't actually read finish reading Zoe yet. I got too antsy So so I'm sure I'll come back to Zoe and it'll be interesting connections, but yeah Well, keep in mind the you know the the thing about that prayer is is that it easily put force Right, you know, you don't want to you don't want to just go praying it all the time willy-nilly because Life gets weird right or we're dirt So speaking of Prayer and the weirdness of life I see you on Twitter every day Sharing lots of wonderful and insightful things and I just I wonder What you wonder about these days like what's what's present in your mind in your life? Yeah, you know, it's it's an interesting question You know, it's the fastest at all something that's always always at the forefront of my mind You know the the connections better interaction and Safe exchange of knowledge of individual fires curious And cultivating that Inner felt sense of this is very interesting to me. This is very curious to me is it's something that I've always felt very strongly about and Being able to find communities online of people that are very similar work. They care about things that are adjacent but still Passionate and exciting to them, even if it's not directly related to the things I'm working with but in a way They're very much interrelated and interconnected or when you combine these elements you start to find Interesting connections that wouldn't have occurred to you on the surface And so I really like to practice, you know, some elements of you know, perennial philosophy of what are the common Streams that are undercurrents between, you know, many many ideas, whether it's religion, philosophy these things and How can they be applied to an individual's understanding of themselves and the reality that they find themselves in and So for me a big part of how I use Twitter is similar to You know, the kind of meditative reading of spiritual texts where you kind of try to shut off the analytical part of your brain and allow this kind of vibrational pattern matching to think together it's kind of you know, Ian McGillichrist's idea of left brain versus right brain and Kind of get out of your own way get out of the critics way of your brain of just kind of harping on ideas and just allow things to serve Fists and then assess them as they kind of come out and you after you've had a chance to even play with them You're right So don't let allow an idea to be still boring. It's even had a chance to you know, turn it into something interesting And so Something that's been really exciting to me is say all right. Well, I'm just gonna Like when I'm tweeting it's just let me see what comes out and then kind of get it out of me first and then see what anyone says And it leads to a lot of interesting discussions. And so that's something that has been a lot of fun to build up more of a Network of individuals that have had fun conversations with and seeing what their perspectives are Who Who and what have you found interesting recently? Um, let's see here. Well, there's The grand blooms it was by handle Barry him and I have had, you know range of discussions on consciousness and things like that, but he I recently You might have sought commissioned him for a Project to produce this piece of jewelry for my wife That came out absolutely fantastic, but we kind of worked together on coming up with a You call it like an heirloom piece, but the idea was to come up with something that looked but had a similar pattern to this Magnetic ferro cell piece where it's basically just this interconnected fiber-looking piece these kind of twisted field lines but the very works at the intersection of you know Programmable generative art 3d printing metal casting and so being able to work with him in a way that is Much more rep reminiscent of working with like your friendly village blacksmith or jeweler Where you have a meaningful discussion and you talk about what you're trying to do and it's something that actually has You know inherit meaning to the individual it that's being produced in mind for it's not something that is Coming off of the shelf and meant to be sold as a commodity as I would say most jewelry is today And so so that was a lot of fun to interact with a skilled Individual in a way that I think is really uncommon today right Yeah, I mean it's It's the difference between being a customer and a consumer because he's custom making this for you You know as opposed to you just Consuming one of many replicas that exist on shelves around the world and and yeah, you know I mean for me, I think there was a point when Years back I recognized although in in spite of this recognition of what I think is Probably a pretty good universal truth. I don't actually live it out in my day-to-day, but the only way that a Worldwide economy Can work I think is really if Everything you like if you only if you know the name of the person who made the thing you bought right? And and the same for them and everything through the supply chain you know like to have that personal relationship is Probably the only way to sustainably have a person in this world right Yeah, well, and there's you know, there's been some interesting Chatter lately about you know, there's this The Nobel Prize in physics recently went to a group of individuals that had produced experiments and really fleshed out ideas from John I think it's John Bell, I believe maybe I'm wrong but the last name is Bell. It's in reference to Bell in a quality so it just has to do with how Entangled particles have a specific connection In in terms of the information that's entangled between the two whether they're spin up or spin down It doesn't really matter but the point is that there's some inherent connection between the two that has information encoded In their relationship between the two decided until it's measured, right? So even if they're you know a Billion light years away. They have in essence some I'm trying to think primordial connection that's beneath space-time. That's relational It's outside of space-time because the information in some sense travels faster than light But you can't use it to trans as far as we know You can't use it to transfer information faster than light because you don't know that they took a measurement when they're, you know X distance away But when you take the measurement then whatever you measure they get the opposite, right? But the point is that they have this intrinsic link of their information Even if it can't be used to actually transmit additional information and so the point is that? There is this undercurrent Even beneath quantum mechanics that appears to be strictly relational That perhaps quantum mechanics arises out of where it's this purely entanglement-based relational base these interactions that produces the reality that we seem to inhabit and What I think is beautiful about that idea is that you know individuals like John Vermeke and among others that kind of talk about the meaning crisis and how people feel so disconnected from their their communities and from themselves that a big way to resolve that is to Rebuild those connections and to rebuild that network and I just think it's such a beautiful idea that at the very core of reality It's all relationships in some sense and that that just continues to be true up all the way to the To the level of human beings and and so much so that if we're disconnected from those relations in that that meaning then we're miserable Yeah, so in the structure of reality is the tool set for building meaning What What what what is it all mean to you? Where do you find meaning? You know for me it's really in the curiosity in the infinite game as it would be put by maybe that's Douglas Hofstetter, but you know the The community engagement of ICU you see me We are working towards you know ideas that we find interesting for their own sake It's just fun to interact with each other and it and hold each other's company And you know Rob Rob does as this, you know, we talked about you know When people kind of lose that ember inside themselves and they start to rekindle it and usually that's you know In some sense sitting around the fire with others You know we think about that inner fire and that when you kind of acknowledge that You start to realize that all we're really gonna do for eternity is sit around the fire Which to me is the infinite game right like the game continues to change and evolve But in a sense, it's the same exact game, which is just this this beautiful interconnection and relational Substrate that makes up both the universe and ourselves at the same time and that you can't pull them apart There is no individual without the other They're ink the concepts only make sense in relation to them together Right, yeah, I mean that Brings to mind for me, you know Often lately I think to myself about how You know, we as human beings are part of You know, we're We think of ourselves as human beings, but we are earthlings, right? Like we are like the micro vile of the outer membrane of the cell that is the planet earth and the notion that I don't know the notion that there's something for us out there on mards or Somewhere else in space. I mean not that we couldn't find an environment that we could Cross into but you know I I think I think I get what you're saying, you know, there's two ways to look at it, right? There's there's this unbelievable overwhelming beauty that exists on earth that isn't apart from us It is us, right? It is in a sense the entirety of the organism of earth as one cohesive ecosystem And and then the other way to look at it is well, you know, we look out into this vast universe that seems to have such incomprehensible Space and extent and there's All sorts of I mean there's truly uncountable amount of planets and stars and all that stuff Whether there's life out there or not there probably is but you know to the extent that we know We have no idea but you know the idea that there's this kind of infinite game that yeah, we've got this character that's beautiful and it's incredible and extending that game into you know, different worlds is something that's you know Equally as interesting, right? I like to think of you know, the sacred provides us a arena to exist and to explore And the people that find it interesting and exciting to explore space should do that because that's what excites them that's what you know activates them as an animus and those that get activated by Protecting and enriching the existing earth should also do that, right? Like there's a reason that individuals are called to do different things and that's what allows the infinite game to continue Yeah Your your your words are very good. I I get caught up in mental images as you're speaking Which I appreciate that aren't necessarily directly related to your words because You know, I've got my own processes going on. I was thinking about Because and this partially it's funny too because so I'm in school studying Massage and we're doing some biology stuff And so I've got a workbook. I've got to do that's got cell diagram and things and and on the wall in front of me There's this tapestry that has Arcing lines that make me think of like part of the surface of the earth and then another one past it that makes me think of like Uh, you know a representation of like the ionosphere or the inner outer space spine And then I'm thinking about self. Oh, here's okay. So speaking of because earlier we were talking about Uh, religious things and prayer and then consciousness um What do you think about higher order beings? Do you think that there are such things and when I say that in this moment? I'm I'm thinking of uh higher order beings on the order of like if the earth was actually like In relative size a cell In a larger body that is this like completely different order level being Yeah, you know, this is something that I thought about Quite a lot and it's one of those one of those topics that it's It is very precarious because You start to feel this is where you can get you know, D realization depersonalization, you know, what's real what's not real and it can The land is treacherous. Um, yeah, because I I could see Away because I love the idea of the universe as a fractal as life itself as a fractal these infinite games and these infinite arenas And I've and I've certainly had psychedelic experiences that have solidly reinforced that idea um And and so I could I could absolutely see that there would be Some sort of higher order consciousness that is just of a different kind of the type that we experience Just like there are of different kinds of consciousness that different animals insects Uh individual cells that they might experience right it it certainly likes something to be a cell because it exists in it performs operation Is there any way that I could? Understand what that's like. Maybe maybe not I don't really know how But there is an interesting You know story the the individual That uh came up with pcr pcr testing For genetics. Um, yeah he So he had a history of taking psychedelics in the 60s and 70s and that allowed him to Contort his mind and his imagination into a way that he could imagine himself being in a cell being around the dna and imagining what it would be like if he were these These organizations of of molecules and and so and I've certainly experienced similar things as a result of psychedelics of being able to imagine what it would be like to not only be various classes of animals but Being at you know supremely different levels of scale, right? Whether that's at the scale of an atom or at the scale of a cell or the scale of the universe Um, but it's it's a very strange world to be in because it's so different from how we typically live our day-to-day lives and You know this kind of comes as left brain versus right brain or whether it's dominant brain versus non dominant brain hemisphere from McGillicris but it's very much a non verbal experience where You're not thinking in language. You're thinking in rotations movements there's Uh, that is just a very different way that is difficult to compress into back into language and then explain um Which I think says something about The substrate of consciousness. That's very interesting I don't know what that is yet, but but I think to me it says something that it can be useful in terms of discovering Novel element world just by imagining what it would be like. I mean, I think that's incredible And you talk about these kind of higher order beings You know, my wife's reading this book What is it like the Light of raw or something like that. Anyway, it's a book about these, you know, this group of individuals that uh did these like Small experiments of just there a couple of people in like the 80s. I want to say where they tried to like channel A direct connection through a human host to what was being called raw and I don't think it was exactly the same as Uh, you know, what's called raw in Egypt, but I think something along the lines But the way it's described so they kind of basically get this individual into a meditative state and then channel through it So kind of like an oracle in some sense Yeah Yeah, yeah, exactly. And so But but the point is that part of what they discuss in there is You know, this channeling is that there are allegedly these higher order beings That have tried to, you know, softly guide humans towards, you know, achieving this higher level of consciousness and And they've certainly had their own mistakes, but they kind of talk about how You know doing That there are higher orders or at least different types of orders of consciousness that are out there and The key is you have to understand how to interact with them and and essentially receive the message And, you know, while on the surface, you're like, oh, you know, whatever. That's totally nonsense, blah, blah, blah You know, I certainly like to keep an open mind that, you know, look We we don't know probably a fraction of a fraction of what is even possible for Uh, the universe and so to to out of hand You know, just totally write off anything above us. I think is just a very childish way to Investigate the world, you know, to think that oh well humans are it where the peak of consciousness just seems kind of, you know, silly When you look at the scales of the universe Whether or not the veracity of these sorts of claims are accurate, you know, who knows but but I think that it seems already abundantly clear at the very least that there are in some sense super human As a result of, you know, the way our society is interconnected if you look at financial markets Just economics in general Where there's something going on at a level above us that is kind of guiding humans along a gradient for economic expansion That we aren't that no individual human is privy to right so to extend that to the earth as a whole where evolution is you know constantly evolving and Perhaps being guided in some sense, right? Maybe not the way that we think where humans kind of get in there with their Hands and kind of are rough with it But but a guiding that can take place over Thousands hundreds of thousands millions of years They're conceivable to me And and I think could you know, there's this interesting idea called human resonances Which has to do with an idea that's Right, right. Yeah, so well, that's that's a better way to put it. It's not just an idea but An idea that many people don't know of Um, but yeah a phenomenon that does exist and is observed Uh, where the electromagnetic field of the earth resonates like a bell at different frequencies The fundamental frequency of being around seven and a half Hertz and then Well, seven eight three it's the golden right or the golden ratio Um, well the I don't know if that was Actually, don't know if she was related to that and it certainly might be I just don't know off the top of my head If that if that's actually well, I know that the default like when when shuman when shuman resonance is that kind of it's Typical default state. It's like seven point eight three Hertz and I believe seven point eight three Hertz like seven point eight three is the It is a ratio. I thought we stood golden ratio If it is that's certainly very interesting and I want to look into that Sorry, but oh, yeah, I was going to say but but you know whether or not it's certainly even more interesting if that's true Obviously because there's plenty of really interesting The golden ratio is one point six one. There's kind of there's a relationship between Between the two though. I'm gonna try to see if I can find it out Go ahead. Right. Um, but but if you look at the kind of increments the the different frequency increments Um, again the fundamentals right around between seven and eight, but um, the point is that if you if you look at the Resonances of brain states, uh, whether it's in humans or other animals The most typical just kind of alert but relaxed state is around that same exact fundamental frequency Right. So this seven seven point four eight or whatever it is And so the increments, uh, very neatly match up with uh, different increments of brain states in humans and many other animals And so the idea is that well, there's the earth the earth is the kind of Primordial object that life on earth is organizing around Um, and and not only that the neural activity of that life also directly matches up with the increments of Resonant activity in the electromagnetic field of the earth host Um, so so there's there's a very specific organizing principle that's occurring on a global scale for all life on this planet and to Not ascribe any agency to that is perhaps Uh naive we might not understand what that agency looks like but it's uh, it's an agency nonetheless that Basically has set the tone of creation for earth when it comes to life, which I think is a really beautiful set in sentiment Yeah, no, I mean it's it to me that makes me think of um I don't know almost like we're We're interactive semiconductors, you know, uh, just operating all off of the same energetic frequency as as earthlings be it Human earthlings dog earthlings, you know elk earthlings, etc Well, and what's in my opinion even even more interesting is that you know, when I when I compare and contrast that with psychedelic experiences I've had and in particular Uh DMT experiences I've had where When I am blindfolded and I've got headphones on where I'm totally disconnected from the bulk of the Sensory information that would normally be anchoring me to the reality that I'm happening when I've kind of blocked off all that and then I take these substances what I find is that I I basically go into this realm of pure imagination it's it's totally disconnected from anything and At first it can be very chaotic and complex And it's like your brain is trying to grab on to something and make sense of it And depending your mental state and stuff like that you might go in one direction or the other um, but it It's almost like the infinite landscape of possibility where it's like well What do I come up with and that's one of the interesting things of psychedelic experiences that on the fly your brain can create unbelievably complex Not only complex but meaningfully complex meaningfully in terms of with meaning Um experiences for you to interact with right, which is when you look at the studies on end of life experiences For people with terminal illness or addiction or any of these things for psychedelic compound studies The the thing that always indicates Whether or not the individual is going to have a meaningful clinical response Is the degree to which they're having a mystical experience or in another way How meaningful to them in terms of narrative form was the experience that they just had right? And which is incredible to me because you know somehow our brain is able to tap into these networks of meaning um with the help of these compounds and What I've noticed on dmt Especially if you're in a pretty good spot mentally and you don't really need to kind of actively process any Is that it opens up a landscape of essentially infinite possibility? and So you can get you can get quite weird with it, but I've had kind of I don't know if you want to call it pre-verbal, but I've had kind of experiences on these where it's like It becomes immediately obvious that what the earth is doing is it setting the fundamental frequency for life to organize around on this planet Because if you don't have that then it's just utter chaos, right? It's like nothing's in sync everything is out of whack and it just ends up being something that isn't Stable that that doesn't have the correct complexity or coherency to be stable into the future And the only reason anything exists at our level is because The level of complexity is stable up to this stage and And if that weren't true, of course, we wouldn't be here Yeah So it's kind of like a I don't know if you want to call it dual or non dual representations, but it's like this The world of forms versus the world of instantiated forms So very much a kind of platonic experience in some sense Okay, so there's a couple of things I want to share with you that have come up in my mind While you've been speaking Uh One is a question if you are aware of a book if you're not then it turns into another book recommendation Do you know the book star maker? For some reason it's ringing a bell, but I haven't read it Okay, so it Was published in 1937. It's a really amazing science fiction story about a guy who Kind of like goes to sleep But winds up traveling through space until he meets another species that's similar enough to humans while being very different Uh, and it goes on from there. Uh, and the book is called star maker for a reason because the the cosmic extent of Uh, personhoods that this guy encounters becomes, you know, uh Reaches that higher level order. Uh, so yeah, you might check it out. I learned about it when I was reading The beginning of one of john c lily's books about Hacking or programming the human biocomputer right And it sounds fascinating It is it is in fact this this book star maker is where the scientist Uh, whose last name is dyson that guy read star maker and took the concept from star maker for the sphere Like it's really even really yeah, the guy shouldn't really be called the dyson sphere It should be called the stapledon sphere because olaf stapledon describes it in star maker And that's where dyson cribbed his idea from And okay, so you ended The speech that you just gave talking about platonic and That brings me to the realm of form And shapes and you mentioned shape rotation earlier And are you familiar with the hypercube? Uh, yeah in terms of higher dimensional geometry Yeah, yeah, I mean so I heard I was thinking about yeah this this this higher dimensional geometry back in the summer time And I was listening to whatever podcasts I could find on it and they were talking about this guy who Created this model of like 12 cubes stacked on top of each other and he He he studied them to the extent that every face and every vertices He gave them each gave gave all of these different elements of this massive hypercube And colors and he was able to create the model in his mind and then have this fully formed model with you know Like a couple hundred parts to it Held together in his imaginal space and was then able to rotate it and and you know Basically, he kind of said like okay if we got everyone to do this Then the world would be a completely different place because the amount of I don't even know but yeah Just like the amount of evolution that it creates in a mind is pretty profound. I've never even tried it personally Well, it's funny you bring that up because over the summer I um I was actually working with an individual named dad roberts and he's working on this physics project um Where he has stumbled across uh an object called the hyperbolic figure eight complement not So the hyperbolic figure eight not and then it's associated complement The point is it's essentially a higher dimensional object that You can see The most simplest geometrical object That you could create And that you could create and that it would be stable as an elevate as a process of evolution right as something that goes through uh dynamic processes and evolves through time And so he's been working on this project for a while anyway, I I connected with him over the summer and then Myself along with a couple other people actually went out to um Utah to do like a little You know pow wow with him for a couple of days And to this day. I still interact with them. I talked to them last week and I think but so I've done uh You know, I'm not a mathematician by training, but I'm someone that enjoys math and enjoy thinking about math in ways that is more playful and adventurous Rather than just kind of getting bogged down in the What modern mathematics has turned into which is basically a status game of rigor That is interesting in some sense But I think has in a lot of ways impeded progress by making it so impenetrable for most people and so so a lot of the ways that I like to do mathematics is By kind of like you're describing by visualizing. What would it be like for these properties to be true? And it's interesting that you bring up the hypercube because um When we talk about a hypersphere just the same idea but instead of a cube. It's just a sphere Um, and there's something called here, which is the first hypersphere Which just means that if you take a sphere and you go up one more dimension That's now our hypersphere. But the that hypersphere actually describes the electromagnetic field in terms of its properties and how it evolves through time, right? So we already know that there are higher dimensional objects that are taking place in our reality and that Intimately make up the substrate and structure of everything around us so So I love when other people are exploring those ideas Um, because I think they're so fascinating and it's it can be a very unusual way to Visualize in your mind because it's so so different than how you normally interact with the world and it's The only way I can describe it is that like it has to do with Rotating your perspective, right? So it's not like you're moving a body in space. You're just moving your perspective in space So imagine that your awareness is a camera and you could You know go, you know expand the degrees of you know What the light coming in is or just rotate it around all these things or see everything from all these different directions Um, so it's something that is really difficult to to then transfer into words but what I've noticed is that there's there's a level of Familiarity as you start to go through that that kind of Your intuition where if you don't if you don't again have the critic come in and go No, this is wrong. What proof do you have this blah blah blah? If you just allow the kind of intuition to just gently guide you and In kind of follow that that nonverbal process I start to find that there's some very interesting intuitions that start to build up that are difficult to again Convert back into language and then explain to somebody Which isn't to say that it's impossible. It's just that I don't know how to do that, but But it's okay. Well, I mean you you saying that you know was like an almost immediate prompt for me to say, okay Well, tell me more about it describe it for me. What have you learned in doing this and and also, you know Taking a little step back from the excitement. The question is so have you combined these? You know, have you have you combined the? Previously discussed sensory deprivation deep dm experience the intention of Hyper shapes, yeah, so Um, so unfortunately, I haven't done that part yet Um, I and the reason for that is because I'm I'm out of dmt and I have to extract more so that I could do it Um, and so I have everything I just need to do it um, and so so anyway, it uh to-do list but I haven't done it yet, but But I've had enough experiences that it um has again influenced and fundamentally changed how I You know, again interact with these mathematical objects in in my Awareness in the first place So am I to take it? Somewhere in the world you have possessive control over a bag of jerima Well, I don't know what what that is. Uh, oh, okay. It's a reference to something but It's a it's a plant extract that can that you can extract Uh, that's discussed from Gotcha. No, so it will it comes from um Mimosa hostilus root bark so a little bit So I don't know what the uh, what the other one comes from but if but it's it's in most um In most plants, although it's the constant. It's the concentration that you're after, right? So there's you know, Mimosa hostilus, which is usually around between one and three percent of the uh root bark um, and then there's the Acacia root bark, which I think comes out of Australia. Um, that has a relatively similar content But I believe most plants have that where is that? Where does that come from? I believe it comes from brazil Oh, okay Or at least somewhere in south america so so so at some point in the future You'll have a report on Or you'll have you'll have an experience that you could report on about The the combination of shape rotation in that kind of deeply Uh disassociated state Yes, well, that's the hope and my hope is that it comes within the next couple of weeks or so here But it's it's it's interesting because you know, I kind of go in spurts when it comes to mathematics of you know It's think about all day and all night and then I kind of burn myself out a little bit When I get stuck and then I take a little break think about something else And then that curiosity comes back when it feels right and then I and then I re-enter back into that state And so I'm hoping to time up this next extraction with uh with the mathematical curiosity bump so that when I when I Do this or when I try to have the experience I'm kind of in tune because one of the things I've noticed with with DMT is that if I If I try to force it too much it's very interesting when I try to force it too much. It's almost like I overshoot. It's um It's very difficult to put into words But it's it's like When it comes on so quickly and I've kind of taken it quite a lot now that I've gotten fairly used to it I guess you could say and if I if I kind of it's almost like threading a needle if I kind of miss the window that I'm shooting for I kind of just like end up being sober and everything kind of subsides and my like brain just kind of kills the whole trip um And so I'm trying to it's very much like meditation where it's like kind of trying to enter a jana And you're trying to hit this window and I'm trying to still build that skill So let me ask you then about that we are you Are you a jana uh practitioner? Can you sit down and get into a jana? So it's not something that I've practiced extensively yet. I just know enough about it to have the vocabulary Where I can personally at least Understand the bulk of what people are talking about. Um, right So I would say that I'm probably comfortable and familiar with the first stage but that would be the Furthest extent of kind of what I've practiced, but it is something that I intend on um Practicing much more deeply in the future as I You know as the timing feels right. I guess it's how I put it I gotta say it's really cool the Um I don't know man just like having this conversation with you and what so what's your educational background? So well In one sense my background is in finance Um, and I only worked in finance for a couple of years out of school Before I went went down more entrepreneurial path. Um, but in another sense um I would say I'm a student of the universe where I just again going back to that that kind of internal pull of curiosity That is something that I've always felt very strongly about listening to throughout my entire life and not not being clear of where that came from but just something that I've always valued and So I've always been a very very curious person that would you know, watch videos on mathematics physics You know language like anything I get my hands on anything that I found interesting Um, and and that's how I tend to learn best when I kind of have that hyper fixation of I need to know everything about it's like it just clicks And that tends to not be how Uh, you learn in university and so That's why I like to say that I'm much more so a student of the universe because You know the synchronicity of as information comes into my awareness seems very And sometimes very suspicious almost Uh, where it just feels like, huh The synchronicity of this is almost very uh, too on the nose And I don't know if that's just me attributing too much to it or not But I try to not think about it too much and just be happy that it's happening But I tend to find that What I would attribute most of my understanding from You're gonna I hopefully you're gonna forgive me, but when you say that What what what is the that that you're pointing to? This feels like a very much like a wittgensteinian question. Um, so that's a good question. I mean I would I would say that john vervecki if you're familiar with his work, uh puts this in a way that I think Best describes it in a way that I couldn't put any better And in the way that he says this is that when kind of talking about the sacred whether it's god or whatever you want to think of it as You know the secular sacred it's that The sacred is the source of intelligibility Without itself being intelligible And for my understanding of what he means by that is that The thing that allows us to make sense of reality at all You know to any degree that we understand reality Is the same thing that has a scratching us our heads saying what the heck is going on? How are we here? you know Why is it that anything exists and it seems to be that You know, well, you'll you'll get the kind of through line that like you've got this understanding and you can like almost see it to the end but it's like it's like almost a Fun house of mirrors where you'll never be able to see the whole picture And in one of the ways that he puts this is that the way that we Replicate or come to the the idea of the sacred or the the perspective of the sacred is through shared perspective and what he means by that is that Through communal interaction with other humans, but also other just life in general Right or whether that's imaginal or through other living processes where As a result of sharing perspective between these two separate entities You further approximate how the sacred sees So if you imagine like a painting that looks at you right when you look at the painting It appears that the painting is looking back at you Now you're getting into icons Yeah And so when you have two people that are looking at the painting and they both think that oh the painting is looking at me Right the idea is that in a sense. That's how the sacred sees Right where it takes all perspectives at once And so for us since we only in perspective we have to share our perspectives to better approximate how the sacred sees I think though Given the evidence of testimony that I've received just by paying attention in the world There isn't just one perspective that humans have right Right well I don't know if you're disagreeing or not, but I think that's what we're perhaps full saying right where it's It's the entire scope of potential perspectives that That remains kind of the source of intelligibility, but we only have to an incredibly small slice and most of the time that slice is just wrong Which is why we need to have more perspectives because most of us are just wrong so But every once in a while someone has a perspective that's very useful and then it lets us do very interesting things Sure. Yeah, I mean what Einstein and Feynman and and people of that nature they've they've made dramatic shifts in Human understanding just by having a moment of of of deep perspectives Right and those are both individuals that the imaginal was core to their Um, their understanding and their innovation right like they they performed thought experiments or they Yeah, or they did things in their head that was very much kind of pre-verbal But that applies more to Feynman than Einstein I think because Feynman developed these Feynman diagrams Very very complex when you actually had to do all the math But for the most part he was just doing it in his head and then saying well, this was the math that did it and these Feynman diagrams optimally recently Have now been kind of concatenated into something that's much more condensed and smaller more effective And that continues to be true, but there's whole physics things around that but but the point is that you know again To just like think your way into that is something that's so fascinating to me, right like to be able to do that on basically pure intuition But this is true both Feynman and Einstein were you know when Einstein first came out with special relativity For the year prior to that Like every day he'd be going on a walk with one of his Good friends who I believe was a fellow professor And they would just be talking every day about what Einstein was trying to think through And all of a sudden it clicked and then it turned into special relativity And that just kind of shows you why you know doing things on your own is You know almost an entirely a fool's errand, right the polls we Have a shared experience and interact with each other That unlocks Ways of thinking that we're not previously accessible Um I don't know how precious your time is at this point. I'm I'm at least somewhat aware that we've been on for probably an hour or just about now Yeah, I'm just on a walk right now. So, uh, I'm I'm for you to keep going Cool. Cool. Yeah, I think we could keep going for a little while longer. I just wanted to check in and make sure you didn't feel any pressure by By relation to time I gotta I gotta give you credit because I am I am feeble of mind compared to you when it comes to the the orders of understanding That you're capable of. Uh, I I you know, I don't know a guy who, uh, you know, is developing hypersphere or Model things and I don't have the the time of the money or anything to offer to somebody who did To travel down to the southwest to meet them But kudos to you very cool and I feel special for getting to talk to you When it comes to DMT insights, I don't know how aware you are of are you aware of the of dark retreats and and and their their functional chemical spots What was what was the phrase you use dark retreats? Yeah Uh, no, I'm not familiar with that Okay, I have done this myself. Uh, it's Oh and you're you've Fire casina has come into your awareness lately, hasn't it? Yes, it's not something that I'm currently practicing right now But it is something that I have practice in the past and will continue to practice in the future Uh, now have you been to daniel ingrams fire casina dot org site? Yeah, that's where I learned of it Okay, um, so then you've probably heard enough trip reports from those casina things and heard daniel talk about it on podcast and things To know and I'm just going to restate this for the audience or to ask it You know, how much this you're aware of but like the longer you spend, you know up over of you know 16 or so hours a day of this casina for meditative practice you start to very, you know, uh deeply move into genic realms and Inform and things can get really things become trippy and there it's not just trippy You put something in your mouth you wait for it to start metabolizing and then you're tripping for six to eight hours But you're basically in like an all-day long trip For every day that you continue to stay there and it gets deeper and weirder the longer you're there Right Right, so dark retreat functionally is very similar to that. Um, you're you're in You're in a light deprived environment for Uh, for me the longest I've been able to do it was for like eight and a half days and around Day six or day seven was the point where like, uh The the entire spine Kind of super charged with in and but you have to Uh, at least in my case you have to make sure that The cundalini the charge of like sexual energy Is strong within the body so that once the pineal gland goes to like bridge the entire spine That this that you know like an equal force of fluid is able to flow From both the upper house to the lower house. Otherwise you run the risk, you know Metaphorically, I did this a second time and I kind of damaged my nervous system Because I was trying to run a two-stroke engine with no oil in the fuel Uh Yeah, not recommended But if properly then it's really fascinating and Because it's an entirely endogenous DMT. So what happens is in in a darker treat because you're light deprived so your Pineal gland that produces melatonin After a few days, it super saturates and then it starts to up regulate up until the point where it starts releasing five MEO and standard DMT, but it's doing it at such an incredibly Small dose because it's entirely endogenous That you know where you were talking about like DMT coming on really fast and possibly doing that because You metabolized it too quickly or whatever with this. It's it's a steady drip That's at a low enough dose that you can Your mind will start showing you things about how trips work That you never could have caught before because it was coming on entirely too quickly Right and and and and then to do You know, yeah, and and then Whether it be by way of fire casina deep genre stability or you know, uh, some other type of trick to Kick trip to means down your down your spinal cord, but Yeah, I don't know. That's just what was coming to mind for me because it would be fascinating if you were in that that kind of you know, like deep meditative practice state where your body chemistry is just running Day in and day out to then you know, imagine if you could put Imagine if you could grab a teapot full of Feynman type brains And then put them, you know into the second week of a fire casina or a darker cheap trip And so you just just just just how much of reality they could come to understand Well, what so a couple things that it's a number one. I I love this thread of thought because It ties this comes back to that perennialism comment. I made earlier, right where it ties into certain undercurrents of What's going on with conscious awareness that is just very curious to me And you're like you kind of mentioned psychedelic compounds Uh, basically force you into this mental state and the difference with these meditative practices is that it's it's the long hard road of cultivating concentration That people don't like because it's hard and it's something that as someone with ADHD tendencies, uh, it's something that's blocked but it's something that I've certainly improved upon as I've Practice these more. I mean like Like when I sit down to meditate, especially if I've been lax with it Like the first five ten minutes is just my eyelids just fluttering rapidly Because it's like my eyes are or my brain's sending out these signals like what are you doing? I want to see what's out there And uh, but once they get past like the ten minute mark then it's you you very noticeably see Oh, it's settled down and then I'm kind of now into a groove Um, it's so the cultivation of concentration is something that's Uh, profoundly interesting to me because In particular as I've kind of mentioned a couple times throughout this it it really allows you to I don't want to put this uh interact in a state of mind that is Uh, very much non-verbal uh and kind of pre-language Um, and I don't know if you want to call it though, but it's very much different from what we're used to And being able to explore that level of awareness without, you know, having to deal with compounds And being able to explore at will for as long as you want Is just about as far as you can get that comes to consciousness Yeah, I I think uh symbolic to get to that kind of proto-linguistic state that you're talking about If that's if symbolic would be the word you would use for it or not I I think I I think I like that because it's It seems that that's got to be the substrate of awareness at that point right because it's still The way to think of it is it's still comprehensible And if that's true Then it has to be in some sense symbolic Right. I mean there's symbolic there's conceptual. I don't know If the distinction between Symbolic and conceptual You know, which of those which of those feels like it fits better for you Yeah, I mean this also goes back to Wittgenstein and the use of language just in general But to me in some sense You know conceptual is just built on top as a higher level of complexity above symbolic Um, but perhaps other people would disagree with me, but so like a symbol is uh to Uh The concept as an atom is to a molecule Yeah, I'd say that's probably right. I mean the symbols I would think of as the building blocks They're they're essentially I would imagine that they are what allow you to instantiate a form in some sense So and the combination of you know any number of symbols would allow you to Complexify up to the degree that you're able to Yeah, um Are there any other casinos that you have felt Particularly drawn to or interested in I for one I haven't spent the money on it And it's not a lot of money. I've just I've got a lot going on in my life right now I'm interested in buying myself a A small round aquarium bowl Almost like a you know, like a fishbowl or a vase or something that I could yeah Fill with water and use as my object for a water casino meditation Ah, okay So you fill it with water and then do like get it to move or is it you just look at the water? You just look at the water Yeah, you just you just sit in front of it and uh, and if you if you're using a word you just keep using the word water Yeah, um, well I guess it's somewhat similar. Uh, so I've I've used fire or primarily candle Um, but then I've also used a What the heck are they called the little uh, like plasma globes that you can put your hands on and it'll kind of attach to your fingers Oh, okay. Yeah, so I I've done that partially with casino and then partially with just dmt as well and it's uh, Unusual, but it's interesting What uh, how would you describe that? So the the last time I did that, um I'm trying to remember enough because I would have been over the summer. Um, but it was You know I was sitting in my basement and I just had it running on the table in front of me And I think I had my like a hoodie on and I had my hood up So like I had my awareness very much kind of trained on this um in a very constrained manner and It was like when I came up on the dmt all of a sudden I was like in a room We're just like only thing that was in my awareness was this object and it was You know again when it's it's hard when it's kind of more in the symbolic space to then transfer back the language but for like from what I remember it was kind of You know a very unusual state of like connectedness where it was um kind of bouncing around from one side to the next and um You know somewhat difficult to center my awareness because you know those little globes are kind of going all over Where the field lines are going or where the kind of magnetic plasma arcs are going And uh, so I'd only been able to do it that one time so But one thing I did notice that when I would kind of move my head back and forth a little bit um The screen of awareness I guess as I would put it would kind of almost like a bubble kind of Bend and retract a little bit So it's like kind of when I move my head back would move forward a little bit and then I come forward and snap back So there was like this pliability to the substrate of awareness that was Uh much more noticeable in that state So I don't know if that was specifically attributable to the plasma globe, but Um, but at least that's when I first kind of noticed that awareness and that's something that uh, I had discussed with Andres uh at one point um on twitter and uh Because there's this is just great picture or illustration Where it has like this background of like stars and just this really interesting There's like this mask and then there's these eyes behind the mask that are just in the background And I was like that's exactly what it felt like Whatever that is Yeah Yeah, I I mean what what comes to mind for me right now is um Metacognition and maybe like some kind of meta observational layer that you're describing Yeah, yeah Yeah, it's like uh You know watching the watcher like you're starting to Pick up on the machinery under the scenes Which is right, which is something that I think is really fun watchers. Yeah Yeah And then you go, well, who's watching the watcher watching the watch? It's turtles all the way down Right, exactly, which comes back to john vervecki and his idea that Do you have this threat of intelligibility yet? You will never see the end of it Okay, so I don't know if this speaks to all of that or not but connecting into a point we were talking about earlier with um Shape rotation and hyper dimensionality But you know to my mind one of the things I was trying to Pen together when I told you I was thinking about this stuff during the summertime is okay, so in um The the world of physics right now There's this whole conversation around Dark matter that there's more gravity in the universe than we can account for by the things that we can observe with our Telescopes and whatnot and in my mind is like, okay. Well, maybe that's uh, you know, maybe everything that we can see You know Is in our three dimensional shape space But then all the stuff that we can't observe and yet have to account for Is where our shape space connects with this other shape space? That's just outside of our realm of comprehension right Is um Well, so well a couple things number one What you've described for dark matter is essentially accurate, right? Like the there are gravitational effects That occur within galaxies and galactic clusters That the observable matter is unable to explain Primarily things like rotation speed and stuff like that, right? So there's clearly something happening that we don't understand Um, and then of course when we start to go to higher dimensional objects Then we especially start to get out of our understanding because we're kind of You know, we don't really know how to think about that that well because it's so different than our current reality but I think what I what I'm hearing you say is something that um In a lot of ways reminds me of some of the things that I've been thinking about, um, so As far as we understand there's you know, two up to this date three generations of stars, right? So population three stars were stars that were essentially entirely made up of um hydrogen helium And they were like the powers that you could have and those were also like the most enormous stars that existed because You know at least from our understanding of the big bang, you know, matter more closely packed together And so you had these So Because This is a hypernote all the processes and they went down to population two stars Which were less pure and then population three stars which or population one star believe Is Um Of you know generations of stars that are you know lower level of purity Um, and so not that the lower level of purity is bad. It's just different Um, and obviously those earlier generations of stars had to happen For us to exist at all because they produce the Take up the carbon and oxygen and iron and all these things and so But what's interesting is that these earliest stars were supremely huge really really large Um, they've been being kind of smaller and smaller and more classified as you've gone through these kind of fusion stages and one of the things I've kind of thought of is you know If in If you're going in kind of higher dimensional objects Um, you might start from one thing that's really really big at the kind of lowest base level and then as you go up the chain of um hyperdimensional stages You might get kind of smaller and smaller and smaller and then you might get to the floor at Like the level of a proton or an electron, right? So you've kind of got the absolute biggest and they are inextricably linked um and so And then spacetime is essentially everything that's kind of in between those two stages, right? It's a result of the relational Uh connections that arise as a process Um, I'm not saying that's absolutely true, but the thing that might be true based on some of the things that we're starting to learn and so if that were the case And we imagine that okay when I look out into the stars and I see Uh a universe that is mostly black a mostly void and yet there are these Galaxy these solar systems these galaxies um, and then these galaxies inside uh super clusters of galaxies um that all seem to have a cohesive structure to them and to me that's embedded in something right and so there's this you know concept in computer science with really just image processing right where you kind of take a binary where the blacker is this white gray And then if we just imagine that we took a reverse contrast universe and say okay instead of looking at all the matter that we can see What's it right? What's what's in the void and then imagine that the void itself in some sense is a substrate um that's kind of on the other side of of what we call spacetime and In a higher dimensional way like we can't see it, but it's having forces that impact what we then experience so It doesn't seem like It'd be that far fetched to be headed that way Whether or not that turns out to be the case who knows but having I mean it's not unheard of I mean it's basically the electromagnetic field right we've had this happening before where there are invisible forces That interact with everything around us yet. We don't see them So Whether that's dark matter That describes dark matter or not. I wouldn't be surprised if it does But it's like Being on the other side of a partition that as far as our technology is concerned right now. We can't access but We certainly might be able to in the future This makes me think of a point where we were earlier in the conversation when I was thinking of us as earthlings as part of cell and if that cell is I don't know if that cell exists like in the brain But there's a whole world going down the spinal cord that the cell inside the brain Doesn't know anything about because it doesn't have the capacity to move there But it doesn't function independently of those other cells in those other spaces right Which is similar to you know, you know, if you think of like global climate right like there are um, you know Winds and jet streams and things like that that occur on different planet that yet still Impact other parts of the planet that are thousands of miles away because of their basically externalities Yeah, um, you know, whether it's something like that I I could totally buy that You know, I kind of like to think of it almost like a black hole where You know if you think of the supermassive black holes that are at the center of galaxies, right unbelievably enormous objects they account for It's under 1 but I think it's right around maybe a half of 1 of the total matter in the galaxy, right? So it's it's not enough to just you know get rid of dark matter, but it's it's quite a lot of matter And you know when we look at it we say well, okay as far as we understand now black hole Nothing comes out of it. We can't see it, but it's really All the same sort of matter that would have previously been in a star Isn't still in that same localized space as far as we understand it, but is now Behind the partition, right? So it's like it's on the other side and so what if what if okay, so what if a black hole is the vertice point of a hyperdimensional bridge along geometric lines Yeah, that's that's basically what I'm getting at right where it's like the it's the initial vertice Almost like an organismic Vertice for the original of our galaxy that everything from our galaxy Is again like the fundamental frequency of earth, right that everything in our galaxy is organizing around And So it seems unlikely that we should think of each of the stars in our galaxy as some It's likely that they all are entangled with each other as a result of being tied back to the massive black hole at the center of our galaxy And that there's some organized. I mean, there's clearly some organizing principle happening because we're we live in a spiral galaxy That has all this rotation that's happening and everything's kind of moving in concert with each other It's not perfectly in concert, but it's enough in construction Just like there's enough structure in the earth's electromagnetic field that Unsurprisingly biology organizes around that so primordial signal that The suns themselves are organizing around Would be very interesting, right? And if it's like if you think of okay, we've got this huge black hole And that's kind of acting like this almost like this vortice of energy Because I actually like think of a black hole, especially the ones at the center of the galaxy as almost like being a dynamo Where it's basically along this filament that connects it with this intergalactic threads of these galactic clusters And it's moving along this filament And it's it's essentially energizing the entire galaxy as needed, right? So the dynamo might come on and off Which is what we actually see with quasars and quasars are just When a galactic uh intergalactic supermassive black hole essentially starts the spew jets of hydrogen Into the surrounding area of the galaxy Um, so those quasars can turn on in the past We thought that no you would have a certain amount of matter that surrounds the black hole and as it burned it up Then the quasar would be done But it's been recently observed with them perhaps in the last 10 years or so maybe the last 20 That no the quasars actually turn off and on Um, we don't know why so what i'm what i'm thinking of right now is so these dynamos as being toroidal in nature And that these on and off, you know, and here i'm just jumping straight into the Into the the Vedas if you want that the on and off is like the the waking and sleeping moments of of of a god like uh Brahma or something and that the emission of these Fundamental particles are the creation of Known space as it were Which i really i really like the structure of that narrative you've placed because You know to me when i think of it i almost think of these black these Supermassive black holes as like like many big bangs that are like in a fractal like nature replicating what we perceived to have happened 14 billion years ago. Yeah, well and well are you I imagine as as smart as you are you're probably aware of the Oh god, his name evades me in the moment, uh the british Uh, oh roger pendros kim. Yeah, it's like a cosmology. Yeah. Yes. So So, uh, uh, chemical cyclic cosmology is i i think what you're referencing, right? Yes. Yes So so just quick refresher on what he's saying there he's saying that Steve to be as The big bang number one is not the creation of the universe entirely just what we have as an observable the universe And that it's a front, right? Yes. Yes. It's it's like rina has been What he perceives that has happened is that there's an event that basically has this arena explode in size And then filled with matter And when that when that arena has been sufficiently exhausted in terms of its capacity You no longer have the ability to differentiate Basically the elements that make up space time you have no way to measure anything Which then I think what you're saying is that you get this Frame flip where everything crunches back down and it starts the process over And then that might be happening infinitely many times all over this arena this, you know bigger arena Which wouldn't surprise me and which sounds a lot like Um some of these indian traditions Yeah, and in a very fractal like way our galaxies are probably Uh reenacting that on a different scale Yeah, what do you think about that? I I like that. I mean it it seems unlikely to me that That there was just a big bang that created the universe and then like that's it like that's the story because Because then you just you've got still the same problem will will why why did that universe come into place and it's much easier to me that the kind of eternal cosmology of the universe has always been and always will be and the elements of creation just like with Biological organisms that have a birth a growth and development a peak and a Decline and death, right? I mean you can even just ignore biology and just go to the structure of narrative itself And say that anything that takes place takes place in that framework um and can be applied to basically again infinite arenas um and from the psychedelic experiences that I had that seems to be More likely to be true and that There's this unbelievable scope of possibility infinite possibility and when you try to really grasp infinite You think you get it, but no you don't get to get it because if you did your brain would turn into a black hole, so Right, right, right. Yeah, um God I was I was gonna go somewhere next, but I've forgotten where But that's what happens right when when your conversation has fully gone on the hero's journey, which I think ours is just about done um Yeah, I don't know you just kind of wind up back where you started in a way, but but with something you didn't have before well, and I think perhaps a good way to finish it out as well and I Talk with somebody on twitter about this the other day where it's like Christian in my opinion Christianity May have not existed at all or certainly wouldn't exist in the state that it does currently if jesus had not died on the cross Yeah, yeah, no, absolutely. I mean it's certain that it would not exist in the way that it does had that not happened um I mean now that's a topic we could we could we could talk about for quite a while um What do you what do you think about that? well, I think from From purely a narrative perspective right ignoring any veracity to the claims that's certainly the more interesting story to tell And for any story that's worth telling you need to have Conflict you need to have a climax you need an end that leaves you thinking what what other stories are out there and I think the story of christ is a framework for how to tell meaningful stories that are inclusive And allow you to build higher levels of complexity through cooperation, which is maybe a very scientific way to write the story of christ, but I think from a secular point of view there are Many many ways to take that story and get a ton of meaning out of it just in terms of hey When we treat each other as humans and we we love each other in a way that isn't superficial um There's a lot that's worth that that provides us meaning and provides us uh You know love and fulfillment and things that are worthwhile that make existence worth existing Right Yeah, I mean The fact of reality as I know it to be true Is that I just keep waking up every morning Right, but but but the blessing of it is is that when I wake up in the morning I have a dog to go on a walk with and I have people that I see whether I'm at work or at school or On twitter or what not that I get to interact with and hopefully I get to do so in a way that That generates good feelings for me and good feelings for them and and really helps us all Um Yeah to do the thing to dance to dance to live the life together that we that we want to that we want to live Yeah, totally agree. I mean by uh, my wife's grandmother is in um, she's in a nursing home now and I think this kind of Perhaps a good way to end it is that you know, we we in the u.s. Especially have a very poor relationship with death Where we think in some sense it's shameful to die and we're We're it's a very sad and tragic event and we try to keep people alive and resuscitate them again and again We we drain their lungs of fluid and we extend we don't extend their life. We extend their suffering and instead of having a A celebration of a life well lived and a well-deserved rest we have Uh, hey it popped a propped up corpse of what that is and basically the most shameful version of of What we're so afraid of which is living um and and life is something that should be celebrated lived and and then exchanged for in my opinion a well-earned rest and then pass the torch Let other people tell stories that you are excited for them to tell and let us die with dignity and I think that's what people want in a lot of ways, but we have a lot of fear around that well Man you're just you're starting conversations that could go on entirely too long So at some point we'll have to talk about dying with dignity We'll have to talk about the life of christ and in a few weeks maybe After you've gone through all of the processes necessary. We could talk a little bit more about The ineffability of advanced shape rotations That sounds like a good plan Well, I want to thank you so much for the time that we have shared together today Uh, I noticed a couple of people popped in and out while we were having the conversation at earlier points And I I hope that you've enjoyed this as well Yeah, absolutely. I am grateful to be here and to interact with you I hope I didn't didn't even occur to me that other people would be listening So I hope other people were able to get something worthwhile out of it

Hey, Leah, how's it going? Hey, Luke. I'm great. How are you? I'm doing well. I'm excited to have this chat with you today. Yeah, me too, especially after I listened to your conversation with Daniel Brotman about the three-month meditation retreat, I thought it was just an excellent conversation that you two had. So that's made me really excited about connecting with you today. Thanks. Yeah, I'm really lucky that, you know, I feel like for you and for me and a bunch of people, sometime around the time of the Twitter buyout, just a lot of people started being a lot more active. I don't necessarily, you know, ascribe it to Elon or anything, but you met me and I met you and I met Daniel and he went off on his retreat and you guys have been talking as well, right? Yeah, we have and it's a funny story. I came across his profile when I was at a Graf Institute holotropic breathwork retreat in September and he was posting about going on this retreat at IMS and how he was leaving imminently and I can see myself, it was that Saturday night, so I'm still kind of riding the high of this like three hour holotropic session and all this integration work and I reached out to him in DM to just be like, one, I think we should really talk because I think we're kind of walking similar paths and I'd love to connect with you and hear about your story, but two, it really sucks because I'm at a retreat right now and by the time I get back, you're going to be going at a three month retreat. So let's touch base on the flip side and I thought of him pretty frequently through that three months, particularly because I attended my first meditation retreat at the Barry Center for Buddhist studies. He was at IMS, which is like the sister institution, they connect to each other, they sit right next to each other in Massachusetts and when I was at BCPS, I remember thinking like, oh, yeah, like that guy from Twitter happens to be doing a three month thing like 800 feet away from where I'm sleeping. That's really cool. That is cool. I think it was actually when you were sharing about your holotropic breath retreat experience that was, I think one of the first times when I interacted with you on Twitter as well. Yeah, I think so. And like one of the things I found is that I was just talking with Rob Hardy about this on gated creative, right? Like I was never active on Twitter until like July of this year. And all of a sudden I have all these friends. It's really cool. But one of the things I've realized is that I've always done really weird stuff, but I never really spoke about it publicly because when you're super weird, you're kind of ashamed of being so weird. But the cool thing about the internet is when you're into weird stuff and you talk about it, you connect with other people that are into weird stuff. And, you know, I found that being really open about the experiences and positions and institutions I find myself in, in turn, connects me to people that have either similar interest or curiosity or just a profoundly generous approach to human experience. So I'm delighted that we connected over the holotropic retreat because it's definitely under the umbrella of things. Historically, I would have never talked about publicly, but now I feel much more emboldened to do so based on the kind of feedback and social relationships these conversations bring. Yeah. So last night I asked you what we wanted to talk about in our conversation. And you mentioned meditation and grief and healing and psychedelics and ufology and powerlifting. And so I want to bring with the with the with the breath work thing. I want to I want to bring that together. I'm going to share a little bit, if it's OK, about my experience. The first I don't I've been to a couple of holotropic breath workshops. Well, the first one wasn't actually holotropic. It was something close to holotropic. It's like a Canadian system that I can't think of the name of quite. Right. Yeah. The graphs trademarked the word holotropic. So like you'll hear psychedelic breath work or, you know, continuous conscious breathing or whatever. But it's kind of the same thing. So the one that I did was it was like just an afternoon experience. It was in it was at this like yoga retreat center on Salt Spring Island up in British Columbia. And when I went through that afternoon, man, you know, at the end of it in the in the circle, everybody was talking about their experiences. And one guy was like flying on the back of a dragon and all of this stuff. And for me, literally, I was the guy who just like felt shameful afterwards because I was just screaming and like beating my fists and feet on the ground. Just like mountains of just grief and agony were just dumping out of me as I was going through that breathwork experience. And so I don't know what yours was like, but for me, my first real deep breathwork experience was honestly, something I felt bad about exposing other people to. I I love sharing or I love you sharing this story. And I'd love to talk just a little bit about my experience at this retreat. Yeah, because it will largely corroborate what what you just shared. So I went to a Graf Institute retreat, which are typically weekend retreats in their most compact form. And it's in a way, it's almost like being in an inpatient psychiatric program because it's this really regimented schedule with all these like integrated therapeutic methods that you use on top of the holotropic breathwork. So you do like nature therapy and art therapy and sound healing and a sharing circle, which is effectively like an integration circle like you'd find in any kind of psychedelic space. And I it was very interesting. The facilitators, first of all, the facilitators were absolutely phenomenal. We had a naturopath and a PhD psychologist, both facilitating both who'd been facilitating these retreats, I think, for upwards of almost 20 years. And it was a very small cohort. I think there were nine other people in the group. And it's interesting because the first session, you can tell like everybody's still pretty buttoned up. Everybody was very well behaved, right? Like they were doing their breathing and maybe there was a little bit of noise. But you know, you're listening to this really loud drum music and you know, you're on the floor with your pillows and your blanket and your eye mask and just so focused on yourself and also the kind of overlay of almost self-consciousness, right? Because it's all our first time. We don't quite know what's going on. And then you contrast it with like the last session that we had that weekend and like all hell broke loose like six minutes into it. Like people were screaming, they were sobbing, they were moving around. It was this incredibly like it was this actually like very candidly. It was this incredibly powerful and moving experience to witness and participate in not just as a breather, but even just to be a sitter and sit with people through their own journeys in their own sessions. I found that to be truly like a sacred act to be present and witness people's own participation. And it was interesting because the, you know, and I'm in this retreat and I'm there because I had to take a year off. I was in an abusive relationship. I left the relationship in June and was absolutely devastated by it. Like just my mental health and emotional well-being was in a place it had never been before. I was just, I can't overstate the amount of like grief and trauma that was saturating my life. And like that's when I got serious. I was like, I'm doing anything it takes to heal and feel better and move on from this, which is how I wound up at a breathwork retreat. But like my sessions were like extremely ego dissociative, ego dissolving, definitely psychedelic in nature, like definitely expansive. But I had my sessions were totally pleasant. Like puppies and kittens and rainbows and fluffy and really nice. And like I remember thinking after the facilitator came around because they would check in with you after the sessions to see how you're doing, like how are your emotions? Do you feel stable? And they'd come talk to me and I'd be like, I feel great. Like I feel amazing. And I can remember distinctly thinking to myself, like I feel like the walking, I feel like the war wounded. Like I feel like a civil war soldier who's like head is bandaged up and their arms blown off emotionally. Like I am just in total shambles, but these experiences were just so profoundly positive and moving for me. And then I was surrounded by tons of people that are having these very intense, you know, grief experiences and rage and anger. It was quite a juxtaposition. And it also struck me too, that like as an adult working a very kind of conventional knowledge workers job, there's virtually zero space in my life to be around other people experiencing strong emotions. And that was something else that I found really kind of healing and insightful and powerful about that time, was that I was around other people that were emotionally vulnerable and open in ways that you don't counter sort of in your standard white collar job. And you sort of realized just how valuable that kind of communal experience is towards healing and learning and growth and recovery. So did you wind up at any point, like on the last day you said, like when everything kind of came broke loose in the first six minutes? Did you ever have like a big grief release or anger experience? No, and I can't believe it. I was so ready, man. I was like, I am ready to cry myself sick. Like I like didn't wear any makeup that weekend. I have like my cough drops and my eye mask and my Kleenex. And I was like, I am going to cry it out and it's going to be so cathartic and like so amazing. And I just had this like really blissful, like pleasant transcendent experience. Like there wasn't any of this grief or anger or trauma. And in hindsight, like when I think about how I kind of metabolize that experience, I'm like, man, like maybe I'm really not as screwed up as I thought. Maybe like my grief and trauma and pain after being with this harmful person, like maybe that's just a very normal human response. And there's actually nothing in me that needs to be fixed. I just need to kind of heal. Like I just need to give myself time and space to just kind of re-explore my values and who I am rather than thinking that there's anything inside me that actually needs to be fixed. So it kind of like reconfigured, I think my approach about how I understood and pursued my own kind of path back to myself. Wow. Well, good for you. Yes. I mean, you know, I don't know you very well. I saw right before you went on your last retreat, you shared a lot of things about yourself and your life and everything. And to me, just reading it, I'm like, wow. Here's a person who has just lived an amazing life and a successful life and must have had some really strong support from your family and stuff. And maybe you just didn't get as dadly damaged, as badly damaged as some of us did by the upbringings and emotional failings that we experienced in our childhoods. Yeah, man. It's like that Philip Larkin poem. Like they fuck you up your mom and dad. They may not mean to, but they do. They fill you up with what they had and then some extra just for you. I think everybody has that story, right? Everybody has that story of like, yeah, my parents fucked me up and this is how they did it and isn't that something? But I definitely, I think like anyone else, carry those scars and griefs from adolescence and childhood. But what I will say to my parents' credit, and I think this is a behavior of theirs that has cascaded and propagated through every dimension of my life, my parents, I admire a couple of things about them immensely because I've realized how in short supply it is in the real world. The first is my parents are people of incredible integrity. Like I have watched my parents do things in their own lives, in their careers, in their personal lives that echo an exacting high standard of integrity, even when it costs them something. I don't mean just financially, but like even at great personal cost, they have extremely high standards of integrity in terms of always doing the right thing. And as anyone with kids knows, like your kids learn by example, not by what you tell them. So like that example was set for me extremely, extremely high. And that's something I still like, anyone who follows me sees that I harp on this constantly. But the other thing about my parents is I'm very much the black sheep. Like everybody else is married and has kids and settled down. And like I'm the one who's tattooed from head to toe and backpacked to Europe and like doesn't have a boyfriend and you know, had a motorcycle and all that. And I have these absolutely lovely, very normie parents that just think I'm just the greatest thing since sliced bread. So like when I came home from my breathwork retreat, my mom totally thought I was at like a yoga retreat or a meditation retreat. And it was just this really calm relaxing thing. And I was like, oh no, it's psychedelic. Like it's really far out. As soon as I've grafted it, he did all the LSD therapy. And my mom was like, I'm so glad you found it so healing. This makes me so happy, right? Like I have these totally normie parents that just take it all in stride and just think it's all awesome. And you know, and I think that that's like, I think the best way anyone shows support for another human being is by accepting them as they are, right? And like my parents are like a masterclass in accepting me as I am, despite being like kind of just of a very different breed than the rest of the family. I mean, I think it's great because, you know, like I guess the contrast between being the normie and checking the boxes and having the family and doing all of those things. That's my brother. Yeah, I mean, that's cool. But it's also, you know, like doing the other stuff, backpacking Europe and having these wild adventures. Like that's also really cool. And, you know, you look at the world at large and like, yeah, you're going and having a family and doing all, that's something anybody could do. But being adventurous and just putting it out there and, you know, just like living life, like this is the only one you've got. You know, I mean, it takes bravery and, you know, just like a willingness to kind of, you know, dam the expectations and just, you know, live life in the moment to the fullest. Yeah, and it's also having, I think, a very strong internal sense of what really matters to you and what matters to you because you've been told it should matter to you. You know, and I mean, I think the other thing, too, is like, on the other hand, I've had this like extremely privileged normie lifestyle, right, like I went to college, I went to graduate school. And I mean, I'm pretty sure by the time I finished grad school and like, I hadn't had a kid and like hadn't had to deal with any major stuff, I'm pretty sure my parents are just like, okay, cool. Like, we're at the gate, like we got through college and graduate school, like at a certain point, like sort of, I don't know, like sort of like something huge, like my capacity to like truly fuck up my life was much more limited now than it was when I was like maybe 17 running around doing stuff, you know. Right. Yeah. I mean, absolutely. You've got, I mean, at that point, especially, you know, finishing, finishing college, finishing grad school, you've got a foundation exactly like no matter how far you fall, you're on high ground. Right. And so it's, and I think the other thing too is I've always joked that getting my tattoos and I'm extremely heavily tattooed. Like I never think I'm heavily tattooed, but then I meet people and they're like, whoa, you have a lot of tattoos, you know, like, oh, well, I don't know, like my one leg is blank and like my one half of forearm is blank. It's not that many. But you don't have any, you don't have any tattoos that I can see on your face. Right. I can, I can wear, if I wear a pantsuit with long sleeves, nobody would ever know I have a tattoo. So it's totally fine. But I bring this up because at one point I kind of had the internal agreement with myself that it's totally fine if I kind of broke and obviously tattoos much more well accepted now than they ever have been. Oh yeah. But I had this kind of internal bargain with myself that if I was going to live an integrated life, if I was going to wear metallic shirts to work and be tattooed down to my wrists and, you know, be this crazy knowledge worker and run a business, I was going to be the best I could conceivably be at my profession because when you're really, really good at what you do professionally, people will look the other way on a whole lot of stuff. And I can, I spoke at a conference over the summer and I wore like a shirt with my sleeves rolled up and had a bunch of clients of mine shake out of that conference. They heard me speak. They wanted to work with me. Like they met my market rate. It was awesome. And I just remember thinking like the way I can live a life that is true to myself is to also understand that I have to make the faustian bargain of playing a game, this corporate game, this professional game that I don't particularly like. I don't think anyone really likes it. But if I play it really, really well, it gives me a degree of spaciousness in the rest of my life that I will be so thankful for. And that's, you know, that's how I wound up in tech after being a rare book librarian. That's how I've wound up consulting after working as a full-time employee for a few years. Just understanding that if I doggedly dedicate myself to a very kind of normie conventional standard of success in every other area of my life, I could do pretty much whatever I wanted and nobody really cared. It's great. Yeah. I mean, you know, what I know about you does not fall under the category of normie. And, you know, and I want to get into the topics around like ufology and psychedelics and that kind of stuff. But before we go there, before we go there, let's talk about powerlifting. Dude, let's talk about powerlifting. Let's talk about powerlifting. I am not a powerlifter. When did you get into powerlifting? Oh, man. So I got into powerlifting. I got into powerlifting in 2012, 2011, 2012. I was, of all things, I got mono when I was like 24, 25, and I had to leave graduate school for a year because I had mono and strep, which like who the fuck gets mono in their 20s, right? Although all the normie kids got it when they were 15, but I'm a late bloomer, I guess. And I needed something to kind of keep me sane as I was living at home with my parents and like was feeling better, but it was between semesters. So I couldn't go back to grad school. And I was like, if I have to spend one more night at my parents' house, like, you know, watching the Mets or whatever, I'm going to go nuts. So I found this website called Photocracy. And it was basically like a social media slash weightlifting site and you would lift weights and then you would get points assigned to it and level up. It was like an early gamification platform. And my brother had, my brother is much more of a classically disciplined person than I am. My brother did like amateur bodybuilding in college and like even at my strongest and most fit, like dude, I still look like someone who really likes tacos and beer. Like I'm never going to be like, I am a Clydesdale. I am not a thoroughbred. And I was like, I'm just going to start lifting weights. I'm broke, right? I'm a grad student. I'm making eight grand a year. You don't need any money. All I needed was a gym membership. I've always been in like, I played ice hockey growing up as ROTC in college. I've always been in these like super male dominated environments intellectually and physically. And I started lifting and I was really, really good at it. Like really good at it. One of the New York Giants who trains right near where I was living at the time, he came up to me in the gym and was like, I've never seen someone squat the way you squat. Like your squat is just amazing. And I remember thinking like, wow, there's kind of something here. This is really fun. I'm building this community of fitness people, right? Like Frank Yang, who everybody knows now is like Fulnati Arhat, is like this Buddhist and meditation guy. I knew him back when he was like a fitness guy and like a weightlifter 10 years ago. Like, and this was kind of the first online community I was in. And I was very serious, very dedicated, semi-pro in my 20s. And there is, I would say that powerlifting is definitely not a thinking man's sport. You just pick stuff up and put it down, which as someone who's prone to thinking way too much was awesome. And I appreciated in hindsight, I understand my participation in that sport as being foundational to building a sense of patience and consistent dedication to something. And I also have lots of stories about it. Like I have stories about guys offering me cash to beat them up because like there's a whole microcosm of dudes that are really into that stuff and unsurprisingly, they're all freaking cops or military guys, like to the last one. Like offering me money to beat them up. I never was that hard up. I never took them up on this. Not even just for the kicks of it? Not even just for the literal kicks. And I think the other thing too is when you, look, when you're in the prime of your life, like Murakami has this awesome essay that he wrote about being a runner and he talks about how your relationship with fitness changes as you get older. Like I'm 36, it's conceivable a one day in the next maybe seven years be as strong as I was in my mid-20s. Like I'm talking at a 225 bench for a five deadlift, 375 squat, all unbelted, unwrapped, no equipment, no nothing. Like this is just in like leggings in a t-shirt or a onesie if I'm competing. But your entire relationship with your body and physical activity kind of refactors when you start realizing that like, hey, like my physical prime is now behind me. What does it look like to maintain this kind of partnership and relationship with my body in a way that allows it to continue to grow and strengthen in new and interesting ways? So I lifted through my late 20s. A major reason I pretty much stopped, I was never injured. I'm super lucky I was never injured. Yeah. But I started making enough money that I could make my fitness life about other things. I could make it about skiing or mountaineering or climbing or hiking and backpacking, which was really at this point in my life where my heart truly lies. Like I did a huge backpacking trip in 2019 and spent probably almost three weeks in Death Valley, Kings Canyon, Sequoia National Park, and finished with a week in the Yosemite Bout Country and climbed Taftome. And I've had this, I'm supposed to be doing a glacier and mountaineering clinic on Shasta. It was supposed to be in 2020, which has been postponed a handful of times due to COVID and I'm hoping this will be the year. But that said, I got to get my ass on a stair mill if I'm going to be ready for that because as a flatlander living like only a little above sea level right now, if I'm going to do Mount Shasta, like I need to actually get ready for it and take it seriously. But yeah, powerlifting. It's a very good sport. And it's also too, I think for women, is extremely powerful in terms of how it changes your relationship with your body and understanding what your body can actually do and how it can recover and be very, very strong. I think it comparts a sense of mental strength and emotional strength as well through this practice. Yeah, I mean, it makes me think of how, with meditation, with a lot of types of meditation, you want to be aware of your body and what's a greater way to be aware of your body than to really use it, getting jacked and powerlifting doing physical exercise. Yeah, and it's like meditation too, in the sense that you're deliberately exposing yourself to a very intense, challenging experience but in a very controlled container. And the more you repeatedly expose yourself to those stresses, then when you're not in this container, you're much more well-suited to be able to navigate the surprise stresses. Meditating, the important parts of meditation happen when you're off the cushion. Just like, powerlifting is really fun, but the really cool stuff happens when your friend's moving a refrigerator and you can be like, yeah, sure, just strap it to my back or whatever. Or you watch everybody else your age have back problems or physical problems and you're like, yeah, my back never bothers me. I don't have any of these physical problems because you're prioritizing all this. You did, and I mean, maybe it's not entirely luck. I'm sure a lot of it had to do with the excellent form that you had and your holistic way of dealing with life in general. But I remember when I was in the military, I was in training and there was this guy who was, he was jacked to the nine. Yeah, he was a big boy. And then one day he's just reached over the Humvee to pluck a leaf off of the windshield or something, pulled his back out. And then I didn't see him for two weeks and he looked like he'd lost 40 pounds of muscle. Yep. Yeah, the only time I've thrown my back out ever, ever was leaning into my friend's camera to grab my sunglasses off the dashboard. Exactly. It wasn't gross, you're proud. It was like grabbing my sunglasses and going, oh my God, I can't stand up. Right. This is awful. I mean, I guess maybe that's something that just happens to power lifters where just like some tiny little forward stretch and then all of a sudden... Yeah, and back stuff too, right? Like if you mess up one thing in your back, I feel like it just propagates through your entire body. Like it just takes one little muscle to go out of whack. When you backpack Europe, how much backpacking were you doing? How far did you go? Yeah, so I'm using it, I think in the very colloquial term of backpacking, like I was living out of a backpack, but not like in nature. I was in hostels and stuff. My most recent backpacking trip around Europe was some time in Norway a couple of years ago. So I did like Voss and Oslo and Bergen. I took like a big rail tour all over Europe or all over Norway. But I spent about six weeks. So I studied at the Prague Geophysical Institute and at Universitat Karlova, Charles University in Prague some years back. And I took about, I think almost probably six weeks and backpacked through the former Yugoslavia. Like I backpacked Serbia, Bosnia, Herzegovina, Croatia, Hungary, and Slovakia. And a bit of time in Austria and France as well. But this was obviously a deeply, deeply formative experience for me, right, because it was young and impressionable. And also I was like, everybody else is going to Germany and Italy. I'm going to go to like Bosnia because the only thing I'd heard about Bosnia was in the news when I was in like second grade. And in Serbia. And was so enraptured with this area of the world. It actually prompted me to go to graduate school. I went straight from engineering school to studying at Indiana University's Russian and Eastern European Institute, which was originally a Cold War language school developed for the military and foreign area officers and then had turned into a graduate program. And subsequently went on to study a bunch of these Central and Eastern European languages and area studies as a result of that experience backpacking. Yeah. Wow. Well, I hope it's cool if I share some of my stories. Please, it's a conversation, man. So, all right. I mentioned it to you in a DM at some point, but we didn't really have a longer coverage. My personal experience with backpacking was I strapped on a backpack the day after Easter in 2014. And I left my family home in St. Augustine, Florida. And my initial goal was to walk across the country. I didn't make it all the way across the country. I made it as far as the northwest corner of Arkansas, which had I gone a direct route would have been about a thousand miles, but it was a wildly indirect route. And I actually I walked about 735 miles of it, which yeah. It was fun. It was like I would wake up. I would just so at the end of each day, you know, as dusk is kind of setting, I would look along the road wherever I was until I could find a place where I didn't have to go over barbed wire to get off of the road. And then I just go lay in the pine needles and crash out for the night, get up the next morning. I would soak some oatmeal in a Ziploc baggy and then just have that with some chia seeds for breakfast. And then I'd walk until about 11, 1130. And then wherever I could, I just find a place to just lay down and then I just crash and sleep for an hour or two. And then I just hang out until around 330. And then I would just walk again until dusk. And so I was you know, I was I was clocking like 18 to 20 miles a day just walking along. But you know, I wanted to like meet people and interact with people. So my rule was that I wasn't hitchhiking, but I would take rides when they were offered. And so random people would just stop and pick me up and usually just drop me off the next town up the road five, seven miles, whatever. And kind of that was that was how I that was how I got along. And it was a lot of man, the the. Yeah, the weird, the weird stuff, the coincidences that like informed my whole journey before the journey even started and throughout the journey. That's like a whole story in and of itself. I love that you've had this experience. I think there's something like, even if your goal is to go across the country and like, oh, you only went to Northwest Arkansas or whatever. Yeah. Like there is still so much to be found in those kinds of experiences, right? Like, yeah, I'm sure you're probably still unwinding parts of it, you know, almost 10 years later. Yeah. Yeah. It was just, yeah. I mean, for me, honestly, the people that I did meet, you know, like the experiences of. And so yesterday, I had a conversation in an interview with this woman, Maya, who wrote this book about loving awakening. And in somewhere in her book, she talks about how like sometimes, you know, as far as like healing processes and things like that go really, you know, all a person actually needs is for someone that's just there, just listening to them. So, you know, for them to hear, to feel heard. And I very much experienced that on my cross-country walk, where sometimes I just meet people and just spending a couple of hours with them, just letting them tell me their story or whatever, you know, and then like, there's one young man in particular where like I wound up crashing with his family for a couple of weeks in Mississippi. And the day after I met him, his dad was like, man, do you have any idea how much he's changed since he met you? And I'm like, no, I never met him before I met him. I don't, I don't know what was going on. But yeah, just like profound experiences where, yeah, people, people can just change by having a witness, I guess. Yeah, and it's one, I mean, I think people, like we all carry this appetite in ourselves for acceptance and, or like seeking acceptance and connection and being heard, right, being witnessed. But when you, you know, in your position, and it reminds me of things I hear from other people about myself, like, you realize that the way you influence other people is by showing up so completely as yourself that the people you're around feel empowered to also show up completely as themselves. And I work hard, I have been working very hard in my personal relationships to reliably and consistently bring this kind of generosity to these spaces, to allow people to be all of themselves instead of just a prescribed version of themselves that they think is especially palatable for a particular audience. And I think one of the, I think a lot about this, and I think part of it especially resonates after the Dharma talk I heard on my last day of the retreat, like this idea that we are all inhabiting this super complex system and the propagation of our behaviors and choices and energies. I don't mean like woo-woo energies, I mean just like your kind of social energy and personal energy. This, this stuff echoes. And like, you know, you spent time with this young man and he saw through you, you were a prism through which he could see other parts of life that he probably didn't see a whole lot of because he was living in Mississippi with his family, right? And to have a glimpse into this entirely other alternate way of being is deeply, deeply empowering. I was in New York City for a UFO conference in December and a close friend of mine came with me and he's in his 40s, he was from rural Texas, rural East Texas, had never been to New York City before. Brilliant guy, like valedictorian of his class, like just a absolutely brilliant guy. And he got to New York City and he was like, what is this? People live like this? We were coming back from a psychedelic saga in Brooklyn, right, where for the first time in his life he had seen psychedelics in person because he'd never seen that because he grew up in East Texas, right? And I'm like, I don't know, this is like another weekend for me, like I'm at just some weird cultural thing. And I think of just how powerful that experience is to witness and be present for the ways in which people live that are so different from what experiences we've had personally. And I mean, I had that at retreats, I had that, I've had that kind of metaphysically in different experiences, I had that when I backpacked Europe, like it just sort of broadens your whole view about what makes a life and also it makes you realize that there are no proper ways to have a life. Like the rules we have in our head about what they're supposed to look like are pretty much just cultural artifacts and honestly control mechanisms. And once you realize that and you realize you can kind of just do stuff, it feels like a whole other part of your life actually begins. Yeah, yeah, absolutely. I mean, I'm remembering now having a walk with somebody when I was in Arkansas, a woman I wound up being roommates with for a little while and having that exact conversation with her on a walk where it was like, there is no one right way of being a human. You can do it a lot of different ways. And that's definitely, for her in that conversation and I think for a lot of people, it's kind of a revelation to realize that the life that my parents raised me in and the culture that I was born in, yeah, that's okay, but it doesn't have to be that way in order for it to be right or good or okay or anything like that. Yes, everything you're saying, yes, yes. All right, so you've mentioned UFOs and ufology. I want to peel it back a little bit before we dive in because I know that you and I have a connection and that's a man who I believe is, is he still alive or is he not? Is Art Bell still on the earth? No, Art Bell passed away Friday, April 13th, 2018. Okay, so I grew up listening to W-H-E-P, 1310 a.m. in Foley, Alabama. You could probably sing the jingle, yeah. I actually worked at that a.m. radio station as a teenager for about a year. Incredible. Yeah, and so, and then Art, we had like a local cable company. This was back before Comcast and Time Warner had devoured everything. And on Channel 7, they had a blue screen that would, you know, like in the studio at the a.m. station, that blue screen was burned into the TV because it never changed. It just had the local weather on it all day long every day. And then through that channel, they would play the a.m. radio station. So every night, I would have that on my TV and have Art Bell on, and I would listen to Art Bell until two or three in the morning and then I would sleep through school all day long in high school. Sounds like we had a similar high school experience. So that's where I probably first came into contact with a lot of actually, I remember talking because meditation is part of the conversation too. I literally, I remember listening to, and I don't know if I must have recorded it because I would record stuff on cassettes and then play it back later. So I would record Dr. Demento when that would come on the a.m. station as well and stuff like, but I remember there was like one particular time on an Art Bell show when one of his guests was like talking you through like feeling the energy in all of your chakras and I'm like laying on my floor and I can feel everything up until like the sixth and seventh chakras and then just like, I was buzzing, buzzing, buzzing, and then it just kind of froze and nothing happened at the top. So yeah, so anyway, Art Bell, tell me, what, when did you, when, yeah. I can't believe, like, so there's this quote from Carlo Levy. And it's the quote is, the future has an ancient heart, right? And like that's, I always think of that quote when I think about Art Bell because I've been listening to Art Bell since I was probably 10 years old. I love radio. Part of this is just an artifact of my upbringing. Like I grew up pretty much without television. Like we physically owned a TV, but like didn't have cable or anything. And I had an uncle, I have an uncle who was an amateur radio operator. My uncle Allen. And when I was seven or eight years old, he started showing me a lot of the radio equipment he had. And then when I was about 10 years old, I got licensed as an amateur radio operator. And I was very, very interested in radio. And I listened to the 50,000 watt boomer station WGY, which is out of upstate New York. When I was living in Indiana and Kentucky on clear nights because of signal propagation, I could still hear WGY even though I was halfway across the country. It's one of the strongest signals in North America. And they used to carry Joey Reynolds as the overnight host. And they switched from Joey Reynolds to Art Bell when I was about 10. Because I used to call into Joey Reynolds when I was like nine years old, right? Here's this like 50-year-old dude hosting an overnight radio show out of New York City who would occasionally get this like nine-year-old girl calling in from upstate New York to talk about radio, right? Like I was a weird kid. And Art Bell just, you know, there's such a set and setting to be associated with Coast to Coast AM, right? It only works if you're listening to it at nighttime and you're in the car or you're driving or you're camping or you're in bed. And it has to be dark and there has to be that kind of low fidelity crackling in the background. And Art was and remains kind of the bread and butter of my media consumption. I love him. He was call sign W-6-O-B-B. He was an expert class licensed amateur radio operator. And I have always been enthralled by the numinous, right? By the mysterious parts of life. And this is when I was a child. So I didn't really have the kind of bullshit detector I have now, certainly. And I in turn have started working on a project called We On The Night, the legacy of Art Bell and Coast to Coast AM. And it's both a personal passion project of just collecting and archiving research materials. So academic papers, articles, notes, et cetera, associated with the show. But also interviewing guests and producers and people who create it, create media now who were shaped by him. And then finally I'm writing on him. And I think that he has had this enormous effect on our current media landscape in ways that have not been appropriately surfaced and explored. And I say that partly because, I mean, there was a stretch in the 90s where his website was in the top five most visited websites on the internet. He was the most highly syndicated overnight talk show. I think he had almost 500 syndicated stations at his peak. He's also co-producing his show alongside Twin Peaks, alongside the X-Files, alongside Ruby Ridge and Waco in Oklahoma City in September 11th and Heaven's Gate. And all of these kinds of cross-encounter cultural events. And I think he, I'm certainly prone to wax nostalgic about him because I just, his show is like comfort food to me. Like I just listen to it all the time and it's pleasant. And I know all the hosts or all the guests. But I think it's also worth a critical lens. I mean, like the kind of cultural, the cultural successor of Art Bell are people like Alex Jones, who was a guest on Coast to Coast AM all throughout the 90s. And, you know, we've watched this sort of crazy culture where politics take hold in completely unprecedented fashions and in ways that have totally polarized every part of our current moment politically and socially. And I think Art's kind of credulousness and lack of skepticism and willingness to platform anyone with any claim with what seemed to be like full-throated support on the air, even though privately, I believe he was much more skeptical. Like we're all kind of reaping the effects of the kind of standard and culture that he was monumental in creating. And the other thing that I think is worth saying, before I totally put everyone to sleep nerding out about Art Bell, is that, you know, he, a huge part of his sort of ambiance is this like frontier kind of culture, right? Because he was broadcasting solo out of Parampinavada, the high desert, he did all his own network broadcasting from his little compound, like in a trailer on his land and did that. And this transferred over to establishing online communities. Like he was the first radio show to stream online. He had an intensely active online community, both on AOL chat rooms. The chat room was called the grassy knoll, like, you know, which plays into the JFK conspiracy theories. And then also had a BBS and had dedicated chat lines and meeting groups. And this was really one of the first kind of mainstream adjacent media figures. And in the, at the end of the 20th and early 21st century, who in addition to his show, also co-created an online community that basically built, collaboratively built like their own myths and folklore and kind of unified theory of everything that were, that was all kind of predicated on the guests and subjects that he would have on his show. And I think that that's also another artifact we witness today in the sense that in terms of like the trajectory of internet culture and communities, I think it's like Art Bell and something awful. And everything else after that is just like, what was the kind of like detritus that was left over after those two communities kind of either dissolved or changed form. Right. Yeah. When you mentioned the cross-cultural things and different things going on, I always reminded of, and you called it out specifically, Heaven's Gate. Right. Oh yeah. Yeah. I mean, reading, for me, reading The Men Who Stare at Goats, which for anybody who's seen the movie and hasn't read the book, let me tell you this, the movie's a lot of fun. The book will freak you out. Oh, we could, we should talk about The Monroe Institute and the gateway tapes. Well, we can talk about that too. Yeah, absolutely. And you're planning on going to The Monroe Institute this year, right? Yes. So I haven't booked it, but so I did the gateway tapes this summer, like spring and summer. I think they're super cool, really fascinated by Robert Monroe, read Journeys Out of Body over the summer, read The Trilogy. My favorite part about him is he's just this like completely normie, like hamburger eating, chain smoking, like white business bro, who all of a sudden starts having these like crazy experiences. And the best part is he's like, well, I would constantly have to stop my astral projection short because I'd get horny for my wife and want to come back and make love in the middle of the night, which is incredible to read. And how much he talks about how when he would do his astral traveling, he would love to go pinch women's bottoms. Like this is like, like you weren't getting like serious, like blue-blooded American male, like plus blue, like he's living in the overlap of that vendingogram. And it's incredible. Not everything out there in the spiritual world is acting in your best interest. Some of them just want to pinch your bottom. Yeah. But, but, but, but, but, yeah, the, the, yeah, I don't know. It was eye-opening to me to realize that, yeah, like the Heaven's Gate movement, like all of that, all of that weirdness that was going on in the late 90s, like some of that stuff. And like you mentioned with Alex Jones, like, yeah, like some of that stuff was seated on that goofy little radio show with some guy out in the desert. Oh, yeah. Yeah, go ahead. Heaven's Gate is a perfect example because Courtney Brown, so Courtney Brown is like a tenured professor at like Emory or something. I don't know if he's actually at Emory, but he's, he's not, he's not like a real institution. But like Courtney Brown's also deep into remote viewing. And he was the one who was on Art's show in November 1994, I think, talking about how he remote viewed a spaceship following Hailbop. And the Heaven's Gate website explicitly references this particular episode as like proof positive that the prophetic words of Marshall Appelwight or DOE were correct. And yeah, and there are actually a couple of the articles I have in the research archive are explicitly kind of unpacking the role of journalistic integrity in terms of providing a platform for these kinds of ideas and sort of the ramifications that can then occur, at least unintentionally in terms of real-world results of sort of legitimizing these fringe theories and ideas. And I'm with you, Men Who Stare at Goats is really good. The other book, if anyone is interested in this kind of other approach is Mirage Man. Did you ever see that? I haven't, I'm not aware of that one. The Books by Mark Pilkington and like long story short, it's basically just about ufology and high strangeness being utilized as a counter-intelligence tool to kind of manipulate different cultural and social narratives and cover up for like just larger like just government operations and black ops and stuff. Yeah, that makes sense. There's plenty of operability in covering up what's really going on with a plausible lie. Yeah, and a compelling lie, right? Right, no, yeah. Like people love aliens. Are you kidding me? They love flying saucers. They don't want to hear about like fireworks or whatever. Well, and with all the high weirdness that's been going on just in the past few years with COVID and everything else, to me it's always funny when people start pulling out Illuminati trilogy cards, like they pull out the cards and it's like, look, oh my God, this stuff's been in the culture since the... I'm like, yeah, this stuff's been in the culture since the 90s or earlier, you know? Yeah, it was very instructive. So Art holds that his classic New Year's Eve episodes where he takes predictions from callers and he alternates between reviewing the predictions from the year prior and then taking predictions for the upcoming year. And part of my project has been going through and listening to all these episodes and documenting all the predictions that were made and then trying to confirm or deny how good they were. And from 1987 through 2002, which are the years that I've done so far, I can't tell you how many times the same tropes that we hear now show up, mandatory vaccinations, the CDC and FDA and World Health Organization are working with the UN to force everyone to get vaccinated. You know, they're going to give everybody a number and an identity card and we're all going to go to like FEMA camps. Like the same or like the reptilians, right? Which like that's obviously euphemistic. It's really the Jews, but they say the reptilians because that's polite, I guess. But it's the same kind of talking points, this kind of millenarian sort of conspiracy culture that like frankly, I find this stuff entertaining folklore because the kind of flavor of it that you saw in the 90s, one was more palatable because it was extremely kind of subversive, right? Like you had things like Ruby Ridge where the conspiracy there was more the conspiracies you were hearing were more anti-federal government. Like this is back when the right wing was more kind of anti-government. But like the conspiracy culture too was a guy who found an alien on his hike and wrapped it in an emergency blanket and threw it in his freezer and then the government wouldn't leave him alone or Bob Lazar who claimed to work at Area 51 and touched and worked with alien technology. But the point is that there's almost this kind of innocuous folkloric value to like the 90s and early 2000s conspiracies and like in my head, and this may change. As I'm researching and learning more, but in my mind, there's a clear delineation with September 11th because that kind of kicks off the September 11th truth or movements. And I think that that also signifies kind of the rise of these Alex Jones style figures. And then in turn, this kind of propagates the conspiracy culture and subculture in a kind of much more nefarious direction. It's not just bigfoot and aliens anymore. It's Sandy Hook was fake and, you know, Adrena Crome and Q and all this other kind of like unwinding of consensus reality instead of this like, oh, we're collaboratively telling stories around the radio, which is like our version of sitting around a campfire. Yeah. I mean, definitely, yeah, consensus reality is unraveling. We don't, you know, it's not like it was when we were very young kids and even though you didn't really watch TV, you know, back then, you know, like, there were three channels and everybody got the same news and everybody was telling the same stories and listening to the same songs and now, you know, there's an endless plethora of options that are streaming that you can, you know, you pick your own pick your own random subculture. Yes. But OK, so one thing that I wanted to reach back to was just so with what you were sharing about your own experience, I'm imagining, like, Jodie Foster in contact with her ham radio as a little girl and then there you are with your radio as a young girl. Pretty wild stuff. So what, what would you say? And, you know, we've only got we've only got another half hour or 40 minutes or so. So in brief, what would you say about UFOs and ufology that really kind of speaks to you? Sure. So and I'm actually teaching a class next week or hosting a salon on this, like what we talk about when we talk about UFOs. Oh, there's an origami reference again. Yeah, exactly. Exactly. Yes. And before I start talking about ufology, and I should have to mention this before talking about Art Bell, which is that I'm of a disposition where I regularly engage with and discuss and think about and explore things that I do not categorically believe in or endorse. Right. And I say that because I'm going to talk about some things that I personally, Lea Prime, either do not actually have a personal opinion on or do not agree with, but are part of the sort of cultural fabric or the tapestry associated with ufology and the sort of Fortiana's like kind of community or category. What is Fortiana's? So Fortiana references Charles Fort who wrote the Book of the Damned in the early 20th century and it's sort of considered to be the first kind of totalistic study of high strangeness. So ghosts, Psy, telekinesis, aliens, fey, fairy, bigfoot, etc. It's kind of anything that falls under that kind of high strangeness category. And Charles Fort is sort of seen as the kind of modern cultural carrier of defining and exploring high strangeness. There's a great biography of him out there. I don't remember what it's called, but his Book of the Damned like Stephen King relied on that book to write fire starter and Carrie and The Shining. Like it underpins a lot of kind of modern horror and this sort of like fate magazine UFO or Bell stuff as well. So all that said, the first thing to know about ufology is that at this point in our current moment in 2022, ufology, the view of ufology is flying saucers in little green men or actual literal physical aliens coming from actual literal extraterrestrial spaces so not earth. This is a very past save you. there are pockets of people who still buy into this but you don't typically see it discussed. Where this entire collective subject is going is into the realm of consciousness, consciousness studies, spiritual emergence, metaphysics and this sort of uncanny space that humans have experienced either deliberately or spontaneously pretty much across all cultures and societies and religions. There's a professor at Rice University, Jeffrey Kreipel who writes on this. He's the chair of the philosophy and religious studies department, Brilliant Man. And he basically says that to study the UFO is to study basically everything. And the reason I think it's important to make that delineation is because in the kind of common imagination when we talk about ufology, like people think like spock ears and flying saucers or Mars attacks or whatever. But also because a lot of ufology in my opinion is really pointing to like in modernity in this highly empirical hyper materialist reality or a consensus reality that we inhabit in like the Western world. We have very, very few cultural narratives and even fewer kind of language or vocabulary terms to describe human encounters with the mysterious or the numinous. And so in turn there has been this kind of secular creation of community myth and language models to discuss these ineffable experiences. And because we live in a highly secular society these experiences tend to be passed through the lens of things like Twin Peaks or the X-Files. But the reality is that these kinds of experiences that experiencers have and experiencer is kind of what you would call someone who claims to have had contact with non-human intelligence or abduction or whatever. These are experiences that have been pretty well documented. I mean like look at Julian of Norwich in the medieval period in the showings of Christ or Philip K. Dick, right? In his experience with Gnosticism and Valus or The Miracle at Fatima The Visions at Fatima which the Roman Catholic Church says is a Marian apparition. It was the Virgin Mary appearing before 50,000 people. But if you read the actual witness testimony and reports associated with this like it's a classic UFO experience it's a group of people seeing something moving around in the sky in an anomalous fashion it influenced them in a psychologically significant or spiritually significant way and then it's sort of redacted into the prevailing cultural mythology or framework at the time which in Portugal in 1917 was unsurprisingly Roman Catholicism. So you know when you think about ufology like it is historically the subject has very much been about pursuing something that is just we're kind of asymptotically approaching something just out of our technological reach. So in the 40s and 50s it was people from Venus who were visiting in flying saucers in the 1880s it was airships. You see this kind of oblique reference to kind of the underpinning cultural anxieties around technology as well so like in the 90s it was alien hybrids and probes and medical experiments right because this is when people are concerned about genetic testing and cloning of Dolly and cloning yes and so as our technological capacities and capabilities have accelerated in turn our vision of the UFO has changed and so now in 2022 we're talking about one of these last kind of expansive frontiers that's still very very mysterious which is consciousness as we're talking about out of body experiences near-death experiences astral projection etc and in terms of like the acceptability of these experiences by and large like people will say like yes psychedelic experiences count with this stuff holotropic breath work counts with this kind of stuff in terms of inducing what is known as an experience or an encounter with the phenomena like that's typically the terminology that you'll hear associated with ufology at this point they're no longer abductees they're experiencers because experiencer includes just a very kind of enormous array of experiences or events that people may have and the phenomena basically attempts using that terminology alone really tries to unyoke whatever this is whatever it is from the kind of popular view of like a flying saucer or you know something in the sky right one of the things that I'm thinking about is how especially talking about like something in the sky right a couple years ago the navy releases footage of the lights in the sky and and we're all like yeah okay you know whatever it's Wednesday stuff whatever yeah there's stuff I mean my cousin's been telling me about that shit my whole life you know I mean doesn't affect the fact that I gotta pay my rent right yeah and this is yeah so 2017 brought a huge new population into this subject right there's this Leslie Cain and Ralph Blumenthal are basically rock stars in this community because they're the ones that wrote the story in 2017 in the New York Times and then Luella Zondo is the counterintelligence agent a former former counterintelligence guy for the government who also has pushed for the release of the Nimitz videos and gimbal and gofast which are what you're talking about and in the community they're called tic-tacs what what the guys saw because they look like little tic-tacs yeah and it's it's interesting I'll be very candid that's a side of the community I don't even really touch very much because there is just a huge amount of one in fighting right about what was actually seen is it technological artifacts that were picked up on multiple systems or was it actually something anomalous and also because I mean it's a consistent report though and I say that for my own personal life I have not seen those lights myself but I'm thinking of a friend named Kyle who is out on the ocean and who saw who saw that same pattern of like leapfrogging lights just out in the night sky out on the open ocean another buddy of mine Jason who was in Afghanistan and was just looking at the night sky through like IR binoculars and started seeing the same thing with the lights that were leapfrogging each other like whether it's a military op that's happening with some kind of advanced stareships or whether it's really something else like there is something that's up there in the sky that's flickering around Oh for sure and it's one of my co-hosts on my show he's a plasma guy right like this is that's what people in the community are calling is like oh yeah Campbell he's a plasma guy and it's basically that like what people the theory with the plasma theory is that there's just really large amounts of anomalous atmospheric phenomena that happen rarely enough that they aren't captured in a scientifically or empirically sound fashion so like ball lightning is a good example like ball lightning wasn't actually confirmed to exist until 2014 but we have like like mythological or folklore reports of ball lightning forever but it wasn't until 2014 that we could actually capture it and measure it in a way that says okay empirically this is a real phenomena and I bring this up because the subject of ufology just like I think a whole lot of people are kind of starting to wake up to really speaks in many respects to the limitations of our scientific understanding of the world like I think we tend to grow up with this idea that science understands a whole lot of what goes on around us but the reality is that there are enormous kind of epistemological holes and so much of what we explore and understand we can only sort of suppose to understand a fraction of a fraction of phenomena and to kind of circle back with this whole like oh yeah plasma like if you read about self-organization in plasma an atmospheric phenomena like plasma behaves very similarly to these reports it can like take off turn move maneuver break apart and come back together in ways that are completely unlike any other technology known on earth and they behave in a self-organizing fashion so for people who watch them it very much looks like there's deliberate intelligent consciousness behind it just because self-organizing complex systems behave in ways that some level can be interpreted as being intelligent even if it may not be alive I being something of a magical thinker would say you know yeah I mean right like why why why couldn't that you know we we we can we can understand it scientifically as as the function of plasma but it could have its own kind of a consciousness right I mean like in in Vedic texts in the Hindu tradition you know our son you know it has a name it's Surya and Surya is a being who has mastered the capacity to hold the frequency of a sun you know so and and you're not alone in saying this there's a professor Massimo Tio Durrani out of northern Italy PhD classic like rogue scientist kind of guy has published extensively spent lots of time in Hestel in Norway with the Hestel in lights where people witness this abnormal or anomalous atmospheric phenomena and he has kind of speculated on if there's consciousness behind this or sort of intelligence in a loose sense that it engages with and manifests in a way that we then subsequently perceive as lights in the sky that behave in an anomalous fashion yeah yeah I mean and okay so we talked about kind of uf phology and its relationship to kind of replacing the religious narrative in an increasingly secular west and then talking about science and I think that you know like we kind of we at least brushed against a difference between actual science and scientism right like a lot of people a lot of people believe in science but they don't believe that science isn't settled that you know like yes the half life of a scientific fact is about 40 years before we realized that oh like yeah part of that was right but a lot of that was wrong and also like every time we find something out we uncover just a ton of shit that we don't know anything about and and then what what also comes to mind for me is how you know how we interpret things through the lens of our present understanding and now as you know and of course you know milleniarianism is perennial but it does feel as though you know obviously we're getting closer to the eschaton because you know everything could go into a numinous cloud of like gray goo and and AGI you know DMT elves just kind of you know like if you take the right amount of the certain thing then all of the sudden the fucking sky just dissolves and yes everything's gone everything is gone yeah it's it's funny you're mentioning this because i'm i run a psychedelic book club um and for anyone listening like you're welcome to join and slide into my DMs on twitter i'm atlia prime it's open um but we're reading andrew gallimore's alien information theory okay um and it's all about DMT like how basically how DMT is sort of a reality modulator in the human mind and the kind of exploration of its effects on the brain's processing of information and sort of what it may say to us about alternate dimensions and it's um it's very good stuff it's i'm making it sound way more out there than it actually is like the author gallimore is like at university of tokyo he's like a real deal academic um but he's he's written this and then he also wrote another book on psychedelics called reality switch technologies which is also sort of about leveraging expanded states and altered states of consciousness through psychedelics in order to access or explore alternate realities he's also part of them DMTx with rick strassman which is super fascinating did you ever did you ever go to deoxy back before it stopped existing no no okay so there i don't even know what it is there used to be a website called deoxy.org and you can find it on the way back machine um it kind it stopped being tended to properly right around the time um uh the the the the first the the protests in new york what was that occupy wall street yeah yeah yeah yeah 11 yeah 20 yeah exactly 20 11 like the the last the last actual post that was put in the in the news block of deoxy was about about occupy wall street and then the site stayed up for a few more years and then there was another site called reoxy but it's got just the I don't know if you've seen it in my link tree the the article about like the the truth about marijuana that nobody wants to hear and it kind of goes both sides on like oh yeah here's a bunch of reasons why people think it's bad and here's a bunch of people why reasons think people think it's great and they're both wrong for these other reasons um that that I scraped off of deoxy and and and then republished because I didn't want it to get lost in the sands of of of sites that don't get tended anymore but and at the time when I was when I was when I was there I didn't even know that deoxy as the name had anything to do with DMT because my my awareness of psychedelics really didn't start to bud until somewhere in the past six years ago or so but talking about DMT and altered states and and all of that so do you know much about and talking about meditation do you know much about dark retreats yes so I'm familiar with them I've never been on one but okay I've heard you've been on one and I I love to hear more yeah okay so I um I I I had signed up to go do an ayahuasca retreat and in the time between when I signed up to do it and when I actually did it because I was you know watching a lot of videos about psychedelic experiences and DMT and ayahuasca and da da da da were you just like streaming Joe Rogan 24-7 no you can tell me Luke it's just you and I no whisper it in my ear okay I'm gonna say this I'm gonna say I'm gonna say a few things about about Joe Rogan I listened to Joe Rogan a lot back in 2011-2012 and 2010 too and one of the things one of the podcasts Joe Rogan turned me on to was called in our time by BBC's radio four and that's literally just like people from like Christ College and whatever coming together to talk about like poets and thinkers and mathematical content it's a really good like that was probably the one recommendation that I got from Joe Rogan that I love and I listened to him a lot and I got turned on to Duncan Trussell by him and all of that but but but you know the thing with with him with Duncan and honestly with anybody if you listen to their podcast for long enough is they're recycling a lot of the same material and after a couple of years of listening to Joe I just didn't really have that much more than I needed to get from him so no it was in it was in 20 the end of 2019 I had signed up to go do this retreat in 2020 at the very beginning of 2020 and because I'm watching all of this stuff on YouTube a London real interview with Montag Cia talking about dark retreats came up in my YouTube feed and when I watch that then I started I found a couple of other websites and I started doing some research and I was lucky enough to be living in a cabin with like one window in in on the Olympic Peninsula in Washington and so I just went to the hardware store and I taped up my window and I got one of my friends in the little community that I was living with to come by and bring me food every day and I I I had a few failed attempts and then on my third attempt the light switched on the the energy went all the way from the base of my spine all the way up into my pineal gland and then the vision was exposed so the first the first vision that I had it was it was like a wire most of my visions were just like black and white wireframe kind of things and it it started from the feet and went up and I thought it was like the colossus of roads and in his hand he was holding you know like a scepter and at the top of the scepter it was just light shooting out of it and then it wasn't later until I was looking at tarot cards and I realized like holy shit like that was the magician like literally like the first vision that I had was of like the tarot drawing of the magician archetypical perennialist kind of vision and so cool and before and and and even before that like when I was like in hypnagogia like I would have or hypnopopy you know coming in and out of sleep and I've had I've had visions and communications and stuff like that that happened to me so scrolling back in 2010 I at the beginning of 2010 I was working in Boston, Massachusetts as a storage engineer I was making actual money for the only time in my life so in my life yeah I was I was very normie I was also very drunk and very disappointed with my life and I might have had a brain tumor and when I was scrolling further back when I was like 18, 19 years old I read Franny and Zoe by J.D. Salinger and Franny and Zoe led me to the Way of the Pilgrim and the Way of the Pilgrim led me to the File of Clea and I read those books all three of them well I didn't read the File of Clea I just I had a copy of one of the volumes and I mentally I put them behind glass and I said break in case of emergency and so in 2010 Lord Jesus Christ Son of God have mercy on me the center Lord Jesus Christ Son of God have mercy on me the center and I just spun all the way out and during that spin out I pretty sure I had two near-death experiences but I don't remember them at all and and in I don't know how much you've studied near-death experiences I've studied a lot of them a lot and for some people like it'll they'll have had one but like all memory of it gets locked away and it's not until decades later that spontaneous is like boom all of the trauma any kind of trauma like your brain can have that effect it's sort of right puts up a screen and then later it will emerge and become processed or become you know made accessible exactly and I think for me at a certain level especially given like you know in the year after that somebody was talking to me about their near-death experiences and then I started studying near-death experiences and then you know like they were they would just be nights where I would just like be sitting on the couch just crying wishing I could go home and I think part of the reason why you know I haven't been able to remember any of that stuff is because for some people it's just too damn hard to be here when they know there's something better somewhere else and I mean this is this is a very classic post NDE response yeah that people recognize that there is something far far beyond sort of our most immediate sense of reality and that you know this like what you're describing is something I've heard in NDE reports and experiences consistently yeah yeah like like a kind of sorrow at having to quote unquote come back oh yeah yeah yeah absolutely I mean in in so the NDE's that I probably had were in like 2012 or no in 2010 then in 2012 I was up in the smoky mountains I was woofing with my girlfriend at the time sleeping out in like a barn in the freezing cold and I woke up in the middle of the night because I had been reading the phylocalia since then and I'd learned about holding vigil and so the way that the holding vigil works is you know like four in the morning or you know when you wake up at that like three or four in the morning hour then you just you read songs and and I think you know like actual vigil like in the religious tradition you actually you know like you you tattle off into the chapel with all of the other monks or whatever and then you're you're singing Psalms together but for me I just I woke up in the middle of the night and I pulled out my Bible and I was just reading Psalms until I was just exhausted and then I laid back in bed and I woke up that next morning with just like almost like a rising and passing kind of feeling of just like energy flowing all over my body and I just I stood up and the words just came out of my mouth and I said I saw him I saw him and he was the most beautiful thing I've ever seen I don't I don't I don't remember what I saw I don't know what we if he said anything to me if we had a conversation I have no idea this is like this is another one of those kind of like Indies you can't remember kind of things where just like I had a religious experience that I only know that I had like I don't remember having it I just know that it happened to some part of my subconscious that isn't fully integrated with my conscious self Yes and that like you were speaking these words speaks almost to existing as a conduit through which something else was passing right like that's that's what strikes me hearing this kind of story thinking about people I mean the mathematician Rwanda John like he talked about how when he was solving proofs like it wasn't him doing it it was the goddess Lakshmi told him Right and I've shared that story with you as well about the poems that I wrote right where just like I just I ended that was in it's almost like like people will use the term channeling right I don't even like that term because it confers this kind of like lifetime movie like medium crystal ball but like especially like there's something kind of mysterious and tremendous about the libidinal creativity that humans experience because it seems to just and I mean that's dude that's like going back to the magician tarot card right like this is something you see repeated in like the esoteric traditions this idea of man as a magician because he takes the metaphysical and the non real and makes it real and materially real is sort of this conduit through which you know the minds and creativity and ideas out there pass through man or woman or he she them whatever and then is manifested like we manifest it it's the muses right like this is the artists muses or like you talking about this poetry or speaking these words upon waking or at this vigil yeah well and so for for the listener I'm assuming there'll be a few of you the poem that I'm seeing there were a couple of occasions where I you know I was I was I was living on a boat that had previously like years and years before had been lived on by a monk so this was already like a rarefied air environment or he was like a defrock monk whatever but for me they're they're they'll no not curse but but the veil was incredibly thin in that space and so for me like I would pray and meditate and whatever and and there were a couple of times where literally it was just like upon waking I just reached up grabbed a notepad and just the words the words just came out of my hand like I wrote them but it was not it was not me that was like oh I'm going to write a poem now like let me think about the words I'm going to put on the notes like the words just came like I literally was just a conduit for the words to fall onto the page by my hand through something that had spoken into my consciousness before I was even Luke again and yeah it's it's crazy like we're really getting into like the juicy parts of the conversation for me now an hour and 20 minutes in okay so dark retreat stuff so it before before before the lights fully switched on and I got into like into like jonic kind of realms and visionary states and things in in dream space okay so there was this there was this one dream that I had where I was in it was like this was like Mahabharata like cool era era India space right I'm in these like dark rooms like Vedic stuff like deep Vedic stuff I mean I'm in these like dark rooms where there are sand sculptures of like Hindu gods and goddesses and things there's just like super eerie like Hindu style music that's happening in the background and I don't remember just like I see like a couple of these sand sculptures that like look like gods or goddesses or something and and you can like it's literally like the sands of time that are that these stories are and or these these gods or whatever are made out of and then the next thing I know I'm on a huge pool and in every direction around like it's it's like a giant rectangular pool almost like the reflecting pool on the mall in in DC or something but on every side of it are just these huge like palace buildings it's it's it's and then I'm on a little raft and there's just little golden being named Eddie next to me and he hands me a golden cord and I know that and and basically I just like take it and I just like tie a slipknot around the edge of the raft that I'm sitting on and he said and and and he says alright it's going to get a whole lot darker from here and he just like grabs me and plunges me under the water and then and then I wake up and and to me in the afterwards I'm like oh shit like he gave me a lot of rope and I really could have like tied this down tight and like gotten close and gotten safe but instead I was like fuck it you know this knot's gonna this knot's gonna hold you can just whip me along on the tail end of it I'll I'll go for the ride how um how long into this retreat was it before you started having these experiences that the the the shashana channel opened up and I started having like the real the real like wire framey vision stuff that happened for me around day it was so the first time I went in I was in for five days the second time I went in I was in for five days and I had like a three-day gap between the first and second and then I had like a week gap between the second and the third on the third one it was like it was like day six when I went in day six or day seven I finally and if you listen to enough of Daniel Ingram stuff talking about like fire casino retreats I was in I was I got out of the merc and into the magic on like day six or day seven or so and then and and and we've talked about you know you mentioned Philip K. Dick and talking about like a scan or darkly and there was a point in there where I saw I saw I saw basically like myself in profile and it's like I'm holding a mirror in my hand and there's a white light shooting out of the you know the center of my Ajna into the mirror and then it's reflecting back into my eyes in the rainbow pattern so it's almost like it's kind of like the dark side of the moon cover except instead of going in one side and out the other it's going in one side and then back into my right reflecting back exactly so everything that I'm seeing is like a prismatic reflection of of of like my own inner projections kind of thing right and were there accompanying somatic sensations or experiences I mean I was just blissed the fuck out I can remember just like dancing in the room and being like oh wow you know just like I feel like I'm getting high on my own supply because I did have all of that like precognitive loading of like what I'm doing is I'm upgrading my pineal gland so that it goes from like melatonin saturation to Pyrenees or whatever that's called into like the five MEO DMT and the DMT stuff and and all of that and so I'm just I'm feeling blissed out and so and then while I was in there I was meditating but I was only meditating for like four hours a day like once every six hours for an hour at a time and when I was sitting and meditating I had a triangle in front of me like at what at some point I just I just had like a perfect equilateral triangle in front of me and I had I had just like a very dull white light and the the dull white light was like dancing in front of me almost like the wormhole at the beginning of doctor who I had a lot of I've got it I have got a lot of doctor who's shit going on and so there's definitely a part of me that thinks that I am the doctor but the wormhole's bouncing around and and I get to a point where a couple of really fascinating things that I learned one so and having been on retreats or just being a human you know what it's like where your mind gets stuck in a loop like you're thinking about that thing that happened or the you know whatever and you just keep thinking and and man and that's the first time I went on a vipassana retreat I'm just like okay I thought this same story through and then I just keep thinking the same story like you just start back over again and you just keep thinking the same story through until somehow eventually you learn how to just like let go of the looping but in the dark retreat I see I see how like when I when I'm thinking about things that I like the the light pulls off in one particular direction and when I'm thinking about things that I don't like pulls off in the other direction and when I start to loop then then it just keeps pulling to that one direction and then things went like 3d mode and I like saw how that loop if you look at it from above it actually turns into a mandala and then that was where it clicked for me it's like oh my god like when people are taking psychedelics and they see those incredible mandalas it's because you know being in a darker retreat and getting high on your own supply is very different from like dosing on DMT you're taking some psychedelics because you're not getting nearly as much of it nearly as quickly when you're doing it endogenously but when you're doing it exogenously then you get a huge boost all at once and whatever whatever loop you're carrying or experiencing in that moment you see it from the mandala down and so those mandalas to me at least my understanding is like oh this is just a beautiful creation of your mind and just like the kaleidoscopic reflection of your desires bouncing against themselves turning into these cool patterns that you see and then the day that I left the retreat I left the retreat not because I couldn't take more but because I got to an aha moment where the light okay because I'm pulling off in one direction I'm pulling off in the other direction that's based off of desire and aversion and I know enough about buddhism to know that all right so what's the illusionary part of this because the whole time like that tunnel is always kind of arcing down down down like I can I figured out okay if I stop thinking about this I stop thinking about that I'm not bouncing side to side anymore but it's still pulling down and the aha moment and Daniel Ingram diagnosed this is me entering into second vipassana genre the aha moment was when I realized that me trying to control my mind like me like not only just observing my mind but me also like authoring my inner narrative is causing that downward pull of my mind the the illusory nature of my mind is that it's my mind that I'm right and you're driving it and you're exactly right that I'm the driver so once I realized that the train is on a track and I don't need to fucking hold on to the wheel then all of a sudden it just does its own thing that that light that I was reflecting okay and so before before I woke up that morning and I had that meditation I had a dream where somebody gave me a protect for leap and then when I had that realization I realized that the the light that I had been looking at that whole time it wasn't the clear light that I've been looking for it was a reflection of the light onto an arm inside the movement of a watch and this whole time I've been I've been I've been centering on a dim reflection of the light as my guide to get to the point where I where I could understand a deeper layer of what was happening on the inside and that was I had just I had this perfect aha and I just felt completely like good and stable and in my mind I was like okay what I need to do is I need to integrate I've gotten I've gotten I've gotten you know I've gotten enough experiences out of this that what I need to do is I need to integrate everything that I've learned enough that I can get back to this same position without being in this extreme of an environment before I try to go further with the environment and since then and then I went on it I tried to do another dark retreat that really almost melted my nervous system a year later because I hadn't done the integration I'm still I'm still putting my life together since then but but yeah so that's that's a little bit about that dude thank you so much for sharing I've been so curious about your experience on the dark retreat it's certainly something I've heard kind of murmured about in the spaces I'm in whether it's Buddhism or meditation or psychedelics or just any of this so I think you're the first person I've talked to who's actually done one and can kind of speak to that experience yeah I mean it is kind of like the perfect combination of those things because you meditating in it you can really especially if you're well informed in like understanding the mind and consciousness and Buddhism and those kinds of things like you can make a lot of sense out of what's happening and it has the psychedelic element because like it's not exogenous it's an indot but it's but it's definitely a psychedelic experience and sure and and it can get very weird and mystical and and and I'm sure very UFOE and all that like it's oh yeah it's and for me you know it's and before before I went in the first time sorry I'm trying to I'm trying to pull up my my English standard version right now because I want to read it word for word here before the before the beginning of my first retreat I knew what I was up to because in the beginning was the word and the word was with God and the word was God and he was in the beginning with God and all things that were made through him and without him not anything was made and he was life the life was the light of men the light shines in the darkness and the darkness has not overcome it and that was for me the thing where I'm like I'm going to go into the darkness so that I can find the light and oh my God oh my God the light the light the light is there the light is inside of man and you know not just dudes man but humanity right yeah like everyone right yeah so yeah so that's that's a bit that's a bit about that yeah it's it's fun to talk about and but like there were there were other times too we're just like sitting there like and it's with the hindu stuff you know how they do like the the shadow puppet plays at like I was literally like sitting there and like there would be times you know like the wine glass thing where it's like two faces facing each other where like sometimes I would just see the two faces and sometimes they would be like kissing each other or sometimes they would be like biting at each other just like the amount of like projections and then plateaus cave and all of the allegory like these people are pointing at some and I don't know how and again I don't know how much of that is informed by me and my cognitive pre-loading of those stories how much of those stories are just perennial that comes to show itself to you when you get into the places where you can see deeply but uh I feel like yeah it's there and it's not necessarily recommendable to dive in as deep as I did as quick as I did because the the emotional fallout for me in the months afterwards was pretty real because once I had substantial sure I mean oh after I had my first after that I did like a a couple months after that I had a Feldenkrais session and then the day after that because of the Feldenkrais like I had my first big A and P and then after that then like then I started getting like very very dangerous to be around emotionally just because like somebody finally popped the cork on my anger bottle and then I was just like a volcano of anger to be around and all of that but um okay so I've taken over and I want to be conscious of time I know that you've got places to be thank you for being here this evening Luke thank you so much this was a wonderful um maybe we can do a part two for public dissemination but also it was just so wonderful to talk to you and and hear some of your experiences and share some ideas so anytime you want to continue I'd love to come back all right great yeah we'll do we'll do a part two sometime before too long thank you so much Leah for having this chat of course thank you Luke thank you bye

Hi, Maya, it's nice to talk with you. So you have a new book that, is it published yet or soon to be published? It should be out on roughly the 7th of January. Okay, and is that like on Amazon and other places where in particular are you selling it through? It's going to be a free book and it's available as PDF and other e-book formats. But I don't yet know whether I will put it on Amazon. It kind of depends on the on their current requirements. OK, and I'm just looking at your at your bio here that you have already published some 17 books. Yeah, and that's that's only in traditionally published books. I was originally going to go the traditional route with this book as well. But I yeah, my previous books were in Finland and I hate the English language publishing world. So I was like, OK, let's do it another way, which is also like maybe more fitting with Buddhist teachings. So that is available for everyone for free. Nice. So the book that you're publishing here later this month is called Loving Awakening. Is that right? Yeah. Yeah. How how would you describe the book to someone who is only just now hearing the first thing about it? Yeah, it's it's a book that's about awakening and enlightenment, but it's also about a lot of things such as psychotherapy and trauma and self therapy methods, such as internal family systems, somatic work and imaginal practice and body work and art and shared practices and especially practicing with friends and in community. So let let me tell you now, because I know that some of the people that are going to listen to this and and myself, you know, prior to just, you know, in the past few months, I have never heard of internal family systems. This to me, it seems like this is very cutting edge stuff. What is it? Yeah, I think you could call it cutting edge, even though IFS was already developed a few decades ago, but it has all only gained popularity in the recent years. So it's a system that's based on the idea that your mind consists of parts and that's the parts are why people sometimes act in weird ways or they don't do stuff they want to do or they do things they really don't want to do, but somehow they still do them. And the IFS is psychotherapy, but you can also do it with yourself by talking with your parts. And especially in the context of my book, IFS is also a wider worldview because it's based on the idea that everyone's mind consists of parts. So, for example, if someone treats you in a hurtful way, it's not because they're a bad person, but because you probably triggered a child part that might even believe that you're their mom and you did something hurtful, whether or not you actually did. So it really helps you view the people close to you as well as society at large as a system of mostly parts that are born of trauma. So it's a very, I feel like it's a very revolutionary worldview as well as a therapy method. Yeah, I mean, in in the reading of your book that I did, I saw that I think I remember at some point you almost made the claim that, you know, when it comes to awakening or enlightenment, that a person need not necessarily meditate at all that simply by doing this this work with your parts, it's possible to realize to realize enlightenment without even needing to meditate. Is that is that how you would describe it? Yeah, that's that's what I'm claiming, but it's not just a claim about IFS. I really believe that meditation is not the only way to attain enlightenment. It's there are people who just wake up one day and what's happened? And obviously, that's not the very good way to like just hope that one day you will wake up enlightened. And but there are many other techniques and practices. And I strongly suspect that enlightenment as as described in Buddhism, that it's kind of like dismantling your sense of self, that the sense of self also consists of parts. So when you heal these parts that make up yourself, then the sense of having a separate self disappears. Yeah, I know that from from as you say that, you know, different ways to that enlightenment can happen, that meditation isn't absolutely necessary. The first thing that sprang to mind for me was when the Buddha, like when he first kind of rejoined the world and he came in he came in contact with the clutch of guys that he had been doing aesthetic practices with beforehand and no sooner than he described his understanding of dependent origination, then one of them just immediately like got it. And aha, you know, just like had unbound the the the links of of craving and ended suffering in that moment. Yeah, and it's really like the Buddhist scripture is full of these stories of like someone just hears the Buddha like say one thing and instantly they're fully enlightened. And that may sound like, well, these kinds of people don't exist anymore. But my book also talks about the practice of pointing out which are like teachers basically doing the same thing. They are like showing you like, hey, did you notice that you don't actually have a self in such a way that this causes this exact realization? So. I want to know a little bit more about you and your personal journey into IFS and meditation and awakening. Tell me more. Yeah, so my journey started with loving kindness practice which always felt very natural to me. I know it doesn't feel that way to everyone. There are a lot of people really, really struggle to generate the feelings of loving kindness. But to me, that always came very naturally. So that was my main practice for quite a while. But when did you when did you first learn about loving kindness practice and start practicing it? I first learned it, I think, in 2015. And then I thought, oh, that sounds just like my thing. And then I didn't do anything until 2017. And then I was like, OK, I should probably actually try this thing. And I also I tried many other forms of meditation. Like I originally I used to do quite a lot of body scans, for example, but I haven't done that in years. I've tried a lot of different techniques. And yeah, like like my book also describes techniques like Alexander technique, which is maybe somewhere between body work and meditation. IFS I found in 2018. It immediately made me feel like, OK, there's there's a lot of something here. Now, with that with the IFS, so you learned about it in 2018. Did you have a gap between learning about it and putting it into practice the way that you did with with loving kindness? Actually, it happened the other way around with IFS. I was doing another type of a bit similar practice with a friend. But we started finding parts and he had heard of IFS and was like, this sounds like something that resembles IFS. So we started reading about it. And yeah, it turned out that these things were parts. I was discovering child parts. So, yeah, I first discovered parts and then I discovered IFS. So what what are the different what are the different parts? You mentioned child parts. I think in the book, I remember there being protectors and managers. Is that right? Are there more? Or did I get those wrong? There are many different ways of categorizing parts. And the main IFS theory says that parts can be exiles, which are like parts that have a lot of pain. And other parts are like, no, we don't want to have this pain. Let's push it away. So then protect their parts, which may be managers or firefighters are there to protect you from the exiles pain. This is one way to do. And most people use this way. But I personally haven't always found it so helpful. So I use another theory, which is called structural dissociation, even though I don't have this association myself. But that theory uses it divides parts into flight, flight, freeze, phone, attach. What's that? I think I think that was all of them. Yeah. Yeah. Anyway, it's like, of course, you could probably discover other ways because it's not like there's are not things that really exist. There are just ways of looking at your parts. But most parts would be children, but they are also parts that are your current age or like 15 years old. I think in the book, I remember you mentioning somebody having a part that's like a raccoon. I think I've heard I think I think on Twitter. Also, I've seen some people talking about some parts that have some pretty exotic characteristics. Yeah, I've had quite a lot of different animals, especially dogs. And I guess it's really like a dog, for example, it can symbolize playfulness, but also safety. So that's like a natural symbol. But yeah, I've had parts that have been items. I've had one part that was like a film projector. And I've had parts that were statues. And it's also Pokemons. Wow. So. Two thousand and fifteen, you learn about loving kindness. Two thousand and seventeen, you start practicing loving kindness. Two thousand and eighteen, you stumble your way into I.F.S. Yeah, and a lot of a lot of other practices in general in 2018. I kind of discovered that self therapy was a thing. I.F.S. wasn't the first one I tried. I started with Jen Lin's focusing, which is very popular, but I never got much out of it. And then I tried another technique called core transformation, which some of my friends find very helpful. And I also didn't get very much out of it. But then I found I.F.S. and yeah, I also found hypnosis in 2018. And I was really excited about them both. I I personally. Hypnosis for me just doesn't I can't I can't get. I can't get anywhere. I can't get I went a few years back. I went to a woman to try to do like past lives regression. And she tried everything that she knew. And at the end of it, she was like, yeah, I I. I don't know what to tell you. Sorry. So. She wasn't able to hypnotize you at all or no. Yeah, no, she wasn't able to hypnotize me at all. And and, you know, in your book, you talk about trauma and PTSD and and CPTSD and for me, I think it probably back in 2019. I saw I was doing some some some different work. And at some point, you know, like the therapist that I was talking to said, yeah, you know, like, you don't just have you've got CPTSD, like the childhood that you went through, you know, like this is not this is this is not just an easy thing to just address one issue because this is just a prolonged cluster of things that happen to you. I don't know if that ties in with not being able to be hypnotized, but for me, I guess maybe there's something there. Well, usually people with all of trauma are easier to hypnotize because trauma tends to cause dissociation, which is a very similar phenomenon to hypnosis. But also, I guess for you, I would suspect that the reason you can be hypnotized is a part that's afraid of it. Yeah, probably. Yeah, I've definitely, you know, like when you're talking about how for you, meta meditation came very naturally, you know. Yeah, for me, feeling feeling love is very unnatural. What do you how do you work with somebody who who who who says, you know, that that's the case for themselves? Yeah, that's that's actually very common. And I work with quite a few people with that kind of issue, but it's really it depends on the person, like, yes, there's a part. It may be a part that's not fond of feeling love or that some people have parts that don't like any positive emotions, but it's really it's not like it's not the same thing. For example, some people have parts that are opposed to this because they fear that the good emotion is going to be taken away. Well, some some parts don't fear this. They just don't want such an emotion there in the first place. So how do you how do you work with somebody to get to these parts? Like because I mean, if you if you ask me right now, like, what is that? I don't I don't know. I don't I don't know how to I don't know how to find these parts of myself to me. I'm just I'm just Luke. Yeah. What kind of emotions do you sense in your body such as do you sense anxiety or nervousness that's physical? Not not not very much. No. I don't I don't fear or something like that in your body in any way. Yeah, sometimes I sense anger. I'm not feeling angry right now. But yeah, there are definitely times when I get upset. How would you describe that feeling? I would say that it's probably just like strong sensation powerful, maybe kind of heated, largely in the chest and in the rest of the body as well, I guess. You know, radiating out out to the the arms and the hands. Yeah, actually, I actually had so in your in your book, you mentioned, you know, lots and lots of meditation techniques and you talk a fair amount about Daniel Ingram's mastering the core teachings of the Buddha. So for me in 2015 was the first time that I ever went to I went I went to the Goinka Center in Dallas or just outside of Dallas, Texas. And I stayed there for several months. I wound up in the in that first year I I sat three courses and I served three courses and during some of the periods when I was serving somebody that I talked with told me about the Daniel Ingram book. But so I sat. I sat a course served to sat another one. Then I left for a little while and then I came back. And the next time I sat, of course, after I came back, I had I had gone off was visiting an old girlfriend back in Virginia and made plans to go see a mutual friend of ours to have dinner. But she canceled. And my my my ex Christina she's like, I'm so sorry, Luke. It's terrible that this happened. I feel so bad for you. And I really I I felt I didn't feel anything about it. You know, I was like, it's okay. You know, like, I don't feel upset. And then when I went back to go to that retreat a week later, during the retreat, it was on, I don't know, you know, day five or six or something during lunch that I've just start crying. And I realized that I feel really sad about it. And then a couple of days later, then like I'm laying in my room in the afternoon and I start to feel just like in the center of my forehead just like fire kind of almost like shooting out of it. And I really kind of become angry. Actually, in your book as well, you know, you talk about arising and passing events. And I think I had I had a really powerful arising and passing that happened to me in 2020. And then after that, in the in the months unfolding afterwards, then there was there was a specific event that really kind of like caused the volcano to erupt. And then and then I just was just blasting anger for for a while. It was really destabilizing for everyone around me and led to me winding up leaving the community that I was in because I just wasn't. I wasn't a fit community member anymore. Yeah, it's very common with trauma to have parts that are either like exiling other parts or even completely disassociating them. So I've talked to a lot of people who say that they don't have any anger. They are like, I'm just not an angry person. I don't have any anger. And I always tell them that, yeah, I'm pretty sure that you will discover a whole bunch of anger somewhere underneath. And yeah, some of them have come back to me and say like, yeah, I did discover a lot of anger buried inside me. Yeah, yeah, definitely. I mean, it's I've lived it. I know what it's like, you know, like when you're in just like that daily showing up way of being, you know, just functioning in the world being who you know yourself to be. Yeah, you know, like things don't, things don't seem to make you angry and right because that part of yours, that part of yourself is dissociated. So you don't, you don't, you don't get in contact with it because you're trying to protect yourself from your anger, I guess. But yeah, when it, when it comes back, man, it can be, it can come back in a, in a, in a really big way. Yeah. And if you, if you have like a part with the, like a moderate level of anger, you could use it as a gateway to IFS. For example, if you feel moderately angry at someone, you could try to think about that anger and bring it up and concentrate on the bodily feelings. Like, okay, I feel the anger here. And what does it really feel like in my body? Is it heavy or dense or does it look like something? And you can, you can try to ask the anger questions. Like, hey, why are you so angry? What would happen if you weren't angry? If you managed to get any answers, then you're already doing IFS. So you talk about, in, in, in the book, when you talk about IFS and, and these parts, you know, it sounds like sometimes people can just have some pretty radical kind of shifts in their lives, like burdens just being dropped or, you know, like complex neuroses just kind of disappearing after a single session. Can you, can you point to any specific cases of, of how that works and what's happened in your experience? I would say that my own experience has more being like a more fragile progress. I used to do IFS every week for a few years and it felt like pretty much every week I healed something, but it wasn't necessarily like a big issue. But sometimes I've guided people that have had big shifts even in one session. But of course, it's not always the first session. Sometimes it's the first session and sometimes someone knows this is very mild changes in the first session. And the number 11 is like, wow, my anxiety is gone. Okay. Yeah, that makes sense. Of course, it's, it's very often when there's something like the person feel like, oh my God, all my lifelong anxiety is gone. Then a week later they might discover that yes, this part of the anxiety is gone, but I also have two other anxiety parts. Right. So in general, if there is like a very deep issue like anxiety or depression or addiction, it's usually going to be a whole bunch of parts. But of course, if you have for example three major anxiety parts and you manage to heal one, it might already mean that you have half of the amount of anxiety that you had before, which obviously would be huge. Yeah, yeah, absolutely. So I'm curious, going back kind of to your personal timeline of things happening now in the book you talk about at points anyway, you kind of you point to your own awakening, like when you experienced second path maybe when when when did that happen for you and how much of that was meditation related versus how much of that was IFS related? How would you, how would you explain that? I think it's kind of hard to say what is what because I have done so many different things and often at the same time. I can say that the my first path was probably all thanks to meditation because it was like around the same time when I first discovered IFS. So I don't think it was really related to that. But my third path experience actually happened in an IFS session and it was super, super intense and quite interesting because it felt like I was in communication with God, which is not, you know, like your typical Buddhist enlightenment experience. But it was like, it felt like it feels kind of bizarre to talk about it because it felt like God was forgiving me for everything that doesn't sound Buddhist at all. That sounds very Christian and I don't even have a Christian background. I'm from a very, very secular family, but it felt like God was forgiving me for everything. It was super deep and intense and afterwards it really felt like everything was made of love in a very powerful way. So is that, is third path your level of attainment or have you, have you crossed the fourth path as well or you are a hun? I have crossed the fourth path, but it feels like, it feels to me like a bit silly to even talk about it because people make it, make it out as it's a huge thing, but to me it wasn't a huge thing. Well, you know, I want to say here is somebody who has definitely had an arising and passing away and I don't know about stream entry. You point to it in your book where a lot of people may have experienced stream entry and not even be aware of it. So maybe I'm one of those, I don't know, but definitely not having gotten to second path and spending a lot of time, you know, not being anywhere near where you are. It doesn't seem like such a small thing to me. Yeah, but it's, it's really like compared to how people view it because many people really do think that it will end all suffering and it will like you will have some kind of perfect wisdom. You will have no attachment. You will have no craving. And of course there are people who do believe that this kind of enlightenment exists. Perhaps it does, but people who live in our current society who do consider themselves enlightened or others consider them enlightened. They still have suffering, craving and attachment. So yeah, it feels completely ridiculous. I could say that I'm enlightened, but it just feels like such a funny word. And for example, Daniel Ingram, he has written on the cover of his book that he's an hour hunt. And to me it feels very funny, not because it's kind of bragging to put it on the cover, but it because it's just, I don't know. I thought it would be a bigger deal. Right. Yeah, I mean, I don't know what your thought is about it, but to me, it seems like enlightenment is really just something that ought to just happen to every healthy human. It seems like it's just part of human development. It's wired into our systems. It's just a matter of the right conditions being in place for it to happen. What do you think about that? Yeah, I guess that's an interesting idea. And of course, there are people who, for example, believe that the human kind is evolving into a more spiritual direction and like more and more people will be enlightened and things like this. And of course, then you can always, I was like, well, why aren't people just born enlightened? Why do we have to develop this sense of self that's not needed? Especially if you do believe that everything happens for a reason and things like that, then it's really like, why do we have to have this thing called self? Yeah, I mean, I don't know. To me, it's kind of like a bicycle, right? Like for a little kid, the bicycle is going to have the training wheels because they need the training wheels to learn how to find that balance so that they can ride a bicycle without training wheels. And maybe the sense of self that we develop as children, those are the training wheels that we need for a while before we can drop them and then live in this other way without it. I once found a very interesting paper on developmental psychology, which was about like how the self develops in childhood in relation to Buddhist stuff. And I was like, OK, this is a great paper. And then I lost it and I have never been able to find it again. Oh, that's too bad. Yeah, that's really bad because I really would have like decided in my book. Have you read much of Karl Rogers? I don't know if he talks about the same kinds of things. I came across one of his books and I'd never heard of him. And I'm like, oh, this feels like it's an important book. And then I never actually read it. But I did see other people referring to it as well. Yeah, I haven't really read anything from him. But in general, like the idea of self, because it can refer to so many different things. And I guess it's, yeah, it's inevitable that as a baby, you need to develop some sense of self that's like you're distinct from your mom and that kind of things. But it's still because the self contains several components. And some of them just don't don't really seem necessary to me in the first place. But of course, I'm no developmental psychologist. So maybe I'm wrong. Yeah, I was looking it up. The name of the book is called on becoming a person. And yeah, I don't know. It's a book that I probably ought to read, but I haven't read it. But yeah, I don't know. Again, just to me, it seems like, yeah, maybe, maybe an enlightened being is what like a full, a fully developed person is, you know, like naturally intended to be, but, you know, a lot of people get thwarted along the way because of, you know, inherited trauma, unhealthy family dynamics, lack of social cohesion, poverty, illness, et cetera, et cetera, that can kind of block them from ever finding the safety that's necessary to let those parts resolve. Yeah, I think it's a very complicated issue because there are some people who do manage to get enlightened, even though they still have a lot of trauma. And the answer is all in a situation where the trauma really like everything comes back at once. And then they spent years healing the trauma. Yeah. My, my own experience is also a bit different. And like from, like I said, I feel like enlightenment is not a very big thing. And most people I know who are enlightened are also like, yeah, it's, it's not such a big thing. And that's why they don't really like the word. But it also, most of the people I know who have had like a very advanced spiritual journey, they had a lot of trauma to begin with. So when they, for example, say that I feel spirituality changed my life or something like that, they usually refer to trauma healing and not like not having a sense of self. Yeah. So if enlightenment is not a big deal, then, then, then what's the big deal? You know, you've got a whole book here about loving awakening. So what, what, what, what, what, what is the big deal about, about that? Yeah. I mean, like, for example, we were talking about your parts and you have said that you have had difficulty feeling emotions. So for example, if you got to a place where you were like really in touch with your emotions, for example, you could feel anger, but it would never boil off. But it was like a healthy anger that enables you to set boundaries and things like that. And you could really feel like you could feel love very easily and things like that. Wouldn't that, that'd be a huge deal for you. Yeah. Yeah. That would be, that would be good. I mean, if you were able to reach that state, you were, you would probably be like, wow, this is amazing. And then if you reached Buddhist enlightenment after that, you might be like, okay, this is pretty good, but I still feel like the other stuff was more important. Right. Yeah. I feel like for me, I don't want to have to choose between just those or the other. Like I kind of, I want, I want, I want all of it. Yeah. Yeah. But it's definitely like interesting that when people talk about the benefits of enlightenment or spiritual practice, very often the main stuff they talk about is trauma healing. And it's, it's kind of interesting because yeah, we mentioned the rising and passing away, which is a stage that if you practice meditation, you will enter this often quite profound stage. Afterwards, there is no going back. So, but you can also end up in a rising and passing away even if you don't meditate. So it's quite possible that if someone does, for example, somatic trauma work, but no meditation, they would also cross AMP and they would be on the spiritual path, whether they want or not. I mean, for me, I meditated way more and way more regularly before my AMP. And since my AMP, you know, like, yeah, I'll still meditate, but I don't, I don't, I don't work at it the way that I used to anywhere near as much. Which might have something to do with the dark night. Oh yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I went, I went really after the whole anger bubbling out and exploding out kind of thing for a while there. Then yeah, I, I, I collapsed into myself pretty hard and have been kind of slow to try to get back on the path meditation wise because yeah, I, you know, I'm, I'm, I'm in no rush to, to, to get to the, to the big scary places anymore. Yeah. But like I talked about in my book, it's so common for people to have anti meditation parts and anti healing parts and they sometimes just say what they want. Sometimes they say don't meditate because scary stuff could happen, but they something completely different. Like you should rather focus on something more productive. Yeah. Well, for me at this point, I'm, I'm, uh, I'm in meditation or not meditation. I'm in massage school. So I want to be able to work doing body work and hopefully once I'm in that lifestyle then, you know, having the, having the time available to, to do yoga and meditate and just have less background stress in my life, but still be able to pay all the bills and things will make it all a little bit more integrated for me personally. I don't know. So in your, in your book, the parts that I didn't get to, uh, when I was reading it last night, you, you also, you mentioned, um, uh, so yeah, I didn't get into somatic healing, Alexander technique. I have actually you, so you've got Felden Christ here, Felden Christ is actually what triggered my A and P. So I, I had gone, I had gone on like a personal retreat. It was a dark retreat. It was like, I, I talked to Daniel Ingram about it like a year later and he said that I probably got into like seconds of post and a genre territory. Uh, and then I decided like, okay, I'm, I, I, I, it was a big aha kind of mourning for me. And I was like, okay, I need to stop doing this until I've integrated what I've learned here such that I could get here without being in this level of intensity. And then, um, yeah. And then a couple months later, I went to a guy for Felden Christ session and like while he's like working on my body, it literally felt like he was untying straps on the suit of armor on my body. I woke up the next morning. I could feel, you know, like fine muscle movements while I was walking in like my, my basically, yeah, like my, my, my awareness was heightened to like what felt like day nine level of vipassana retreat kind of awareness stages. And then I went to just like lay down for a nap. And instead of taking a nap, it felt like my ego just like fell off of my body. And the love of Christ was just a radiating energy just shimmering throughout all of my being. And then it only lasted a couple of seconds, but it was like a holy, holy crap kind of kind of moment. And for a while, I didn't know if maybe that was stream entry, but then later on I talked to Daniel and he was like, yeah, no. Stream entry doesn't usually have all that energy type stuff. That definitely sounds like a, like an arising and passing away event. That's super fascinating to me because in my book, I write that I feel like fell in Christ is like a cross between Alexander technique and vipassana. Okay. All right. Yeah. Well, yeah. I mean, and that was from like a direct, it was like a 90 minute session hands on where the teacher, you know, where the practitioner was like doing body manipulation stuff. I had also been in classes where he would guide you through, you know, just like laying on the floor and doing your own like micro-emotion kind of, you know, realignment stuff. So yeah, I can see where the vipassana element of a felt in Christ would apply because it is very much about just like tuning your awareness to just small parts of your body as you move them to kind of like recalibrate your muscle movements and things. Yeah. So what is Alexander method? Alexander technique. It's a bit similar to felt in Christ, but it's kind of more like like to sell felt in Christ. It's often about micro-emotion. You try to move your body in a very small area, the smallest amount possible while Alexander technique is more like whole body or large areas of the body oriented, for example, that you attempt to lengthen your body, but without moving, you just think to your body, you send an intention for your body to kind of lengthen. Okay. Yeah. And this, to me, this is also making me think of yoga knee-dra, which you mentioned in the book in a different part where, you know, I've done yoga knee-dra, but I've also found it to be kind of challenging because like, if I want to go to sleep and I do yoga knee-dra first, then I might be done with the yoga knee-dra and then I'm just like, shit, now I can't go to sleep at all. I'm like all the way awake again. Yeah. Alexander technique has multiple aspects and some of them don't really have anything to do with movement or it's pretty indirect. And for example, you might also be playing the piano and think to yourself, I'm not playing the piano, which sounds a bit like well, you're lying to yourself, but this is also in a sense a bit similar to the persona, not the aspects where you like observe stuff, but you try to eradicate like reactions to things. How do you... I'm going to start playing the piano. Your body might like tense up and assume like this piano player position, which is probably helping. Yeah. Okay. So how are you playing the piano and not playing the piano? Does it have something to do with the sense of self thing that you're talking about? If you're a professional musician, you don't think when you're playing. You don't think like, I'm pressing the G, I'm hitting the A. You don't think like that. You can't play music like that. You can't play sports like that. You can't dance like that because that kind of stuff works with muscle memory and it works from kind of like a flow state. If you try to do it with your thinking brain, you will miserably fail. Okay. Right. It is definitely related to like not having a sense of self. Yeah. Once you're... Once your body and your mind is trained in how to do the thing, then the doing of the thing doesn't require the same level of self-awareness, I guess, in order... If you want to do the thing well, then you've got to kind of stop micromanaging what you're doing and just let the doing happen. Is that what you're saying? Yeah. For example, one Alexander Technique book I read there was... the writer of the book who was trying to his or her son to play tennis or... No, it wasn't tennis, but a ball game. And the kid couldn't hit the ball because they were focused on like, okay, the ball is coming. How do I hit the ball? Where do I place my hand? And that doesn't work. You can only hit the ball with like intuition or something like that. So what about that and the Alexander method, that kind of falls under the... That falls under like the somatic section of your book. What else would you say about that part with movement and touch and somatic practices? The main part of main section on somatics in my book is it's basically about somatic experiencing, but somatic experiencing happens to be a trademark trauma therapy. And I have kind of developed my own version of it. So to not mess around with the trademark I just call it somatic work. Or okay. Well, dang, I wish I had read that part already. I definitely want to finish the book because there's so on Twitter, I don't know if he's a mutual that you and I both share. There's a guy out there named Cuphead who is really big into genre practice. And apparently he's one of those people for whom it came very naturally. And I'm one of those people who when I saw how naturally it came for him, I sent him a message and I'm like, how much trauma have you had in your life? And he was like, yeah, not much, not really. And I'm like, yeah, I would love to just like enter the genre as the way that you do and talk about this blissful experience. But I've got blocks, man. It's not easy to feel as good as you feel for somebody who's been through what I've been through. Yeah, though on the other hand, I would also if people say they don't have a lot of trauma, it's not always true. But I do have some friends who are very severe trauma such as dissociative identity disorder and they have had very a very easy time with the genus. So I think it's not really so much about like the amount of trauma or your trauma load. It's about whether you have parts that are specifically against the genus. Okay. Okay. And then and then after so the so the somatic stuff is to help with resolving the trauma. Especially I feel like the somatic stuff would be particularly helpful for you because it's very good for anger. Like you can work on anger with IFS but IFS is generally a bit more helpful for parts that are afraid and just in general like parts is you can comfort and if also in IFS you should be in self so in a state that you're not blended with a part. If you feel enraged you can do IFS unless you like manage to step out of the rage. But you can do somatic work even if you feel angry. Okay. And there were like two basic approaches to my implementation of somatic work. And one is like kind of like physically modifying the anger. For example if your anger was like mold and block of lava in your chest or something you could get the lava flow throughout your body or you could try to adjust this temperature or you can see if it could like light a huge flame or something like that or Is that where it starts to cross into the imaginal practices or I would say that like yeah so many of the experiences is largely an imaginal practice. It's basically in my book they are divided into two but they are not really different things. And yeah and especially the other this was one approach which is you could also you could also use a more narrative approach which is more similar to for example shamanic journeys. And this would be trying to do something with the anger for example if you are angry at the particular person you could ask the part if it wants you to turn into a giant bear and tear apart this person. Yeah I've in my Reiki training included shamanic practices so like my teacher she considers like a shamanic Reiki practitioner and I have my own hand drum and I've been able to guide people on shamanic journeys but for me to actually get into for me to actually get into like an imaginal practice is very it's not it doesn't come it doesn't come naturally for me to get into like that imaginal state and even if I can get in there I kind of like with the hypnosis thing you know like I come out of it really quickly and and just then back in the mundane I don't know yeah I guess maybe some part of me doesn't want to get lost in that or I don't I don't even know how to describe it. Yeah it's definitely like drum journeys they're definitely it's a state of hypnosis a state of trance so it's not really surprising that if your parts are against hypnosis that they are not big fans of shamanic drumming either but it's also my book introduces another type of imaginal journey where you don't induce any sort of an altered state you don't use drumming or dancing or anything it's more like okay let's just see what's in my body Do you want to talk more about that? Sure it's really like all of this is related for example of course IFS is also for most people a form of imaginal practice because you are like seeing things that you're seeing raccoon parts or you're seeing all kinds of stuff that's not like on the level of physical reality you don't have a raccoon inside you and similarly somatic practice it also tends to work with parts so often it's like am I doing IFS or am I doing somatic experiencing or is this like a shamanic practice there's no distinction now I can't hear you sorry about that yeah no I was saying it's not one or the other because they all have similarities they work together kind of things yeah of course like one difference is that IFS has rules of some kind and the rules say that you should be in a state of self and then you look for parts and you interact with the parts and somatic work has rules like you tune into your body you find stuff in your body and you interact with it imaginal practice may also be more focused on like okay let's just imagine we are on a far away planet and let's go look what we'll find there and it also tends to have a more energetic aspect like it might be like okay let's tune into your heart chakra and IFS is not really about the chakra so much so how do you how do you know if you're in self because you're talking about I think you talked about like being in a blended state which I guess means just like you don't know the difference between yourself and your parts and things so for someone like me like how would I know whether I'm in myself or whether it's just a part pretending to be myself then you would see how you either react to another part or you can see how you react to another person if that reaction is some sort of like an open curiosity then you're in self but if you feel like I wish things were different I'm frustrated I'm anxious this part should have figured things out already I wish I wasn't so angry then you're not in self okay so we talked about some of the somatic practices and the imaginal practices and then you start to talk about art yeah that's something very important to me I'm a writer I'm a poet I'm a visual artist and in the last couple of years I also got more into music which is very scary because I've been writing for over 30 years I've been making art for over 20 years and with music it feels like everyone else has been doing it for decades except for me and I feel like these are all very connected and of course the connection gets much clearer if you think about imaginal practice because imaginal practice is kind of like art it's playing with images it's kind of like a visual poet being rendered in your mind yeah I mean I know for me when I think about it going on meditation retreats and things like that after after you get to a certain depth creativity feels more for me anyway I feel like there is a greater access to creativity when you kind of get past certain things but then once you get back into the mundane living and just surviving and paying the bills and coping mechanisms whatever your addictions are then that access to creativity kind of fades away again when I got the third path I wrote so much poetry I wrote hundreds of poems in a few months and the quality was pretty good I wrote a lot of crap but it wasn't like this extreme of consciousness that later makes no sense a lot of it was very good poetry because it felt like wow my brain can go to places I've never knew even existed yeah um you also you mentioned uh I think in the in the inner maybe in the energy section um talking about you talking like talking about genres and how uh some genres like maybe third fourth genre like can help with things like energy work and and you also in another part when you're talking about when you're doing parts work that you know and and I don't know if this is something that you're you can you can access now or not but you talk about like when you're when you're talking with a client or whatever about their parts that sometimes you know like you can feel you can feel their parts more clearly than they can and and may even like know like what that part is saying when they're still kind of in their own like murky blended awareness I don't know if you want to say anything about all of that yeah I mean about you I can say because one of the things that tends to come through the clearest is usually when people have suppressed anger like obviously I'm not saying that you're you can't have any suppressed anger in your body but it's like I'm not sensing any like anger that would like to like come out right now that's usually that's the one I sense especially when when I do IFS when people when there's like a part that has a lot of anger and it really wants to come out it feels very intense it feels is there anything about me that you can sense at this point well if you want I can try try it okay yeah it's I'm definitely not not sensing any any anger or anything like that right now it feels there's something like a little fear or self-consciousness or I'm not sure what's was the best neither one of those is quite right okay yeah I don't feel fearful I probably am you know because I'm trying to you know trying to do a good job interviewing you maybe there's some self-consciousness going on there it's it doesn't really it's kind of like maybe maybe like a part that's buried that you will fail or something like that but of course like if there's a very skeptical listener they may be like well that's not rocket science that they might feel self-conscious or scared that they will fail yeah yeah totally um so we've been going for about an hour now and let's see what else we talked a little bit about art and creative expression and then you've got a section on practicing in the world teachers mentors relationships and then shared practices and then you talk a little bit about the the dark side of of things so yeah what do you have to say about all that I think it's a very important aspect because a lot of spirituality books don't really discuss this and like when I was writing my book I was like okay I'm going to have this section on community I should probably read other people's books on the spiritual community and then I realized that I can't even name such books and it's like everyone who meditates like everyone can name like the most famous famous meditation books but most people can name any books on the spiritual community or like how to conduct interpersonal relationships in a spiritual way so yeah such books definitely exist but they are just not as well known but I think it is a very important aspect because most people are interacting with other people on a daily basis or at least very often so it is very important like if we can get to a perfect bliss or a perfect peace of mind while meditating but then we are shitty to other people then it's like that practice is not very helpful is it yeah right it's what's more important than the states is the traits right so like if you can't be a good person then what the hell good is your practice all about yeah not just like being not just about being a good person I mean you can also be a decent person by suppressing all your trauma and just going into a phone response and being like the nice guy who never gets angry and then just more like well this is a good person but your own experience is not going to be super nice so the optimal goal is that when you interact with other people their experience is nice and your own experience is nice right nice is not a good word because the point is not being nice because sometimes good interpersonal relationships means that people get super angry and triggered and hate each other and almost murder each other but don't right talking about the community part it made me think of you know in the in the Buddhist sutas where you know I think it's a story where somebody is asking Ananda about enlightenment and everything and Ananda says oh yeah well you know friendship is a big part of it friendship is like a good 50% of it and then he goes back and the Buddha says oh what did you tell that guy and he says oh yeah I told him that friendship and the Buddha says no no no no friendship is 100% of it if you're friends with me that's all you need kind of thing and yeah I mean and there's an article that I have you know in my archipelago of opened but unread tabs there's an article that I came across sometime in the past month or two that it talks about mental health and how um let's see it's pulling it up right now it's from the Boston review mental illness is not in your head you know like after decades of all of this study and stuff like really you know like it has way more to do with like your family your community your society like all of these things that are feeding into who you are because of external conditions you know whether or not you're mentally healthy on the inside really kind of happens as a result of all of these other things and so you know yeah I mean obviously you know meditation sitting with your eyes closed is something that happens alone but you know like integrating your life has everything to do with other people yeah basically the last chapters of my book they go into two some of the different areas of interpersonal relationships one is the general community like okay how do you have a wholesome spiritual friendships and what does it mean and the other part of it is actually meditation doesn't have to be mean sitting alone with your eyes closed because they're actually like yeah my book introduces a lot of techniques that are similar to meditation like IFS imaginal practice but they are also also forms of actual meditation like I talk about inside dialogue which is a form of mindfulness practice which happens in conversation so all of this that we've talked about it I don't know I mean I guess it ties back to the loving awareness right it ties back into like my I guess for the most important way to describe my worldview is that people are complex and complicated and if you think you're going to make yourself a good person by sitting with your eyes closed I mean that can definitely help but there's going to be a lot of other stuff that can also help and if you like use several different approaches to making yourself a better person or more enlightened or whatever it's going to work on much better so I mean I having only read about half of your book I mean wow it's a smorgasbord of like everything meditation why the the breadth of things that you touch on is really pretty impressive and obviously here in the second half a lot of it has to do with you know all of the stuff that we've just been discussing with somatics and imagination and community and expression and all of this stuff so it's a really I mean this book is a really robust journey through understanding and learning about you know psychological meditation spiritual creative things to really I guess kind of help a person become just healthier and more whole and yeah it's really great thanks I guess my approach is really like it's really 10 books in one book and of course sometimes it means that I can't go into full depth about everything because there are so many things but I think that this information dense approach is also helpful for people because I wanted to write the book because a lot of people aren't very good with reading books they may read one book per year so my goal was to write the book that even if you never read any other spiritual book or meditation book or IFS book you can just do this stuff yeah and I mean I definitely think that also you know because for me I'm very much the kind of person that you know if I'm reading a book and then it refers to something else then like if I find that interesting or you know just like I already trust this author enough that if they're pointing to something else then I want to go check that something else out I mean this book is a great kind of meta-reference to for anybody to find out a lot more information about a lot of different things thanks yeah so is there anything that you feel like I missed or didn't cover or that you want to include in the conversation I mean we I feel like we covered a lot of the book in just one hour great well it's been a lot of fun Maya to have this conversation and once I post this online in the notes on the episode I'll link to your web page and your YouTube and everything and so hopefully anybody who listens to this will be able to find your book and download it and really kind of dive in into the greater depth in the stuff that we've talked about so far yeah I hope so too thanks a lot thank you

So, you're Daniel Brotman. Yes. I'm Luke Jones, and this is our fun little conversation. We chatted almost four months ago now, I guess, before you have to go on your three-month – it was at Berry, Massachusetts. Yeah, Insight Meditation Society in Berry, Massachusetts. Yeah, and so you said you'd been on a retreat before this one? Oh, yeah, I've been on a handful of retreats. My first was in 2017, was about a week long. The following year, I did a 10-day, and then during COVID, I did a few self-retreats at home. In 2021 – I mean, we're still in COVID, but I've been inside my arm. In 2021, I did a three-week at IMS, and then this three-month is the most recent. So, and the retreat was, I'm guessing, was it – it was pretty much – it was like a Mahasi-style terravada instruction retreat. Was there like a specific focus, or how would they – how would they label the three-month retreat? Yeah, that's right. I mean, it's very, very open-ended, and I think there's – the most important thing about it is it's just a container to support you to practice for three months. So, people did a wide variety of practices. But in terms of instructions that were sort of offered in the first couple weeks in the mornings, they kind of slowly laid out different aspects of the Mahasi method, which I did use quite a bit. But I spent three weeks doing loving-kindness practice at one point. Some people spent the whole time doing Brahma Bihar practice or concentration practices or various things. So, yeah. Yeah. So, what was your – I guess, prior to the retreat – sorry, hold on. Prior to the retreat, what was kind of your inspiration for doing the three-month retreat, and what expectations did you have of what your experience might be like or what you might get out of it? I had wanted to go on this retreat ever since my first retreat in 2017, when I – at the end of that retreat I heard that some people did this crazy thing of practicing for three months. And, you know, at the end of my first retreat, my first five days of retreat practice, that kind of solidified for me a feeling of like, oh, this is a huge mountain, and I will only benefit by continuing to climb it the rest of my life. Like, I really want to keep doing this practice. And so, on one level, even back then, I just had the feeling like, well, if I'm going to do this my whole life, you know, why not front load as much as I can and get, you know, as much of the benefits as soon as I can? So that's one of the reasons why I've always been attracted to the idea of doing such an extended retreat. Yeah, and I think as I did – so that was an idea from a long time ago. There eventually came a point when one of the times I did a self-retreat here at home, I practiced for seven or nine days or so, something like that, and at the end of the week, you know, it was a nice retreat. You know, seven days is an amazing opportunity to practice. But at that point, having done it several times, I felt like, hmm, it just feels like not that much, actually. I mean, it's a lot, but it felt like I'm just starting to get settled. And so that kind of gave me a feeling like maybe I'm at a point now where I would benefit or would be ready for a more extended time. And so it was nice that I was able to kind of do a short, long retreat, if you will, a year ago and do three weeks, which was a very different feeling of retreat than I had ever done before. It felt like, you know, I remember feeling like a week and a half into that retreat, feeling like, oh, I just live here now, you know, it's like there's so much more space as opposed to only a few days to practice and started to experience dynamics that I saw more on this longer retreat. So this, you know, time by the time, you know, there was a period about 10 days into this three month retreat where I had just spent like four or five days in some kind of turmoil about figuring out my sitting posture and should I be on another cushion or should I kneel on a bench or on a cushion or, you know, I was kind of all up in the air about that for a little while. And it kind of settled down and I ended up sitting in pretty much the exact same posture I started in. And but I remember thinking like, wow, it's been 10 days into this retreat. If this was the three week retreat, the retreat will be half over. But this retreat is like 84 days. So it's just starting. Yeah. Yeah, so that's a that's a bit of the story. Well, now, let me ask the because so I in my experience, I've mostly done like 10 day going to retreats. And I feel like kind of like what you're talking about with your, you know, with your seven day retreat, you know, it takes a few days, you know, to get comfortable with the environment and to really kind of get settled in yourself. So the really like the steam can kind of build up to a point where, you know, your, your, your meditation kind of really deepens. Was that did you feel like it took the same amount of time in the three month retreat to kind of find that homeostasis? Or did it take longer because you had more time? I mean, in some ways there's never any homeostasis. And that's what you're, you know, observing. Well, okay, I got it figured out. When I say homeostasis, I guess I just mean kind of like that, that like I'm settled with where I am feeling comfortable in the environment and really starting to see like the ripening of my mindfulness to where, you know, like, deeper sort of phenomena start to arise more abundantly because, you know, because I've cut down on my distractions or thoughts about the outside world. Yeah. Yeah, I've almost two conflicting thoughts. Like on the one hand, that was a process that was continually happening, like, you know, after that 10 day period just described, then I was like, okay, I'm more settled now. And then like I had a week of how we talked about how I was afraid of the tinnitus which we could go into but I had like a week of like a lot of struggle with that and then that kind of settled down and I started doing metapractice. And then I felt like, okay, well, now I've, it's been two and a half weeks, I'm doing my metapractice, you know, I did that for about three weeks. But then that was, you know, I had some difficulties and eventually I decided to switch back to doing just awareness practices, the postnatal practices. And so I remember feeling at week six, almost halfway through was like, oh, it took me like five weeks to really settle in. So and then, you know, and the practice just kept developing and every week was different in some ways. But on the other hand, you know, I knew I was really deep in the territory in the universe of consciousness by my experience going into consciousness before with the retreats and plant medicines but but there's also a sense in which like, I wasn't, I couldn't, you know, it's hard to get your bearings down there. And I didn't really know like, like, you know, part of the practice was working without like, is this is this working am I going deep and like, when you've been there for two months, like, is this special? Is this just how it is like, I don't even remember, you know, and it was such a boon, it was such a buoy to my faith at the end of the retreat when we started talking again. And I began to see my concentration, my samadhi start dissolving. And I began to see like, how much actual resolution like fine awareness I had of the very subtle movements of mind and very subtle emotional movements in the body was like, Oh, I was deeper than I realized. And now talking again, I can see that. Yeah. So I guess I do. I'm interested. Like, so you say, what, if you were to break things down chronologically, like, what was the structure of your retreat as you experienced it? Um, because you said you said for the first 10 days, you were kind of getting settled in. And then was it basically after that point, like you did the first 10 days just kind of being well, what was your practice for the first 10 days? Yeah, I mean, I can talk about, um, yeah, in the first 10 days, I was with the breath, and they started to experiment with using noting or what Shenzhen Yang calls labeling, but in Mahasi, they call it noting, just putting a word on your experience. And, um, with all the sense stores and, um, uh, there was, you know, I went into the retreat. This is, I think, another question of yours. I didn't circle back to yet, which was, I went into the retreat with as little expectations as possible. I mean, there's always expectations under the surface. Um, but I knew that, you know, feeding those expectations was not going to be conducive to practice. And so, um, did my best just to show up and like, I'm just here, I made it, and I'm just going to sit all day and whatever, you know, and walk and whatever, every sits a good sit. But after a week or so, you start, I started feeling like, well, this is a three month retreat, you know, like, maybe I could do something like maybe this is the retreat. I'll, I'll finally learn how to, you know, do John us or, or, you know, so there was some wrestling with that idea for some time. Um, and so I kind of described, you know, that I worked with tonight is for a while is really working with the aversion to the tonight is one thing I found helpful was noticing. Um, the tonight is pretty constant, but the aversion actually fluctuates. So I found that by, I, I started labeling how strong the aversion was on a scale of one to 10, just to point out just to help me see that the aversion wasn't always the same because the aversion is where the suffering is, you know, um, and doing much of practice for a long time and then the way my the pastina practice and my concentration practice developed over the final seven weeks. But also that's just kind of one one layer of parsing of like mapping out if that's a useful thing to do the retreat experience because there are also many other layers of like, well, I was starting to really get in touch with like, what is um, hatred is the translation. So I'm thinking about the three defilements as they're sometimes called or Key lesa's usually greed, hatred and delusion. But I think it's good to sometimes the English words have connotations that are narrower or broader Mr Mark. So getting to know these three elements of experience was another theme that kind of ran throughout the whole retreat in ways as well. Was it, was it after the initial 10 days that you then started the three weeks of metapractice or did that come later later on for you? I think it's probably in my journal. I think that was like two or two and a half weeks in that I started doing metapractice all day. So were you were you meeting with a teacher on a regular basis to just kind of compare notes and get advice or how did that work? Yeah. Yeah. So there were like five or six teachers in each in each six week session. So there was a change over at week after week six where some new yogis came some yogis left and new set of teachers came in. So in the. So yeah, everyone had two teachers they were working with. I got to work with Guy and Sally Armstrong in the first half and Bunty Buddha Rakita and Jill Shepherd in the second half. And the schedule worked out where usually every third day you would have a very short like 15 or 20 minutes one on one conversation alternating with those teachers sometimes every other day but usually every third day. Was that was that metapractice something that one of the teachers had recommended that you start doing at that point or was that just something that you kind of said hey this is what I'm starting to do now? A little bit of both. I was so I could I was having so much difficulty with the fear around the tinnitus and I didn't want to listen to it. I didn't want to not listen to it. I didn't I didn't I didn't really know how to practice I was like really going through a lot of self doubt and judgment and just feeling like I'm going to have to go home like I don't deserve to be here really kind of painful thoughts. So I was telling I think it was Sally and what she recommended was well probably it'll be better not to do something like choiceless attention where the mind is really easily going to get sucked into the aversion going to get sucked into the spiraling thoughts about it but choose something with a really strong anchor like give me attention something to do. So she suggested doing a body scan or doing metaphrases or doing compassion phrases. So I actually did compassion more or less for about a day phrases I was experimenting with some of those phrases and then I started to do an example of those phrases be. Well guy likes the phrase may I hold this experience with compassion Sally recommended things like may I be patient with myself may I be kind with myself may I meet this experience with compassion. I actually came around to compassion practice again towards the end of the retreat with some phrases that Jill Shepherd recommended which I'm delighted to share because they were so special and helpful for me. She developed this set of four compassion phrases see if I can remember I haven't done it in a few weeks. I'm aware of this pain I care about this pain may it release may I know peace and you can modify it for different people or you could say suffering instead of pain but the kind of kernels of those phrases form this like rhyming pair of couplets aware care release peace which was a really sweet way of just saying with those really simple. Simple movements of mind or simple invitations to be with suffering into to call upon compassion. So, how did you, I guess, you spoke about the tonight is some and the, I guess that coming to kind of the awareness that your, your like your reaction to it your hatred of it. If you want to put it that way was really kind of more causative of pain or suffering for you than the actual tonight itself. Yes, yeah. Because I don't, I would, yeah, well I would I would notice like how, how difficult it was to like it felt like the sound is like boring into my ear you know it feels like I can't concentrate I don't know what to concentrate on. And so I would call that like all the versions out like a seven right now it's like, you know, when the version gets really strong it starts to tip into like fear, you know, or like terror, it's like really really really strong. So that's like upper levels of the version chart, you know, but there were other times where I'd be like, oh it's like it's annoying I really don't like it. But like I'm not like freaking out right now it's like a four or five. You know, and then there were times where it's like, yeah, I mean I'd rather it's not be here, but I'm okay, you know, it's like a two or three. And then it's like, yeah, it's really not bothering me I mean I have a preference that I would still rather it go away so I'm not like at a zero. But but I'm not it's just I've you know it's okay and that's like a one and it might be a one in the morning and then two hours later it's a four or it's a six. And seeing that a few times helped me get through those times when the aversion was really strong and I think that started to break the cycle of it because I wasn't kind of I wasn't so afraid of the aversion. There wasn't so much aversion to the aversion if that makes sense. Yeah. So then it eventually became less of an issue although it was part of every day the rest of the retreat and there were times when the aversion would bubble up again, but never really as bad as that week or so period towards the beginning. Were there any other challenges that you mentioned the doubt and yeah the tinnitus were there any other particular challenges that you would say that you faced during the retreat? Yeah, I wish you would. Many boredom can be very difficult. It's surprising because you know it's like wow shame is like anything but shame like grief and like all these emotions I have the students who are all challenges. Grief can be so hard. Anger can be so hard. You know there are positive things too but since you asked about challenges but and sexual desires is a gigantic topic extremely difficult the pain of the desire but yeah towards the end there was a lot of like restlessness and like I remember getting to I was kind of keeping track. Maybe this was not the most skillful way to do it but I you know doing what I can but you know I was keeping track of the date and like okay we're on week two. Around week three we're on week four we're now in the second quarter of the 12 weeks you know okay we're in part two and so by the time we got to week 10. So the last three weeks 10, 11, 12 I was like all right here we are we're in the last quarter of the retreat home stretch almost done it's basically over and I was like wow it really doesn't seem to be over. There's a whole empty day ahead and there's another whole empty day ahead after that another whole empty day after that. So I had some like retreat senioritis you know a little bit around that time and ended up being I think a really fruitful time of practice because there's so many ways to come at boredom. One of my teachers should remember her I keep forgetting her last name Rebecca give a wonderful talk about boredom at one point but you know you can investigate the nature of boredom itself. But oftentimes that boredom is covering up like or that restlessness you know is covering up a really strong desire for sense gratification you know like I miss my computer I miss talking to people like you know it's like I want senses. I want sensory input to bring me pleasure and I'm not getting it and so I feel really bored because I'm unwilling to be with the relatively neutral or sometimes unpleasant nature of my experience. Or there's just a lot of like despair here I just feel like I am not good enough I can't do this this isn't working I don't know if this works for anybody this is all. Like this this the world is hopeless I'm hopeless I should have done more this kind of therapy or I should go to Brazil and do that plant medicine. I this wasn't right you know it's like despair like it's not working. And so that can be you know so it's like oh oh despair is here what is what's what is this like oh it's breaking up all these stories. Oh my god there's such sadness there's such a feeling of wanting to cry and then I do cry. So sometimes the boredom or restlessness is a marker of like something else is happening too. Yeah. So on the flip side of challenges how about rewards did you would you say that you experienced any genres while you were on the retreat. No I would not. John John is our I mean speaking of someone who's never been in the genre maybe I should just keep my mouth shut but just one thing I want to convey that I've heard which I think may be helpful if anyone hasn't heard this is that there are many different or there are at least three different that I've heard of systems of John and they are different in their methodology they are different in their depth. And so there's the I came a system which is what Lee Brazington teaches. There's the side of Pandita system which I was told is like somewhere in the middle kind of. And then there's the Park side a system which I'm told is based off of the Vesudi Maga which are supposedly the most like deep. What my teacher told me the other day about this is you know there's the real thicket of views and you know if you do the. If you do the Lee Brazington system the I came a system you might feel like well this is you know this is the natural way to do it and this aligns with the suit is in these ways and those other people are just getting lost and useless distractions of depth you know and the other people who go deeper might say well you know you're not really seeing the benefits here so this is all second hand knowledge I'm passing along but yeah so did you have nimitta or anything that you would that you could point to. You know I had a few interesting experiences at some times of some greater somebody like especially if I was lying down like a sense of the energy body kind of like spinning. Interestingly enough on the three week retreat that I did in 2021. I had an experience that might fall into that category where I was in a lot of concentration for a few days and I had like this sensation of light that came from kind of nowhere which I think is a pretty classic. Description but I don't know that didn't happen this whole time and I was meditating for three months so you know in some like don't get me wrong I'm fascinated I'm thirsty AF for these experiences like. Like it sounds cool as hell and like I hope my practice develops and I gained facility in all these really fascinating ways. But like the thing that I'm really interested in is that I learned to see greed hatred and delusion I mean that's not the only thing but like you know it's like it's like I so okay so your earlier question was like what what other goodness was there to be seen and like. Nothing was more gratifying than the last few days when we got to talk to people and it was like oh my God the heart is so open the heart just wants to love and connect and it's so easy it's so natural and. And there was this real. Seeing as I was speaking to people and in social situations for the first time in three months the very subtle ways in which there might be just like the littlest hint of and like very subtle very very very subtle. Hints of. Insecurity or generosity or envy or affection you know or you know sometimes. You know there weren't very many instances of like strong difficult emotions in those days there were strong positive emotions there was this really funny day it was the day we were going to start talking later that day. We were we had actually we had done like a little brief introduction to talking for like an hour and a half in a very structured way the previous evening and then the next morning. We're sitting in the morning meditation. And there's a you know a very different energy in the hall that morning because like oh my God we did you know and the fire goes off. Really loud so we all go outside it's December 4th or something quite cold in Massachusetts and we were all just like elated and I remember a lot of one thing I really noticed was like. During I paid a lot of attention to Vedana you know pleasant unpleasant story or neither and as I was outside and we were like. There were some people kind of starting to talk over you know not you know so I was outside. They did this like roll call to make sure everyone made it out of the building and I was just noticing because of my mood. At that point every cent store was pleasant the frigid cold was so pleasant the blaring fire alarm was really pleasant the sites you know like the thoughts. So that was beautiful. Yeah. What did you did you have any like transformative moments where they're where they're where there's some where there's some magic that happened. One moment that's coming to mind you know everyone says like it's not about the moments but like yeah it's fun to show. One moment and it's really fun stories that yeah yeah and they can be motivating in a way even though they can also tie us and not if we try too hard but I. Remember exactly the context but I think. I think maybe Jill Shepard wonderful teacher highly recommend checking out her talks on Darmacy and her website and stuff. I think she'd given a talk about right effort and you know I've been thinking about right effort here and there the whole retreat but something about her talk. You know when you've been practicing for such a long time these ideas can land in a different way. And I had an interview with her or a practice meeting they call them and. Yeah I remember exactly but I think I was able to share like I was feeling I was really seeing the story of like I'm not good enough like I like. Don't you know I feel like my practice is never good enough and. You know even though there can be a kind of one level the brain might know or the mind might know. Yeah that's just a story and you're doing fine just keep going you know there's no other input but yourself so that story can wear you down if you. So I remember what she said but somehow she kind of helped me relax a bit. And trust and so the next period after that I took a very leisurely stroll around the whole outside and. You know I kind of I didn't just like choose a narrow walking path but I just I just walked around the building and saw some really beautiful. I kind of appreciated every plant that I could see individually that kind of thing. And then I turned the corner around the back in the way leading towards the woods and the way the ground is there there's a bit of a hill leading upwards to the woods and the. I don't know what kind of trees there but the pine trees are so beautiful back there and they're really tall. Another favorite memory is seeing like the pine trees and the moon rising behind IMS and then the sunset on my right. But anyway this one time I turned the corner and I got this vision of the forest and it was like above me because I was at the bottom of this little hill. And I just saw these majestic trees this huge and the clear blue sky and I just like fell over crying with gratitude I was just so pulled over you know. It was a nice moment. Yeah. Yeah. So what what about your you know like you said that you know like I guess that the thing that you really felt like you got the most clarity on was you know hatred craving and delusion like how would you describe what you learned about those. They're. They're each a constellation of things so. So the Pali is loba for greed dosa for aversion or hatred and moha for delusion and I think it's useful. A lot of terms are useful to just use the Pali word if possible because it allows us to put a new specific context or connotation on that's not so like the English word hatred is like hatred is like an emotion. It's like a very specific thing but dosa is really like anything that has that quality of not wanting to accept what we are in contact with. So it can be hatred it can be anger it can be fear it can be criticism judgment of others judgment of ourselves. Boredom is actually a kind of aversion to neutral experience often. So you start to see that all these things have a similar taste. And. Just recognize them more you know or like shame like I had a lot of towards the end I started would just be doing walking meditation you know feeling whatever and like out of nowhere some memory pops up of like something I'm you know have done in the past that's really embarrassing. And it's like oh I don't want to touch that oh it's still there you know oh God. But you just learn to relax and like this is not hurting me I am hurting me by forcing you by thinking I have to get it away. We think that if we hate something enough it'll go away. And so then the flip side is Lobha greed which is not just any wanting there's there's there's such a thing as skillful desire born from wisdom born from compassion you know it's not suffering to. Like take care of your body or think it's a good I you know there's a million things that one does that aren't. Creating of suffering but it becomes suffering when there's this this attachment piece connected to desire so I won't be okay if I don't have. Such and such desire. And I guess that has different characters depending on like the object so like I mentioned sexual desires like really big there's just a huge amount of. You know at one point I. I realized it took me like eight or nine weeks to get to this point but I realized. I. If I just stop looking at other people. It's so much calmer. Because I'm not desiring them to know that they look at me here meditating. Like what are they doing I want to know I want to know something I want information or I want a pleasant sight if there's an attractive yogi around me or you know and or just lunch like. You know do I I want the there's so much desire when I'm hungry I'm spoiling food on pouring food on to my plate and then I finish and it's like that was too much food actually. So there are a lot of ways to practice generosity or renunciations like I actually don't need this thing that I think I need so bad and then seeing that there's less suffering there. And how about delusion. Delusion for me it's a little less. I mean in some ways I have ideas about it but I don't think I know it as well yet. As the other two. I will share a hilarious metaphor that was passed to us through some of our teachers but it comes from. Sayada. He says greed hatred and delusion are like a crime family and hatred and hatred and create or. Sorry craving and aversion or you know her words are like the thugs out in the street they're doing the dirty work but delusion is in the background like pulling the strings and running the show. Because the reason I mean that's the reason greed and hatred in the taravata understanding of enlightenment are. They weaken and then are uprooted before delusion is not uprooted until full awakening. So the reason we. Want things and the reason we don't want things is because we're confused about the nature of our own existence and we're confused about the nature of phenomena. We think our own existence contains a permanent solid self as you know to which things are happening. And so we think that. You know we take all these things personally we think they are indicative of what's happening to us in our story. And as to other objects we don't realize that they are impermanent. So we want pleasant things because we think you know maybe not consciously on the surface level of our mind but on some level there's this feeling like if I just had that I would be happy. And unpleasant things I think if this you know if this ache in my foot if that annoying person breathing next to me would just go away then I would be happy. And we don't realize that all of these things are of course changing. There's a great story which I'll share from a friend of mine told me amazing guy this was the second time doing the three month retreat. And he said he said he was telling me he actually experienced a lot of neutral Vedana much of the retreat which I was like wow sounds great roller coaster for me but. But sometimes neutral Vedana gives rise to boredom right so he said he was doing walking meditation before dinner once and he started to notice the mind was like. Oh there's going to be soup soon they always serve soup at dinner soup's going to be really good. Oh I can't wait I can't wait to pour that soup in and you know and then his mind started to spin these stories like oh there's going to be. Beautiful women serving me the soup and you know this is our minds are shameless you know they don't they don't know that we're feminist you know they just you know whatever. And so. And so he was just seeing this story get like bigger and bigger and more elaborate and just trying to be aware of like wow the mind is like obsessed with this soup. So then the lunch the dinner bell rings walks to the meditation to the to the cafeteria lunch room dining room they call it. He tries to be really mindful as he's pouring the soup into the bowl sits down he's like OK mindfulness on high alert this is it. I'm like with the soup in his mouth he was like there was like half a second of pleasant Vedana and then it went away and that was it. All that build up for just a little moment of pleasure. Yeah yeah the mind thought you know it's going to make me so happy and it made him happy for half a second. Yeah I guess there's a phrase desire is a liar desire lies about how things are going to actually play out. In my in my own experience I found that you know with with the trifecta of greed diversion and delusion that the way that it kind of. Sorry so I was I was in a I was doing like a self dark retreat and I was experiencing the light as almost like like I had like a triangle in my mind's eye and the light kept kind of moving like a like a wormhole like at the beginning of Doctor Who where you're just kind of bouncing from side to side and up and down and everything. And I came to realize after a little while that I'm that my the way that I'm thinking is causing the navigation. So when I'm thinking about something that I'm liking that I'm more kind of pulling off in one direction and when I'm thinking about things that I don't like that I'm pulling off in this other direction. But the whole time like it constantly kept like feeling like there was this this downwards pole and and and eventually I may have kind. I definitely feel like I entered first genre territory and then there was a point where and I talked with Daniel Ingram afterwards and he said oh yeah that was probably second second. Where the aha moment for me was realizing that the sense of I that I have that is directing the orientation of my mind was actually causing that downwards pole. So for me to have a sense of control was what was actually causing me to be unbalanced. Yeah. So I guess like there's something in that like and probably this ties in with all of those open awareness practices. Like once you learn how to set your ego well to the side so that you don't think that you're driving your mind anymore then that's where the delusion can kind of start to diminish significantly. Yeah and you're not the one who does it. You don't you don't get rid of the delusion you know you just stop like holding on to it. Yeah. To me it was definitely something about like if I can stop driving my mind and let it be then it can really center in its own way. I don't know if that if that rings rings true to you or to your experience at all. Yeah. Just thinking. In some ways there's a balance between you know deciding am I am I doing some technique right now or not. But but even if even if I guess for me what I found is like now in my daily practice I usually start with like no technique at all other than just kind of feeling the body and you know it takes. Like a good 30 minutes or so before I feel like the body is calm enough in the mind has settled on its own that I can introduce a little bit of OK let's maybe let's come to a more refined and stable awareness on a smaller objects like the breath of the nose for example. But that is coming from a place of it's not coming from a place of like I got to get it I'm doing it I'm going to really get it this time. It's more coming from a place of wisdom like I see the conditions are now here such that this is possible. Therefore I can make the determination to do it rather than I really want this so I'm going to try so hard and like really go for it. Does that seem related to the experience you were discussing. Well I mean I think I think what I'm hearing you saying is that like I guess and maybe this is something that you learn through the time that you spent during this retreat saying that you know like you're learning your own intuitive body of like when the practice becomes available so that you can practice it more effectively. Yeah. Yeah. And a lot of times I would dial the effort way back. You know I had I was very happy with my window in my room because it faced the forest. So I would call that tree TV and sometimes sometimes you just got to lay in bed and watch the trees and that's your meditation for an hour. Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. I you know in in in that retreat that I did I was really only I was really only in like a seated meditative posture for four hours out of the day and the rest of the time I was just kind of lounging in bed or maybe you know doing some stretching or some yoga at times but it was really like OK I'm I'm I'm or just we're just sleeping. I'm just sleeping as much as as much as I could tolerate rest. It was really the focus was like yes and relax and like and putting the resting first so that I don't know. Yeah. And then the practice of meditation really you know it was funny because like the first time I I really had like first and possibly only time I ever had like really clear nimitta. My mind was actually kind of in a place of like yeah whatever like I'm probably just having a delusion right now. You know it was it was you know and you hear I've heard enough people say when you know like when something like that starts to arise they get excited me. Right. You know like they mentally like they grab for it. Right. They grab for it then it runs away but for me it was very much like yeah whatever you know I'll believe it if I see it kind of thing even though I was in the process of seeing it. Right. It was very much kind of standoffish about the experience in in its own moment and then afterwards then you know then then the pity started to arise and and and all of the feelings of just like joy and rapture and all that kind of stuff. And so it was very much just kind of it was just kind of happening to me more than you know definitely more than me knowing what I was doing and causing it to arise. And and yeah like that whole being able to just lay back and stare out the window and just just relax or not even maybe stare out the window but just look out the way you know just yeah yeah like having having that relaxation piece is a big a big key I think to letting the mind learn how to settle itself. One of my teachers calls that useless gazing. Just do some useless. You're not allowed to meditate. That's too much just useless gazing. But I think we're talking about two. Oh sorry. Oh well I was going to say the other thing that came to mind when you were talking before it was the. I don't know how much you've listened to any of. Ajahn Jeff talks but haven't yet. Okay so he's he's he's like the the head monk of the. Metaphorist down in the San Diego area and the access to insight if you know access to insight he's the guy who did like most of the translations of all of those suitors. Dama talks dot org like he's the he's the guy that you hear give all of those talks and when he talks when he talks about meditation a lot of times what one of the things that he'll point to is. You really have to learn how to turn the volume down on your mind like you don't want to be too sharp. You don't want to be dull but you also don't want to be sharp you want to find the happy middle place in your mind so that you're not laser focused on everything all of the time. You really want to kind of like you want to find your five and kind of get your mind to like learn how to stay there the most so that your awareness is soft without being dull but alert without being sharp. Makes sense. Yeah, yeah, it's definitely about. Did you did you find yourself having that experience at any point where you, you know, somewhere between like hyper vigilance and torpor, where you're like, Oh, this is a really comfortable medium place for me to just be aware. Yeah, definitely. It comes and goes and part of the art is being okay when it's not there and and not holding on when it is there. But there's a real joy when there's that like, like in one sense it's like a middle ground, but it doesn't feel a middle path. Yeah, yeah, yeah, it doesn't feel so like it's just a spectrum it feels like there's actually like your midway between relaxation and tension. It's more like as you know, it's more like there's so much relaxation and there's so much alertness. And that's just like a really joyful like what that leads to is peace. That's like it's like a really peaceful way. It's like peaceful and awake. And yeah, it's a lovely state when it comes. So having done this three month retreat. What has your experience and you mentioned, you know, going into the period of returning to talking. Oh, here's a question I wanted to ask. And so you were talking about like, you're talking about like feeling annoyance about the breath of another person or the, you know, thoughts about people around you and all of that kind of thing. Did you find that when your mind shifted into that kind of like critical or judgmental state or whatever about the conditions around you? Did you feel like you observed like an appreciable difference in the level of mindfulness that you had when that sort of discursive thought would arise? Like towards the end of the retreat and after we started talking. Sure. Yeah, or whenever or just whenever. Yeah, I mean my sensitivity to all these sorts of things was heightened. Absolutely. Yeah. And it's just about awareness. It's like it's so simple like so the example that just came to mind was my yogi job was cleaning the floor of the part of the dorm that I lived in. So I would always sweep the floor and then there's a little mop thing and I would sweep the stairs. And there was one guy who sort of routinely would walk in, he would wear his same shoes he was wearing outside when it was raining, might track some leaves, you know. And so I started to notice like, man, why doesn't he know I'm like, I'm here cleaning the floors like of course I'm cleaning the floors because floors get dirty, you know, it's like not a problem really. But this is the kind of thing the mind might start to latch onto and spin on. And so eventually I noticed boy, there's really a pattern here forming of like this like this like critical perception of this person. And and it's just not baked in to the moment I'm adding it to the moment. And I can make use of some skillful means to let go if it's not so easy to let go. So so that's what I did I you know when I noticed this happening I started to be like, man, this guy like, he's like 50 or 60. He's here meditating for three months. How many people do I know that are willing to meditate for three months? That's amazing. Like, this is one of the coolest people I've ever been around in my life. This is amazing. This guy is so great. You know, and it would really help me let go. And it's just a difference of noticing. Like if I'm just in the story of like, I'm sweeping and he's making the floor dirty. There's no awareness that like suffering is happening. And but the stepping out of the story can be very light. And that's one of the kind of maneuvers that's been practiced so many times that I've seen even happening now after retreat. Sometimes it's like, I'm suffering and I notice and I realize I'm, you know, I can't snap my fingers and stop suffering completely all of the time. But I can like, I can change my course heading once I've seen what's happening. So how long was the period when you like between when everybody started speaking and when the retreat. Let's see. We left on Tuesday, midday. I think we spoke. We had like an hour or an hour and a half session Sunday night. No, Saturday. Yeah. So I think it was Saturday night actually. So just a short session where we did some of a practice called insight dialogue something another thing. Jill Shepherd leads like a structured way of speaking very interesting reentry into speaking. And then the next day was there was some structured sections and more a lot of open time. So kind of like two and a half ish full days of speaking before we last in that two and a half days of speaking. Do you feel like there were any particular insights that arose from you that came from the conversations plus your heightened state of awareness after three months of practice? Yeah, it was like, I mean, I spoke to a few of them already about just like, oh my God, my heart is so open. Oh my God, there's so much clarity about what's happening. There was also like seeing the dissolution of Samadhi because the conditions changed so radically. And noticing that I'm not noticing as much as I was before, almost a feeling like I was really seeing reality like in contact with reality. And as the kind of fuzz of the mind starts to build up because there's social interactions happening. There's this brand new schedule today and I felt like I was losing touch with reality in a sense like kind of almost going into the darkness really losing resolution, which was like sad, but also very interesting. And then, yeah, I mean, I just learned so much from talking to people hearing about other people's experiences on the retreat their experiences in their lives as practitioners and, oh my God, you couldn't stop singing Mario theme music to like I thought I was the only one. It's a silly example but like, yeah, conversations things as mundane as that to like, there was one night. I was so tired but like, it just felt so good to keep talking to people. I mean, this is also a big learning of that time was like, oh my God, there's such a greed, a desire around I have to talk to a FOMO like I can't miss out on talking to anyone have to be talking all day. So noticing that unwillingness to let go, but also like it was fucking worth it because just everyone is like the biggest arm and you've met in your life, and everyone's mind is like so clear and sharp and everyone's so full of joy. There was one night. I think I was talking until two in the morning, which just because like we were having these amazing conversations about, you know, the aggregates and non duality and whatever all kinds of Dharma nerd stuff. Yeah. Did you did you have any? Have you ever had any non dual experiences? Did you have any non dual experiences during your three months? I mean, if it's like a really big clear fireworksy thing, I guess not. But I think anytime that you have less and less anytime the sense of self is noticeably less present, it's like thinner than you're closer to a non dual understanding. So I think, yeah, the whole experience was moving along that pendulum. So now that you have had a few weeks away from it, how, you know, I've asked you about experiences and states and things, how, how do you feel like you have been transformed traits wise by by having had your three month retreat? Well, there's there's some things I've pointed to already like this. Greater noticing of when suffering is happening and greater ability to let go of the causes and seeing the causes. A friend of mine has said a wonderful phrase. This is an example of something I learned in those last days. She said, suffering is the best mindfulness spell, which I absolutely love. Nothing will wake you up like, like suffering. And if you ignore suffering long enough, eventually suffering will get your attention. But, but also, you know, sometimes people say however long you were in retreat, you know, you have a you're starting another retreat of that length when you go home as as kind of the first arc of integration. So I think that the gifts that I am aware of, well, the gifts that I have like practiced speaking about, like I've talked to friends and Dharma friends, you know, so there's some things that I kind of have some language around now. That's one level and those gifts are really real. There's other gifts that are like more subtle that I maybe don't fully see or know how to talk about. And I think the deepest gifts I'm not aware of probably. That's been my experience with some kind of any kind of intensive experience like this is often these things get revealed. It's like two years after my first plant medicine experience, I'm like, Oh, something really changed there. I'm just noticing now. So I think and I hope these seeds will continue to germinate. Oh, I'm sure that they will have have any of your your friends or family members or the people that you've been around since you've come back. Have they said, Oh, this is something different that you know, the way you're reacting or responding or behaving anything that they've noticed and said to you about how you've changed? Um, only one person I can think of like made an explicit comment to that regard, but yeah, just one one person said, I think your energy is different. And I was like, cool. That's great. That's great. Are there are there any questions that you feel like I completely failed to ask or topics that I missed? Oh, man. What's coming to mind is I'm really trying to be very cognizant of there are many paths to greater peace and to clear understanding of the world. And of course, I'm enamored of this path and I think it has great explanatory power. Um, but there's a lot of people that maybe they're meditators and the circumstances, external circumstances of their life won't allow for a really long retreat or the internal circumstances won't allow or there's people who aren't meditators at all. I mean, uh, so just as I'm sharing about my gratitude for this amazing experience and the things I've gotten from it, just to just to point out that it's one path of a great many paths. Yeah, absolutely. Well, Daniel, thank you so much for your time. It's been a great pleasure to catch up with you and chat and to just hear all about your experience. Well, not all about it. Yeah, thank you so much, Luke. It's so special to have this like platform to just like talk about myself and the things I think and what I went through. I hope it's of use to anyone who listens. I have no firm plans. You know, it's one of those things where you're in it and you're like, this, this is crazy. I'm never doing this again. This, why do I keep doing this to myself? This is, this is absurd. Um, and, uh, but then, you know, there was a day a week or so ago when I noticed that like, I had this real morning, this like loss of like, wow, I missed the silence. I missed the stillness. I missed the peace. And, um, there's, you know, certainly in those last days when I was so full of joy and hearing about everyone's experiences and many of the folks that I was talking to have done this. I mean, many people were there for their first six weeks or three month retreat, but there were also a lot of people that had done it two times or four times or we're in the middle of a six month or one person doing 14 months of practice. I don't know if that'll ever be in the clouds for me. Yeah, really extraordinary. And there's just so much, uh, beautiful goodness to see and cultivate, um, understanding wisdom to be grown. So it's very appealing to want to do more practice. So it's very possible at some point, but my life is very up in the air in a number of ways. So we'll just have to see what happens. Yeah. Yeah. Well, I look forward to, you know, keeping in touch and learning more about your journey as the years progress. And again, thank you for your time and sharing everything about about your, your meditation retreat. Thanks a lot, Daniel. Yeah, I'm so touched and honored. Thank you, Luke.

Hi. Hello. Cool. Luke. How are you today? I'm good, man. Thanks for the total cold call. Twitter reach out. No, no. Honestly, the thanks truly go to you because all I did was ask you the word that any three -year-old would ask, which is simply why, and you chose to engage. You know, a lot of people, I think, would ignore that question. But you didn't. So good on you because I have thoroughly enjoyed our conversation so far. And imagine that I will continue to do so. Now, as a brief caveat, a couple of things. One, I am working while chatting. So if you can forgive the sounds of me driving around and possibly interstitially just grunting at a person who's putting things in my car, then that's going to be an element. Also, are you okay with the conceptual possibility of me saving this chat and then posting it onto my podcast feed, which admittedly has not had a episode posted to it in the past couple of years? Wow. Yeah, I'm okay with that. It's my first podcast appearance. Okay. All right. Cool. So then, if you're my guest, let's pretend like I'm introducing you, but I don't actually know anything about you, except to say, your name is Daniel. You live in Rochester, New York. You're a performing musician at a progressive church. You sometimes get gigs conducting and you are going to go on a long retreat out at IMS, which is the Insight Meditation Society out in Berry, Massachusetts, sometime in the near future. That's all correct. Yeah. Awesome. We'll tell us a little bit more about yourself. Oh, geez. It's very open-ended. Yeah. All right. Well, how old are you? I'm 30. You're 30. Cool. Yep. So you said you got into, you kind of, your eyes were opened to meditative practice after you read a book. What was the name of the book again? I haven't read this one. Yeah. It's called Full Catastrophe Living by John Kabat-Zinn. Okay. Full Catastrophe. I haven't heard of or read that book in particular. How did you find that book? Yeah. I happened to stumble across a video of John Kabat-Zinn giving a talk about mindfulness and meditation. And I found it really captivating. And so I looked at what he had written. And this was the book he'd written. I mean, I've only read it once, and it was almost 10 years ago. So I don't know whether or not it would be the book I would recommend to anyone to be their first book about this topic or not. But I do remember reading it. Sure. Wow. These people figured it out. There's a way to do this. And that being kind of astonishing to me. So that started my interest in establishing a meditation practice. Okay. And so you said this was about 10 years ago. So you were about 20 when you came across this? Yeah. More or less. Yeah. And would you say that there's, hey, there are these people and they figured out how to do this. What do you mean by this? Life. Okay. Yeah. Now I would say it like, well, my Buddhist nerd would say it like how to deal with the eight worldly wins. Which in Buddhist teaching, see if I can remember them all. There's like praise and blame. I'm going to look it up. Okay. A worldly wins. Yeah. Praise and blame, success and failure, pleasure and pain, fame and dispute, which is just like a way of categorizing the ways that we suffer and the things that are hard in life. Yeah. So when, when does your, when does your three months retreat begin? Tuesday, which is Tuesday. Yeah. About what day is this day? Friday. So. Okay. Wow. That's, that's very soon. Are you, are you feeling very excited about it? Yes. Um, yes. Yes. I'm going to jump in here. Yes. Okay. Our conversation initially started because last night I saw a tweet that you had put out into the world saying you were feeling trepidation, anxiety, fear around how you're going to cope with your tinnitus while you're on this retreat, right? Yeah. So obviously there's some excitement as you just attested to, but then there's also an element of fear around at least how you're going to handle your tinnitus. Possibly even I would certainly imagine some, some additional fears about what's it going to be like to take, you know, a quarter of a year and be intense kind of environment, right? Yeah. Um, you know, the tinnitus is both like a really big deal and it's also just a story and it's just, um, the current manifestation, you know, if it, if, if the mind, meaning my mind, didn't have tinnitus to make a boogeyman out of, it would have something. I would find something else, you know, sure. Um, I mentioned to you on our chat online that last year I went to the same retreat center IMS for three weeks and a wonderful teacher there, Matthew Hepburn said something that has stuck with me, which is retreat practice is, um, like a blank canvas and it reveals the conditioning of the mind. Uh -huh. Is this the same teacher that, because you said in, in our little back and forth that, and this is for anybody who decides to stalk us and follow us on Twitter, this back and forth happened in the DMs. So you won't find that part. Is this same teacher, the teacher that gave you cause to leave before the retreat had properly ended? No, no, that was, um, uh, that was a different field of study entirely. That was a teacher of mine at a music conservatory. I was leaving a master's program. Oh, okay. Okay. I, I got, I got my wires crossed. Okay. So you completed the three weeks at IMS, but the program that you left three quarters of the way through was your master's program because your professor was, uh, whatever. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. All right. Uh, so yeah. So being in a, a long retreat environment exposes you to the, the, the kind of bare conditioning of your mind. Is that kind of what you were saying? Yeah. Yeah. Um, I, I've learned very little about you. Do you have a treat experience or I know you're into Buddhism to some degree or? Yeah. So I, uh, my experience, it starts, let's see. So I, the first retreat I ever went on was in March of 2015. I went to a going to 10 day in Texas. Um, I was exposed to, uh, the going to school might, might. Good. How's it going? I have no idea. It's an Uber eats or it's an Uber eats order. The number ending 6, 6, 7, 8. Okay. OSN 490. Okay. Thank you. Gigantic order. I'm only getting paid like five dollars for it. Hopefully it's not on the third floor of an apartment building, but given how these things can to go, it might be, um, okay. That's the rough life out there. Yeah. Yeah. Well, you know, it's, not all that uh so uh yeah so in 2015 so all right i went through i went through my saturn's return before i knew what a saturn's return was in 2010 and it was a huge crisis point damn me or killed me and then in 2011 i started to practice meditation basically just from like some books that i got out of a free box outside of a bookstore and just basically just sitting you know and in a lot of ways my practice has just changed just just just sitting and kind of just being with where i am um but then in 2014 my sister shared with me an essay that someone had written about their experience going to a going for a treat somewhere in europe and the moment that i finished that essay and i found out that those retreats were available at the charge i was like yes this is exactly where i need to go i figured out where and when i was going to go and then a few months later i sat my first tende in texas now before i got there i was spending the winter on an island off west and i was talking to a guy who said well if you're just living out of your backpack and you're going on this retreat why don't you just stay there and serve afterwards and i was like yeah not a bad idea so when i got to my first retreat i said to brian who was checking me in and he was a long-term server at the time i said hey can i serve the retreat after this one and he said why don't you get through this retreat and so on day 10 on yeah it's not an easy right up to him in the dining hall by fire yeah i said to him i said so and he said all right so lean the next retreat starts on wednesday if you come back on wednesday you can serve the next retreats and then serve the next two retreats and then sit one after that wow and so that's exactly what i did so i wow one oh my god two and then sat another so i did four retreats back and he said i was the first person that you know had ever actually followed through and so that was the initial exposure for me to the retreat environment and to you know during the two retreats that i served i did a lot of talking to other servers and i did a lot of reading of the sutas at the time um so that's that's kind of my initial exposure since then i'd say i've sat like seven ten days i've served like seven ten days in the saki katana and i've gone and done some private retreats to mixed success i've also done some private dark retreats one of which went quite well but uh the problem with meditation going quite well is that there's kind of like an emotional karma shock that happens afterwards and then i have one that went quite poorly and uh i that that was early last year and uh much of lat the past year uh has been me kind of uh in a state of like torpor slash repair physically and motivationally and emotionally and that sort of thing so yeah so that's a little bit about my retreat experiences i've never i've never been in a retreat environment like you're going to for three weeks or for three months and i very much would like to do both of those yeah wow yeah so um so you mentioned you said at one point i think you said your practice hasn't is in many ways not dissimilar from how it started but on the other hand you uh done a huge amount of time in the goenka of the pasana tradition so uh yeah i'm curious if that kind of body scanning technique has has been really i'm sure you've done a lot of it you know but it sounds like maybe you've done some other kinds of practice too it's wide open yeah absolutely um so i don't do scanning anymore and honestly uh i my relationship to scanning even during my time of going to retreat so i uh you haven't been on a going to retreat right but you probably know about i actually did do my second retreat was a going to retreat so i have i've done one 10 day going to retreat okay okay cool so uh so you know on day four you switch from the breath meditation to the body scan meditation and uh so when i was on a retreat and the instructions were to switch to the body scanning i would switch to body scanning and during my personal practice and off retreat i was primarily focused on the breath because i really wanted to build up my concentration more than i was worried about like digging into insight so yeah i've done a lot of body scanning but i've never really attached myself to it as my primary practice now uh when i when i get anywhere near there i would say that i tend to try to observe the breath with the body in its wholeness like i try to just like hold my whole body at once with the breath when i'm focusing on the body at all that's pretty similar to my practice actually these days although there's a lot of other ways to talk about it too but on my last retreat i was really interested in um samatha practice the tranquility concentration practice and jhanas and i had all this stuff and um yeah i was i eventually just came to a point of needing to soften the boundaries around having a hard idea of what my technique was but rather just sit have a vague sort of anchor of the breath and the body and practice contentment awareness and trust the mind body to know what to do from there yeah have you uh you mentioned the genres which is always one of the most fun things to think about and talk about um do you have direct experience of jhanas absorption nope no how do you feel how do you feel about the fact that your answer is no yeah great question uh it's just the way things are um yeah i don't know if i mean so one very interesting thing i heard from a talk that joseph goldstein gave about concentration and jhanas was he said thank you um thanks a lot guys yeah he said uh something like access to jhanas is like building a motorboat to get across the you know the stream to the further shore but for some people it might take longer to build the boat than it would to just swim across um so yeah i don't know if jhanas will become part of my practice at some point or not what i do know is that going into retreat as i did a year ago with not like a really tight orientation around like i'm gonna get this but but a fairly intentional practice around moving in that direction um ended up being too tight for me my temperament my conditioning so all i know is that at this place in my practice what seems to be called for is a practice more of surrendering to present conditions um and in that way cultivating the tranquility that can serve as a base for deepening samadhi rather than a kind of like like um okay this is like if you're familiar with lee brazington's book which i thought was really fascinating like he has a technique for you have your base you know anchor and then at a certain point you switch to the feeling of pleasure and then this is what brings you into the first jhana and like that's all i'm gonna worry about that if it happens and it'd be great if it happens like it sounds amazing but um uh yeah but i've just through trial and error i'm finding what my own path forward is right now and it's not to be focused on that as a as a goal per se what uh okay so do you have a thing to be focused on as a goal and you maybe you've already said this but just to put the point on it uh i'm gonna yeah what would you say you have as your goal at this at this at this time it's really open like more the the goals that i have are more like the conditions that i want to tend to in order to allow whatever fruits will come to come on their own so like my goals are um to practice continuity of mindfulness my goals are to practice um a kind disposition towards myself and towards others at all times my goals are to practice acceptance of the current conditions in a way that feels like surrender to this is like this is really how it is right now um and uh faith that this present moment is what will deliver me as opposed to getting this attainment or this special state or this realization is what will deliver me so it's really more just like an orientation around how to be on retreat and um not what i i mean i could talk about the things i hope to come from retreat in a way that's not so striving but the primary thing is just just to go and be and then you know go from yeah well i mean you know uh if you're gonna be on retreat for three months you're gonna have you're gonna have a lot right you're gonna be in a lot of different states of feeling and thinking and being that are gonna occur you know i mean i can't even imagine what what kind of a ride you're you're you're getting yourself onto now speaking of imagining the kind of ride you're getting onto how how is the process of getting accepted for a three-month retreat um and how um like have you spoken with uh several people that have been on a retreat of this duration and gotten inside from them as to like what their experience was or what you should etc yeah um yeah i've spoken to a number of people both people i consider teachers and mentors and people who i mean everyone is a teacher and a mentor in one way but also people who i you know are more kind of where i'm at in the journey um the process of applying is very simple uh it's just an online application there's a prerequisite for certain amounts of retreat experience um and other than that it's not there's no like interview or anything you know um they just want to uh know that you have have gone to some depth before so you're not plunging into the deep end too fast and they ask some mental health questions some medicine questions things like that just to screen for safety because there are certain um things that are negatively indicated for this kind of practice yeah um but i my main teacher i work with is a wonderful dharma teacher named temple smith t-e-m-p-e-l he's uh in the terravada slash insight tradition he does a lot of teaching at spirit rock in california which is where i met him and he has lots of experience on long retreats and a few other teachers of mine i've spoken with and um a few other at least one other friend i'm thinking of who was on the three month retreat in 2018 i've spoken with too awesome so what what has temple told you to help you prepare yourself for your for your big retreat coming up yeah a lot of things but one of them is similar to what i shared already which is um he said at one point oh my sounds yeah i'm getting a lot of like oh right that's the uh that's the shopping bag sorry it's going to be that way for the next couple minutes um okay so ridiculously huge order that they gave me fortunately i don't have you're trucking up and out the stairs right now huh well no i'm just i'm going from my car to the door okay piling stuff in piling stuff in the breezeway i'm not like a retract retirement center and they're literally okay food to feed like a whole place for a week it seems like yeah so the thing that he told you that is really sticking with you um well i was telling him about this orientation i'm carrying not trying to accomplish anything um and just really being simple and um but i also asked him you know i in this past year i read actually read it well yeah i finished it in the past wonderful book um by rob rebea called seeing that freeze um that there's some talk about concentration practices but it's mostly uh like a philosophical text but also a manual on all these different ways of doing insight practice to see the emptiness of all phenomenon the emptiness of dependent origination the emptiness of time like it gets very far out there and it's like amazing and like i can kind of imagine what that kind of practice might be like uh but i but yeah it's a very different kind of it's a very different kind of being in retreat to like have these intentions than the intention i'm carrying which is like i'm not trying to accomplish anything i'm not trying to do anything in particular i'm letting this all come to me and um one thing temple told me was you can really trust the simple simple practice even though there's all these other things to think about like oh the balance of faith and wisdom and the factors of enlightenment and there's lots of ways to think about the practice that would be helpful but the simple practice of just when i'm breathing in i know i'm breathing in when i'm breathing out i know i'm breathing out he said you can trust that all the way and you won't miss the dharma it's like the side of a barn you can't avoid hitting it yeah i thought it was great so that's one of the things that i you know hold on to for some faith that like this really is enough borrowing faith from someone much further down the path than me you know so when you when you use the word faith what does that word mean to you yeah it's like a trust that this path leads somewhere and that could be or another way of thinking about it is it's like the opposite mind state of vacillation the opposite of doubt and yeah i was a like a materialist smog atheist for the first part of for maybe i don't know 20 years i guess and i thought any kind i thought this word was really stupid like any kind of you know faith just means belief in something that you don't have a good reason to believe but as it turns out faith is i think more like extending your trust in a direction so that it's possible for you to make progress um and so it's not just like i've decided that you know there's all kinds of ways to corrupt this this trust and faith can be misplaced and so faith has to be balanced with discernment and wisdom um but if you're going to do a practice like follow your breath or you know just maintain continuity of mindfulness for three months it takes the level of trust that that is going to bear some fruit and that trust has been developed by i mean it gets again i can borrow it from from people from others but its primary development is from my own experience and so the further i extend my trust into the past the more i'm able to develop the more i'm able to see benefits of the path which then allows me to extend my faith further and travel yet further right so i um so i remember i don't remember who had written the text but i remember there was a specific moment i was reading in that period when i first started my going to retreat so i'm reading tons of sutras and i'm reading a commentary uh and this ajan or whatever that's writing in this book he he talks about faith and he basically the key that he points to is that he says that faith is one of the most important friends that you can have in your practice and he basically describes it simply as having the faith that the practice will have results right yeah like you're not just wasting time like there's there's uh there's a there there and this is gonna get you there yeah now let's see sorry just trying to collect my thoughts if you've said a lot of things i have things that i want to throw in oh okay so breathing in i am aware that i am breathing in breathing out i am aware that i am breathing out uh breathing short i am aware that i'm breathing short breathing long i'm aware that i'm breathing long yeah now there's there's a key element in the anapana sutra that goes along with that that i believe can quite often be overlooked which is that when you're aware of the formations you want to uh relax or that's not the word they use in the text but basically calm calm bodily formations calm mental formations that kind of thing precisely precisely yeah and in in the parlance of of of the modern world you know just like honestly just like relaxation is how you calm those formations like and so for me in my practice so i i went on a retreat that i actually for the first time for the first time i went on a retreat and i quit in the middle of the retreat lots of reasons for that none of which had to do with the practice itself uh more just with me and my my my my headspace at the time but but but the teacher of the retreat who was not actually the teacher at the retreat because he'd had a stroke and was like in a in a care facility now but the the point that he focused on is that this calming of the formations this action of relaxation and for me after i after i heard him speak and given what i had already learned on my personal dark retreats that like and then scriptures and not just buddhist scriptures but like ancient like orthodox scriptures or not scriptures but commentaries that like this this secret the secret to all of this as far as like the practice is in the relaxation like when you're sitting there and you're aware of your breath but you feel that tension in your head like yeah take the time to relax that feeling because once you do it feels good and that whole thing when we were talking about the genre and talking about pleasure and all of that stuff like if you allow if you allow your awareness of tension to lead to the action of relaxation and then returning to your object whether your object is your breath or open awareness or you know whatever you're being directed to focus on at the time but but that but that relaxing is so fundamental in the action of whatever that natural unfolding process of the next step is going to be becoming you know like your your your lived experience yeah um yeah i just agree um relaxation is a huge huge part of my practice and one of the things i kind of um discovered about practice on my last retreat a year ago which was three weeks was um you know i can spend 45 minutes of an hour sit just calming the body and just really subtly relaxing muscle tension and and relax we use it like a verb but it's different than all other verbs you know it's like this kind of has to do with some this ties into like alexander technique stuff too it's like it's not um relaxing is not a doing if it's it's uh it's it requires being it's like if there's a like if i'm sitting cross-legged and i notice oh there's like this little patch of what feels like a little patch of muscle in my inner thigh that i just it just came online for me that that there's some tension there if i try and like do something to that to relax it then i've just added more tension so the first step is just like let my awareness rest in this spot of tension and then it might take 15 or 20 seconds for this new awareness to arise of ah there's the doing i'm already participating in so now there's an action of stopping participating in this tension making rather than participating in some other action to try and get the tension just to stop um yeah the the motion of awareness to any given you know like be it a physical formation of muscle tension or mental formation of like an anxious thought it's just it's amazing just how powerful it is just like shining that light of awareness onto the thing and then just you know without trying to force it or coerce it or or oppress it or annihilate it just like the awareness does its own kind of magic and yeah yeah over over time maybe instantaneous maybe a brief period just kind of that that that in constancy that that nature of change will will begin to reveal itself and then yeah and then things can kind of move forward from there yeah so this gets me kind of excited because it makes me think about the kind of like fractal nature of all these things and how this i believe that's a kind of it's like this unconditional acceptance of what is the kind of emptiness acknowledgement meeting the form of you know reality and that is what allows the way forward to emerge so this is true whether we're talking about like some little muscle fibers or some emotional blockages um but it just makes me think like surely this must be true of like really large-scale things like systems of oppression and domination in our world and now i'm curious because your twitter handle has the word anarchist in it and i just i see these things related and you know i think that um there's a lot to learn it's like i'm trying to start at these really fine levels of understanding how to meet reality seriously um and authentically in order to let the path to emerge to move forward so that i can then look at the world around me and like hopefully some of that same training will help me act in a way that is relaxing the tensions of the world not adding to them yeah well so i um i as an anarchist i don't know if you have read any of toll story uh toll story not not uh war and peace and anachronism but toll stories later work i don't know how how how much do you know about toll story i guess is a good very little yeah okay it for me so um so there's a podcast it's called the thread by uh ozzy media and in it they one of their one of their thread series uh it ends with um i want to say it ends with martin luther king jr but it it it goes back step by step from martin luther king jr to a guy whose name i can't remember to gondi and then before gondi you have leo toll story so he'll go off toll story was born an aristocrat and uh wrote a couple of very you know famous novels war and peace and anachronism but he also you know like he was very concerned with the world and the way of the world and the way of the government and the way of the church and all of these different things and he became a philosophical religious leader uh in the in the latter part of his life in his own right and uh really uh christian anarchism was kind of you know that's that's how i would describe describe myself as i would describe myself as a toll story and christian anarchist really uh but when it when it comes to when it comes to matters of religiosity philosophical teaching kind of stuff i'm more i'm more keen to quote suit us to people than i am to quote bible verses to people because you know given given given the 21st century common you know rational materialists they're much more likely to hear what the buddha has to say than they are to hear what jesus has to say even though you know like when you compare the scriptures like 75 percent of the stuff that jesus said was basically just stuff that the buddha had said already um yeah so and then and then again you know uh i mentioned you know like these ancient uh you know eastern orthodox commentaries the the the the orthodox monks have been on to the same okay so literally like i read this i read this before the wires didn't plug in for me until later but i read this before i ever even knew about my first going to retreat which is like there's a commentary on meditation given by this orthodox monk and he's basically says it yeah if i if i take a student under my wing like the first thing i'll have him do is i'll have him focus on the concentration of awareness on his breath in the area of his belly and once once he's able to concentrate his awareness on his breath in his belly then we move on to awareness of the entirety of the body and everything just kind of happens from there so literally you've got like christian orthodox writings from a thousand years ago describing the same practice yeah that you would learn on a mahasi retreat or something you know it kind of i guess kind of a fusion of like mahasi and gaunka because you're going from breath belly to body awareness so you're not going from like breath belly to noting but anyway you know like it's all it's all it's all there um and that's to say that you know like this is this is a perennial this is a perennial wisdom here like this is just a fundamental truth about being human you don't need a religion to figure it out but uh you know but a religion like the word religion what does that word mean it means to reconnect like ligament and ligaments are the things that connect your bones and your muscles and it's all just a matter of connecting the you to the emptiness or whatever um i could go on and on and on but i do need to go into this walgreens to do some shopping and it's going to be entirely too discursive to do both at the same time so what i do want to do is i want to wrap up this conversation i'd love to check in with you in about three and a half months yeah happy great in the meantime i i think i will kind of take this chat and save the audio file and just throw it on to my podcast feed i'll send you a link and then anybody who uh has gone to this point in the conversation wow you're amazing thanks for listening it's been a lot of fun for me to get to know you a little bit better daniel and hopefully we can have more of these conversations in the future yeah thank you uh unexpected treat today do you have any thoughts or anything that you'd like to say uh in in summary or in closing um yeah i you know what's coming to mind for me is this has been a really um great conversation i just i think it'd be really nice to just close it out with bringing in a little more of the heart energy so if anyone's after listening um i hope that this uh conversation might contribute to your well -being and liberation and to all beings well-being and liberation absolutely yes i i i share this sentiment to the to the goodwill of all beings yeah unseen may may we all uh have happy minds and healthy bodies indeed indeed thank you so much daniel have a great day you too take care all right bye bye

Oh, hello. I'm gonna text that. That's what I'm gonna text. Well, it was perfect, too, because you're probably, you're like, you're not expecting this text, I bet. Or not this early, you know. Yes. Well, yeah, exactly. Exactly. Well, right. Yeah, yeah. Like, maybe in another another couple of weeks or something, but not right now. No. I, like, I was hoping that I was wrong, but I was like, I feel like he's gonna be texting me the next day or so. Oh, yeah. Well, I mean, the reason to hope that you're wrong, I mean, you know, everything happens for a reason. Yeah. And I'm not upset about the fact that I hinted to retreat when I did, because I did what he does. Yeah. So I guess, I guess now we'll talk a little bit about, I wasn't ready. And I wasn't ready in a way that is here. But then, you know, it's loose. So here is not really all that weird. I don't know if I've ever talked to you about this stuff before, but back in 2016, after I got back from going to Europe with Christina, I was living out in the shed in the backyard in, like, November. So right before I got the job as a ballet. And I hadn't agreed. And in that stream, I was told to need to stop eating sugar and stop ejaculating. Yeah. And then in March, right before I left, right before I quit working in the hotel, let's go out west. I had another dream. I was told you could stop ejaculating until you're just your wife. Well, I've gone for a period of time, the longest of which is 13 months without ejaculating. But prior to this retreat, prior to this retreat, I was having sex with Shayna, the woman that I've been staying with up to Washington, like up until like a day or two, up until a day or two before I was free. Yeah. So there's, there's, uh, there's a lot of thought around, you know, like inner alchemy, like, like, the period of practices and how particularly for guys, like, well, obviously for guys, not for girls, girls don't have to eat ejaculate, like, for guys, like, when you're doing, like, these kinds of practices, you have to stop ejaculating in order to, like, build up your inner. And last year, last year, when I did my retreat, I got to, when I, when I, I, when I got, by the time I had done my 555 retreat, my third retreat, where I got fully connected. And once I started, I opened everything. I had done at least a month and a half without ejaculating, maybe even two months by that. And, and, and when, when the moment happened, when, like, everything connected, I was, like, what happened first was, first I got an erection and then the energy, and then the energy went up my spine and down my spine and connected from the bottom to the top, like my, like my whole system, like connected together. And that was when it went boom. And like, then my third, I opened everything and it was game on. And in the week or so before this retreat, like one night after I had sent Shana, I have a dream and it's like, it's like, I'm like pulling my plug, like jerking off, and it's like, it was kind of like, all of the cream had come out of the toothpaste too. Like, there was no case such as a tube. Basically, like, something inside of me was saying, all right, buddy, you're sent. Like, you haven't, all the good stuff, all the good stuff that you need is gone now. Basically, you know, you diddle it all away. It's gone. You don't have it now. And so while I was in there in the retreat, I had had a dream about, so, so one of the metaphors used for ejaculating is, like, filling, it's called, or it's called, like, emptying the cup of Hermes. You know, because Hermes has these failed and valented Hermes, he's the messenger, and Hermes, it quicks over and quicks over his mercury, and it's all this inner alchemy stuff. And, you know, like, you have to have multiple components in order to see the alchemy. And I had had this dream where I was, like, seeing these symbols, and I, like, picked up this thing and it was like, all right, well, you show the picture out there, picture not ready, kind of. And then I had one dream, or it was in that dream, it was, like, before that, because, like, the symbol was showing up, and I was like, I was, mom was there, and I'm like, oh, do you know what that symbol means? Like, oh, isn't that Satan? And I'm like, no, that's not Satan, that's Hermes. And then I kept seeing it in different places. And then, and like, there was something in that conversation with her, where, like, the feedback that I was getting to their response was that I was talking about how something goes to Christ. I do, but I'm like, but I don't, but at the time, I didn't know what was right. And then when I was, and then when I was, the next day, I had a dream, and I was talking to Dad, and I was in, like, a very bright, humid room, and again, talk to Dad, telling him about what I was doing, and something wasn't right. And then, but I didn't know what wasn't right, and I wasn't the one talking about something not being right, but he was saying that I was saying something wasn't right. So I think I couldn't, I hadn't quite figured it out. I hadn't quite put it together yet. And then yesterday, I got to this point, because like, I wanted to quit on day five, but then I always want to quit on day five. Yeah. And, and so on day six, day six was when it day five, well, so day five, I had the dream with the Hermes symbol. And then the next night, leading into day six, I had the dream, and it was just like this, like, flowing orb, and it was like, it was like, it was like, welcome to the doorway, too. And it stopped. And I just had like this image of a doorway, or like of a doorknob or something, but I couldn't open it. And I didn't know where it led. Like, so it's like, basically, I got up to the door, but no further. And then, so yesterday, I, I, in the morning, before my breakfast comes, like, I woke up super early, and I've got all this anxiety and everything. And, and then, like, it builds up to this point where, finally, like, I have a relief. And I'm like, Oh, yeah, right, I'm just supposed to relax and just need to relax. And, and then I just, I felt, I felt high, you know, like, I felt really good. And, and you'll remember from the audio that we listened to, before the interview, last, last year, when I did this, I had that moment where that wave of heat rolled over. Right? Like, I was stressed out. And then, and then one morning, just like, boom, everything just felt right. This was like that, but different. It was like half power. It's, you know, it was somewhere between half, like 60 to 80% power. It wasn't the whole thing. And I could tell, I could tell, like, this wasn't the whole body experience that I had last time. And then, but, but it felt fucking great. And my food came, I had breakfast, I took shower and I meditated for a little while. And I was like, Oh, I'm tired. I feel good. It's great. And then I started to have the vision of, and this is just a weird shit, but it was of like two bodies, not regular, just like, just kind of like this, like at the top of the frame, this is like white and the bottom of the frame is like dark. And then there's like the alien genitals. And the female genitals are almost like, almost like a pod. Like imagine your hand, like the fingers. Did you watch the arrival of Amy Adams? I haven't seen it. No, no, I haven't seen it. Oh, okay. All right. Well, so, so imagine, like, imagine like an octopus, right? Okay. Like, and so, so like the wedge parts of, of where the arms come together. So basically it was like that. It was kind of like that in white. It was like that was like connected to the upper body. And that was like pushing down on the lower body. And it was just kind of like a little like thumbnail of a pecker that couldn't get hard or big or do anything. And so like, it's like octopus vagina is like trying to like fraud this like penis to like connect, but it's got no, oh, there's no connection, right? Yeah. So basically like, so like, it's like, it's like emphasis, right? Like alien sex emphasis. Like I so, and then once I did fall asleep, it was like, it was like, I was, it was, it was one of the most physically violent dreams I've ever had. Just like, it was just like I was in like a washing machine just like tumbling back and forth. It's like, this isn't right. This isn't right. It's and I was like, okay, I'm not ready. Like I don't have, I don't have this, this, this, this, this theme that I need for these types of things. And then later I came up to see an hours, it's like you're running a two stroke odor. You got gas to no oil, right? Don't fucking run that voter until you have oil in that fuel, right? Otherwise you're going to blow out a fucking piston, you know? So for me, like there's something in that kids, you know, like if I just stayed in there and gone full cosmic, but not have like the body support that I needed for wind, for wind, like everything, I don't know. Like, I can't, there's no way to know. So like that's the story that I've got. And when I made the decision, like, that's it. I'm done. I'll open the door. I'll you know, yeah. And the first two people, like before I, before I opened the door, like I talked to Alana, who is also in the building at the time, doing her own retreat, and her husband, she's like, well, maybe you can talk to my husband. I don't know. Like you think I'm just like, am I so fast? But yeah, I kind of do. But like, it's, there's a difference like, it's, there's a difference between women and men. And also, this is some like, weird and so scary shit. This is like, most people don't really believe it anyway. So yeah. And so then the next person that I saw was this woman, Nikki, who was in the room before me. And she, she was like, oh, well, you should just go back in and just use this as an opportunity to just get rid of all of your stories and just go all the way. And I'm like, no, that's not, that's not, that's not, that's not my truth. And then, and then at the time, Finn was gone. He was in town, buying groceries and doing stuff. And then when Finn came back, I went downstairs to talk to him and I told him, he's like, dude, I totally get it. Like, he's like, I've been, I've been doing team and retention for the past 35 years. Like, there's no team in the pipe, and he doesn't feel right. You know, like, trust your truth, man. You know, like, it's all good. It's, you know, and so, but the thing is, so for now, so the room is still mine until, like, I still got the room for the same period of time. So, so I can leave and come back. And that's what I'm doing. I, you know, over the past week of being in the dark, in the dark, having found a whole lot of things, not a whole hell of a lot going on. I've, you know, I've got some stuff that I need to pick up from back in Washington. So, like, I didn't, I didn't, I, I, I, I realized, like, oh, I need this, I need that. And just like, it's a thing that I, that I said, you know, like, so that now when I leave, I don't need to go back before I head on after, you know, after I'm done in Oregon, then I can like head on to Mexico and I'll have everything I need. Because I realized, like, oh, I can configure myself so I can put some of my storage on the top of my car and like, strap it down in a way that I can actually carry more stuff than I was thinking of. And I didn't pack it, but so, so, so yeah. So I'm going to pull up for a day or two, get some shit, and do all that, and then come back, and then, and so what I, what I, what I, and I, I could go back in, like, I, I could get there today, drive back tomorrow, go back in tomorrow night, and go for nine days. I don't think that's what I'm going to, because I still don't have the steam in the pipe. Yeah. Well, but what I do know is this, is that, like, there's been a lot of coming and going, because he's got like other people coming in and out of his face, like, he's got space in there for three different people to do this at once, but, and then, and then sometimes there'll be like conversations happening, and like, I really don't want to distract him. And when I first went in there, like for the first two, because I don't know if you've ever had this experience, like, when you go into a room, somebody else is let in, like they leave their stuff in that space, like energetically, you know? Yeah, yeah, definitely, definitely. Like, like, you'll go into a room and you'll, like, have somebody else distract dreams or something, because they used to sleep in that bed, that kind of stuff. And so the first two nights, the first two nights I was in there, like, I had some, some nicky shit happening for me, and I couldn't sleep, because like the energy in that room wasn't my energy yet, you know? So like, I started off on the wrong fucking foot. And, and, yeah, so, so, you know, and so my thought, and so the thing is, is Finn has to place a book until, like, through most of April. Now what he said, though, is that he could keep the place going year round if somebody, you know, if somebody else wanted to do the management, he's only, he's only got like six months out of a year where he's, he's willing or able to manage the schedule, you know? Yeah. And then after the winter, he's done. The cool thing for me, I've got nowhere to be, right? So, so theoretically, so the theory that I'm working with, because I had talked to him before I went in, I had talked to him about staying and certain, you know, kind of like being a support member, like, you know, kind of doing what Alana had done before I got there, what Nikki was doing after, after she came out and I went in, where she was prepared to kneel and take care of people's needs while they're in retreat. So what I'm thinking is, is, I didn't get this far before I was, before I said goodnight to Finn and went to bed, I got this far before I fell asleep, was go up to Washington, get the rest of my shit, close that out, come back down, do another five days in the dark, you know, continuing to prime the, prime, because I'm way more primed, like I was, I was on the cusp of breaking through, but it wouldn't have been the right time to break through. It's like, my system isn't fully in balance. I need, I need my like, I need my, my inner energy to be right before, before, you know, like, it's like a upper house, lower house thing, like you need an exchange happening, and I didn't have the lower house to like, to do the alchemy. I, I can't, you know, like, I don't know enough about it to know more than that. I just know that, like, I was, I was not, not in balance for, for, for the kind of trip that I was about to go on, you know, like, I didn't have my bags. I didn't have, this just wasn't right anyway. So, so I go, go, go to Washington, get stuff, come back, then do another short retreat where I just, you know, I just, prime, prime, prime, because like that's the thing is like, I didn't, you know, last year, when I went, I did five, and I did five, and then I did nine, and then third time around on day six, on day six, the last we're on, right? And then, you know, like, when he's on longer retreat, you know, like, the lights will come on for him by like, day four, because he'll do a bunch of little, like, three day, four, day five days in the gap in between, when nobody's on the schedule, nobody's around, and he's just got the place to himself, right? So, so, right. So, and it's great out there. There's like, my phone's got no signal. You have to like, go to this cold ass building to get internet. I can just spend more time in the quiet and meditate, and just like, focus on my internet tracks as meditation, and just like, clean stuff out, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And then, so my thought is, if he's got people booked out through April, but the building is still theoretically available, I can talk to the caretaker of the land, and then I could just try retreat once it's done. Like, once everybody else is done, then at the end of April, then I could go in and stay in for my, for my real, like, three-week retreat, you know, like, my real 18 days, and like, do it without having the noises of others, you know, because, I mean, like, fuck, the past three days, I would, not yesterday, but the days before that, here's what would happen. Somebody would knock at my door with my food. I would get my food, and then as soon as I got my food, Alana in the other room down the stairs would start banging her drum, and she wasn't like, playing a song, she would just be like, tap, tap, tap, tap, tap, tap, tap, tap, and then I would eat my food, use the toilet, wash my hands, and as soon as I was done, then she would stop drumming. And after three, four days of that, you get to this point where you, you're like rushing through your meal, because that tap, tap, tap, tap of the drum, like, whether that's what she's thinking or not, what's happening in my head is like, get fucking done so I can do my thing, you know, because what happened before, like, because before those days happened, I came, I came out after I was done eating, I took my food tray downstairs, set it downstairs, and then came back up to use the toilet when she was sitting on the toilet, and she could like hear me coming upstairs, so she flushed it, and then I sat, I stood outside of the doorway for a couple of minutes, because I thought she flushed it, because she was done, but she was still sitting on the toilet, so I went back to my room, and I closed the door, and then once she was done using the toilet, then I came out and I used the toilet. So in my mind, since we had that like crossing of the paths, she's in this mode now where it's like, okay, well, when breakfast comes, I'll just bang on this drum until he's done, and then once he's done, then, you know, and I'll say my prayers and do my thing, whatever, it's my drum, until he's done, and then when he's booked for me, but I don't need that fucking pressure of like, you drumming your drum the whole time, I'm trying to eat my meal, you know, yeah, and just like all those different little things of like, sharing the space with other people, like, I'm not into that, like that, you know, like, I don't want, I don't need that, I don't, I don't need other people's shit, or like, thin, decided to like, have a conversation with somebody. Right, exactly, you know, and like, and like, because there's three rooms, and so like, other people were going to be coming in and out, it just so happened that the people that were going to be coming in and out for my first retreat just decided to cancel, but you know, like the first night, and I'm guilty of this, because last night I came out and I was talking to Finn, while Alon is in the room up there, but like, when I went in the first night, then like, Finn and Nicky were like having a chat, and I came down and I'm like, look guys, I'm trying to meditate, and the sound is completely out of my world, like, I can't deal with distractions, you know, and so for sure, for sure, like, there would be, like, you know, over the, you know, he was like, you know, somebody else is going to come in, a couple days later, and then Alon was going to be leaving a few days after that, and so they were going to be, you know, like, while I'm in deep fucking waters, like, trying to like, navigate the folds of the universe, I'm going to have Finn talking to a bunch of people and people moving in and out of the rooms around me, and like, all that fucking noise, like, no, thank you. Yeah. Like, if I'm going to go, if I'm going to go, like, navigating my inner space, I want to be in fucking dark mode, I don't want to be dealing with anybody else's, you know, like, and maybe other people can deal, and I'm just too sensitive or whatever, but that's my truth and I'll hold to it. Through that, wow. Huh. Yeah, I mean, remember you saying it, and obviously you didn't want to rely on substance, and also you didn't want to be part of, like, the group setting, you wanted to do it on your own, and yeah, you... Well, it is, you are in your own private room, but it's not isolated, it's not sound isolated, like, I'm not, I'm not sharing a room with anybody else, although, like, the bathroom space is kind of external space, but so yeah, so it's private enough in that way, I think, for most people, especially for people that are cool with doing ceremony in a shared way or whatever, but yeah, for me, definitely, like, yeah, I am very seeing the fuck alone in a silent fire, and also no steam in the pipe, just like, I excuse all the toothpaste out, and, you know, and I kept getting these warning signs of like, hey, you're not ready, hey, don't do this, hey, this isn't right, you know, and hey, all right, we're gonna rally a fucking page now, like, you know, like, the receiver, the giver and the receiver aren't connecting, you know, it's like very clear messages, like, this ain't the time for you, so, but, you know, by, if, you know, if I could, it was the end of February, the last time I was with Shayna, if I wait until the end of April, May, then, you know, I'll have a, I'll have a month and a half, two months of skiing back in the pipe, and by that point, I should be ready to go for, for takeoff, so. Thank you. Yeah. And, you know, worst case, worst case scenario just doesn't work out, I go back, I spend a couple days down there, and then, and then after, after my little four or five days gone, then, you know, I head down to, I head down towards New Mexico, and I figure out the next thing as I go. The world is, the world works in interesting ways. What's up? Well, right, I mean, because the fact of the matter is, is before I had even decided I was coming out, you had gotten the message that I would be out, you know, like, you knew I was coming back. Yeah. That's the thing, like, spirit knows, you know. Yeah. Like, for sure, spirit knows. And, you know, I mean, you and I have, we haven't, we haven't gotten into, like, the whole spiritual talk about, you know, like, you know, God, Jesus, and all that kind of stuff, sort of, and spirit. But, but, you know, I mean, if you're, if you're asking questions about life after death, you know, I know that at some level, you're, you're asking yourself those, and, I mean, this, it's nothing, it's nothing else, you know, like, let this be one of those signs where I can say to you, Sam, spirit knows, you know, like, the fact that these connections are real and you can verify them, you know, like, there is real communication that is definitely happening. Yeah. Yeah, you're definitely right. The fact that, the fact that, like, all these pieces are falling together in these ways. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, yeah, I believe it. I always, I always have, I got, I got pretty jaded, whatever, like, you know, in my teenage years, just like, with the whole, like, authoritarianism of Christianity, you know, I, oh man, I'm sorry that you got stuck in the Methodist Church. That, that, that, that take on Christianity is not the most, in my view, in life, but, you know, everybody's at, everybody's at their own level, right? Yeah. Well, also, like, just, like, the media, like, like, watching, like, Red State, I don't know if you ever saw that, Kevin Smith. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. That, that movie gave you one of the, one of the serious fucking dreams I've ever had. Really? Yeah. I fucking, after that movie, I went to bed, and the dream that I had, like, all of the planets in the sky were, like, you know, like, when the, when there's like a full moon on the horizon, and it's like, so fucking big, you feel like you could eat it like a cookie, you know? Like, all the planets in the sky were bigger than that. And everything was just like crashing in on itself. And the sound of that air horn at the end of the movie was blaring. And I swear to God, I thought it was into the fucking world that night, after that movie. He, like, yeah, he, like, triggered some, like, apocalyptic shit in my dreams that night, after that movie. Yeah. Yeah, that one, that one, yeah. Yeah, a lot of that type of stuff just made me kind of lose the, I don't know, and I've always been kind of like, it's like, never, never adious, but always just kind of agnostic in the fact that I don't know. And obviously, like, I've had signs, and I've always like, when I was a kid, whenever we would go to church, like, I got definitely believed, but I don't know, I just, I have like mixed feelings about it. I, I mean, I'm not a church guy, you know, like, I got, I got plenty of issues with churches. You know, like, one of my big things is like, you know, Jesus doesn't want you to worship that, you know? Like, and that's, that's where most people, most people have got it wrong. Like, Jesus's message is, follow me. Like, I have lessons to teach you, and I have a life, I have a lifestyle to show you. And if you do the things that I'm doing, that you can, you can have the connection that I have, right? Like, literally, Jesus's message is, and this is, this is, like, literally from the Bible, his message is repent. The kingdom of God is a pain. And that's, that's a little bit unclear what it means until you break down the translation. The word repentant does not mean what most people think it means. So most people are thinking of reconciliation, where, like, what you're doing, where you're, writing this letter of saying, like, I'm sorry that I did these things wrong, right? Like, that is reconciliation, and that is an important part of the healing process, but that is not repentance. Repentance is living a life where you don't make those mistakes anymore. Repentance is, is, is, is, is looking inward for your truth, instead of looking outward for your truth. Like, repentance is trusting spirit instead of, instead of trusting money. You know, that, it's that, it's that, it's that turn of, like, shifting your value system to say, like, I value my spiritual life more than I value my material life, right? And then, and then, so repent for the kingdom of God is at hand. The kingdom of God is the divine presence. At hand, at hand means right here, right now. The message that Jesus teaches, and it's in the gospel literally, repent for the kingdom of God is at hand, turn for now, be here now, is literally the message of Jesus. Like, turn inward, because what you seek is here right now with Jesus. You already have it. You just have to, you just have to get out of your own way. Right? Like, that, that is, that is the gospel. And the gospel means the good news, but that is the good news of Jesus Christ. You can turn inward right now and see with God his very moment. That is beautiful. Oh my God. You're right. I mean, yeah, you're right. 100% I mean, I, yeah. And so that's the thing is like that message of repent the kingdom of God is at hand has got work over the years where people think that it means like, oh, well you need to be sorry for all the shit you did wrong. And if you're sorry enough that you trust Jesus in one day, he'll take care of it for you. Right? And that's the wrong fucking message. That is not the message that he was given. Right? Like, that's what, that's the corruption of the church of like, oh, well, say you're sorry to pay your dues and later on later on, later on, he'll come and wipe up your mess for you. No, that's not, that's not, that's not the truth. That's not the game of life. You know? Yeah. And when you read the gospel that he teaches a lot about like how to live the kind of life that's following him. And it means giving up worldly things, like losing your attachment to the world and loving the truth more, you know, like honestly, you know, and I am not, please hear me clearly. I am not a good role model, but I do the best of I can to fight him that way. Yeah. Yeah, I mean, yeah, it's a struggle to get out of your own way. It takes a long time to learn how. Yeah. But at the same time, that instantaneous truth moment, the present, the fact of God, what? And so here's the thing about God, right? So the prayer Jesus in the gospel, Jesus is how to pray. He says, don't do all this, don't do all that, all the shit people do, they're making a bunch of noise, battling. God knows what you need already. If you want to pray, go off into a private place by yourself and pray this prayer. And he teaches the Lord's prayer, he says, our Father, right? Okay, we'll strip all the hatred stuff off. Oh, source, right? But the energetic source of all life, whatever that is, right? Our Father, who art in heaven, right? Our source, the perfect loving light of truth. Hallowed be thy name. Now this goes to the Tao De Ching, which I don't know if you've heard of it, but the first poem of the Tao De Ching is, the way that can be named is not the way, right? And with all of the, like, near death experiences and everything else, like, whatever the truth is, it can't be said. Like, it's bigger than words. Like, you can't, you can't wrap your head around it in a way that you can put it down on paper, or you can sell it to somebody, right? And, and like, and in the, in the, in the Hebrew tradition, the name of God was not posted, not written down. And, and when Jesus said, Hallowed be thy name, he's pointing to the fact that what he called God, like the word God is a placeholder for the unknowable, the unknowable, the unethical, the beyond, right? Like, whatever God, like, if anybody tells you, like, God's a guy on a throne with a white beard, no, that's not God. Like, that's an image that Pan has created of God. That's God's creator, that Pan created God in Man's open, right? Yeah. Whatever God, like, and, and so, like, that human sense of nirvana has this, like, unpeakable, unethical, but un, but, but perfect, amazing proof, right? Like, to me, the word God and the word nirvana, they both point to the same thing. They both point to this thing that you can't, like, you can only know it from experience, you know, and you can only, you know, like, it, it is the great beyond, you know? So, and, and in its own way, you know, like, we are part, like, there's nothing, there's nothing left out of it. Everything is of it. We are of it. We are, we are like, we are like the passage of a diamond, passing off one little shard of light that comes from it, right? Like, everything that we see is a reflection or a refraction of that truth in its own little way. But then, you know, that's, that's the way it is with mirrors. Things can get deceiving and then we find ourselves in this world where, you know, we're led to believe that, oh no, don't believe that thing because it's all of this and it's not all of that. That's just, that's, you know, that's, that's the, those are the dirty rags that have been thrown on it in order to make you think that it's a pile of dirty rags. Yeah. Oh, yeah, that's, that's, and that's kind of, no, no, no, no, and that's always kind of been another thing that, like, kind of has jaded me is that, yeah, like, obviously, like, like you said, it's like man's creation of what God is, and it's like, how, like, how do we, how do we know? And, like, and, yeah, and then, I mean, I don't really, I never really thought of it as, like, spirituality, but all I know is that you have now, you know, and, or, I mean, in more, in more recent years, and I guess there is something divine about that. Yeah. No, what will you say? Well, I was going to keep going, but I want to, I want to be a better listener. I want to let you finish your thoughts. I mean, I was just going to agree with what you say and kind of say, that's kind of just how I've been feeling about it, and that's, like, that's why I kind of just jaded about it. It's, it's just because it's like man's, you know, like the Bible was written by man, like, maybe at one point before, like, all the technology and the cloud is, like, before all the corruption of it, maybe there was, like, God shining down and talking to the humans and letting us know, like, this is the way, but, like, I mean, he doesn't speak to me, like, there are signs, like, like that anxiety attack that I had, and whenever I'm, like, fearing that there is no God or heaven, and then a fucking massive thunder class happens, right, as that happens, it was kind of, like, signs, but, like, you know, I just, I always have just kind of seen it as it's man's creation, and then you, and then I, like, I start to, like, you know, look at how it's just, like, kind of, like, a money-making machine of, like, homeless people. Oh, sure, yeah, well, yeah, right. Yeah, the church, the church is, yeah. The church, yeah, and, and, like, it's natural for humans to see power, you know, and what greater power is there than God to try to claim authority over, to say, well, we'll be your gatekeepers, so you trust us, and you pay your dues, and we'll give you, we'll give you yours later, which is very clearly what Jesus is there to stop. So, where I was gonna go next, I was gonna, I was gonna talk to you about Jesus, and so I wanted to explain to you my conception of Jesus, because I think it's important that you understand it. So, Jesus says, right, like, that's, that's, that's the thing that everybody uses, you'll see it out there, and so Jesus is salvation, and there is truth in that, because, again, you have to look at what some of these words mean. Salvation comes to the word salvation, and salve in lacking help, and back, back in, back in the Roman era, the way that people would greet one another is often, they would say, salve, brother, to one another as a greeting, which means good health to your friends, right? Yeah, like, that was just how you said hello, which you would say, oh, here's to your health, here's to your health, salve, salve, and for, and this, this comes to me from a lot of the near death experiences that I have read, where, like, when a person dies, especially someone who has like a really challenging life, and feeling the struggle, they can, that kind of stuff, there comes this moment where they'll meet Jesus on the other side, and they just fall the fuck apart, right? Like, they're kind of like some of the experiences that you've been having, where just like something just hits you, and then just like everything, all of the guilt, and all of the shame, and all of the sadness, and all of the grief, and all of the stuff that you've been hiding under your own, you know, like, I'm keeping it cool when I'm doing my day-to-day thing, all that stuff just comes out. It just, it just breaks loose, right? Because in order to be healthy, you have to get rid of the ill, right? And that is what Jesus is for people, especially in that moment of, like, coming back to God, is Jesus has, so it's like tuning for it, right? Like, you got a big ass tuning fork, and you got another tuning fork, and they're both designed to vibrate at the same, at the same, at the same frequency, right? So you got one of them, it's like, it's a big ass, you know, it's like, it's big as my arm tuning fork, right? And that motherfucker is vibrating. Now you got a little one that fits in your hand, now that little one has been dunked in the bud, and all that blood is like, taped on, right? All right, so here's what happens. You get that little tuning fork, close enough to that big tuning fork, and that little tuning fork is going to start to fucking calm and vibrate, and then all of that dirt is going to like, get shook into top top, right? Like, everything is going to break loose off of you, whether you want it to or not, when you're in the presence of the thing that vibrates. And as, as a person, Jesus, like, at the, at the like, at the like, going to the pearly gate, eating God level, Jesus has that power, like, that is, that is the healing and, and even, even in the mundane, like here on earth, that is power of connecting with Christ, of like, the more you connect with that tree, then the more everything is going to come off you and get a lead towards your greater health. Now, Jesus, Jesus says, and this is, this is one of those things that people get really hung up. He says, I am the way, the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father but to me. How in the world we're currently living in, Jesus is, Jesus is that for us. There is no other person who in our era of history has the role that he has of being a placeholder, being a bridge. Now, don't get me wrong, because I'll spend more of my day quoting Tabuta than I will of Jesus because when it comes to the work, Tabuta was a great public speech and the, the Buddha did very important things, the Buddha came before Jesus, the Buddha was helping pave the way for what he had to. But Jesus and the Buddha taught, like, when it comes to like, when it comes to like, learning the lessons with Jesus' teachers, they're teaching the same message. And because of the way that, the way that Jesus' message has come to us, we don't get as much detail from Jesus as we get from the Buddha. So it's like, okay, here's the, here's the introductory lesson from Jesus. Now here's the rest of the book when you go to the Buddha and you actually start learning, start learning the lessons there. But, all right, so way back in, way back in the Old Testament, when Moses is up on the mount top and he finds that burning bush and he starts talking to God, he says, who are you? And that burning bush speaks back to him and it says, I am that I am. So when Moses is talking directly to God through a burning bush, and God identifies as I am, and when Jesus says, I am, Jesus is not saying, I need Jesus, the guy that you have lunch with is like the ultimate form. He's saying, he's saying, what's coming out of my mouth is the same thing that was talking, like, what talks? Like, and he, this is all detailed in the Gospel of John, at some point I hope you will read the Gospel, but Jesus, Jesus is a conduit for the same I am of God that was coming through Moses up on the top of that mount with, and he met God way back then. So it's not, it's not, again, like I started off saying, like Jesus doesn't want us to worship him, wants us to follow him, because he makes it very clear in other things he said, he says, you know, if you have, if you have a little bit of faith and you follow me, everything that you have seen me do, you will do and greater things still, like you haven't even seen everything can do, like if you think that I can do everything that can be done, no, I haven't shown you all tricks in the bag, like there's more, there's more to it, but for now, like this is, this is sufficient to like, you know, because his message was to try to hit, okay, so here's the thing that happened with Moses back in the day. Back in the day, Moses succeeding, and a lot of this stuff may be metaphorical, but I'm telling you it's not, Moses is leading the Hebrews from Egypt back to the promised land so that they can, so that they can take through, and there's a point there where he's up on the mountain or whatever, nobody's listening to him, everybody starts to mission because people be visioned, and they start being attacked by, by vipers, like these snakes start biting people and like, suddenly fucking vipers and start killing people, right, and so Moses goes to God and he's like, what do I do, how do I, how do I save the people so that they don't get killed by snakes? God says, erect a cross and hang a brass surface on it, and they tell the people to stare at that snake on the cross, and if they do, they'll be saved, and this is, this is like old stone age magic where, because when you're in that place where you're like, surrounded by all these snakes, if you focus on the image of the snake, same thing with the tuning fork, right, you like, think of that frequency, and then they're like, oh, okay, cool, you're cool with snakes, we're cool with you, no big deal, right? No sweat, no problem. So it's a magic trick that God teaches Moses to save the people, he says, get them to focus on this serpent, and then the snakes will stop fighting them, and anybody who won't fucking listen to you and trust you deserves to die, right? In the New Testament, Jesus says, I am that brass serpent for you. When it comes to the world that we are in right now, when everything goes fucking crazy and death is at your heel, you can turn to him on the cross, fix your gaze there, and you have nothing to see you will say. The vipers will not see you, you will not know to take a step, right? Like that is the salvation of our Lord Jesus Christ. Beyond that, it is not a, say, a blank check to just go to church on Sunday, call yourself Christian, and then just be an asshole, and be like, oh, well, you know, the whole church thing, it's like, nah, it ain't that, bro. The world that we live in is so out of line, and the lifestyle, Jesus didn't have a house. He lived at Simon's mom's house during the time of the gospel. He says, the son of man, you know, he says, foxes have their din, birds have their death, but the son of man has nowhere to lay down his head. Like, he comes from, like, he speaks to us of a truth of humanity that is, like, you can go out in the wilderness and just be at home in the free, you know, like, everything that you see will be given to you as, like, that's the reason that I went to walk halfway or third of the way across the country is because he said that whatever I needed would be provided, and I wanted to trust it. So I went and I did it, and guess what, it fucking worked. Yeah. But it only works if you believe it, you know? Like, that thing, is it like, seeing and believing? Well, believing is also tears. Like, it works, but it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it feeds into itself. You've got to give it, and again, like, this is, he would buy things with my inner alchemy, whatever, like, you've got to give it in order to get it. It goes up and comes down, and it goes both ways, but, you know, and, and so, like, the more you work with it, the more it works for sure. Um, but, so that, yeah, that, that's nice, that's nice. Well, I'll go a little bit, well, you know, I'll stop there, and I'll, like, I'll, I'll, I'll, I'll, like, have time to reflect on what I said. Yeah, I mean, it makes, it makes sense. Wow. Ooh, I am so happy to get to have this conversation with this man. Like, and nothing bad's gonna happen to me, but if I died later today, I would die a happy man having shared this with you, because this is, so, I mean, really, like, this, for me, this, this is the point of my life, is to share this, and to tell, to tell, to tell you, and to tell everyone else the things that I have to told you, like, that, that, like, that's the reason, right, like, that's the reason Jesus change occurred, is to tell people the things, you know, like, because that's what people need to know. Yes, and especially, especially at a time like now, that the third, the word, the word gospel needs to be used, and, but, but the translation, the word they used back then, we call it, we call it, like, so, you've probably heard of, like, evangelical churches, where people have been visualizing, so, advanced, the word evangelization is the globalization of a Greek word of Eungalia, and so, you mean good, like, Pudemonia is, like, in good spirit, so, like, Euphoria is, like, a good feeling, right, like, that, he, you, that he, he, good,ANGELIA, that's an angel, and what is an angel but a messenger, right? So he, Vangelia, you, Eungalia is the good message, so, so, so, it's, it's literally, like, so I've been, I've been thinking about that a lot during my retreat, about about you know like about about angels as messengers spreading the good news and earlier you described me as an angel and like for me this is my chance to be an angel as far as being a messenger and you know and evangelizing or spreading the good news like about about God and about understanding like how this all settled in the person

Alright so we're recording now and usually I don't even do any preparation but to be honest we did a little bit of preparation before we hit record. So hi there everybody out there in the internet listening to Love in the Light. Maybe even watching it on YouTube now that we've got video recording. I'm Luke and over here to the other side of the camera is Sam, my brother. Yeah, nine years separated. Yes and currently a continent apart. Yes sir, yes sir, on opposite sides of the coast. I'm on the west coast outside of on the other side of the sound from Seattle. And I'm over here in Florida near the Panhandle in old Florida. So I asked Sam yesterday if he would be so kind as to come on my show and interview me so that we could talk about some experiences that I had last year and that I'm about to have some experiences I'm about to have in another week or so when I go on retreat. Yes, yes, yes, so tell us about the retreat that you're going to be going on. What is it? Yeah, well so it's called a dark retreat. I'm going to go into a room in a cabin and I'm going to be in complete darkness for about 18 days. The first time wasn't for as long. I'm kind of taking it step by step. But yeah, it's sensory deprivation and I'm going to spend that time resting and meditating and peering. I don't even know where I don't know where it's going to go. But it definitely it definitely unpacks the contents of the mind in very interesting ways. Very cool. Does that get boring? No. I've been on a bunch of retreats and there are times when I have felt bored but I would never say that I felt like boredom is the reason why I've wanted to leave a retreat. I've never really left a retreat but there have been plenty of times and I've had plenty of reasons to want to leave and boredom was almost never the one. So what like fear or like? No, not fear. Usually more of just like frustration and yeah, just like I don't know, even like a sense of unworthiness of like feeling like I'm not up to the task of like, I don't know, breaking through to some better, happier state of being. There's definitely like a you meet your own challenges in there and for me there's been a lot of sense of inadequacy or doubt or anger or frustration or yeah, I don't know, things like that where when I'm on a retreat and just like, oh, this is just so hard. It's just like, I'm just so miserable. If I just left and I just feel better. You know, with this last with the last with the dark retreat last time I left because I felt like, oh, like I feel great right now. So if this like if I could just feel this good forever, then that's fine. I'll just stay at that. And there were there were a couple of times before they weren't like, you know, just like it there's like there is just continual of like, oh, well this feels this feels good enough. Maybe I'll just stop here. So that's that like so it looks like now that I've kind of crossed that that threshold, there is the same sort of challenge but on the other side of things where before I wanted to leave because it felt too bad and now I want to leave because it feels good enough. Gotcha. So yeah, it's interesting that for someone on a normal life, you know, you might have thoughts that could make you feel inadequate, but then you could just go for a walk or talk to somebody where you're in there with yourself for an extended amount of time. Basically. Yeah, definitely. I mean, that's so there's a story from when from the retreats that I did. Let's see. This would have been back in. This is in 2015 and in the year of my first retreats. There was a young woman that I met before. One of the retreats is like she was coming from the airport and I wrote on the airport shuttle with her and I was talking to her and then at the end of the retreat we sat down and we talked again and she told me this story about how like in the middle of the retreat she was just like in her bedroom and there was this point when she just like she was just like would all of you people just stop being so mean to me and she realized like she's the only one in the room and that that that like that sentiment was a pattern that she had from her family life. Like, you know, like it was like she was at home dealing with her family and all of that and she realized like wait a second like that's the thing that's like totally me. That's my issue. That's inside my head. Like, you know, and I don't even, you know, to a certain extension, you know, like it may also be in the case that like the people in her family may not have been as as, you know, like they may not have been as judgmental or harsh to her as she was just assuming they were being because, you know, you kind of you get entrenched in your patterns of thinking and then that kind of creates the set for, you know, like how you see the world you live in. Gotcha. Yeah. So interesting. So tell me like, hmm, so how did you find this? So I found, do you mean the dark retreat specifically or meditation retreats in general? Because I have stories for each. Well, yeah. Whichever one you want to say first, I guess. All right. Well, I guess I'll, I'll do both. So the, so the, I've been, I guess I've been on three kinds of retreats. The first kind of retreat I've been on is on a vipassana retreat. So it's a 10 day silent retreat. Anybody who's familiar with the world of retreats probably knows about the going of vipassana retreats. It's, it's like the most widely accessible network of retreats in the world that got centers all over the country and all over the countries of the world. They don't charge any money to go. And so I learned about that because I had been meditating for three or four years on my own. And then our sister, Jessica, one day, she shared an essay with me that a guy that she knew had written about his experience doing a retreat in Europe. And as soon as I got done reading it, I was like, whoa, this is exactly what I need. And, and so I looked into it and, you know, they don't charge money. Like, and it's exactly the price that I can afford. So within, within a month or so of learning about the retreat, I went ahead and I signed up for one and three months later I went from Florida to Texas and sat my first retreat and then stayed at the center, served a couple more, sat another one, and then did another sit and serve. So in the first six months of my exposure to meditation retreats, I had sat three of them and served three as well. So I'd spent about three months at a meditation center, either sitting or serving retreats. As for the dark retreats, I learned about those at the end of 2019, because I had been contemplating, participating in an ayahuasca ceremony. And it's actually in, in that six months when I first started doing the, the vipassana retreats, I had been presented with a bunch of information about ayahuasca ceremonies. And I spent like a whole retreat, really just like contemplating the question of whether or not an ayahuasca ceremony was the right thing for me. And the answer that I came to was no, it's not, it's not. Why did you come to that answer? Well, I have, you know, between like, between everything that I've done and the dreams that I've had and the guidance that I get, like, I feel like I'm already on the track that I'm on. And I don't need that to kind of like push me higher, like, you know, to like boost my trajectory more. I don't know. And I just, I've got a lot of reasons. I guess, you know, part of it too is that Is it a substance issue kind of? Yeah, it is. Well, there's something in the substance of it. There's something in the culture of it. There's something in the cultural appropriation of it. You know, like, and I say that in the sense of, because I mean, I know that most of the people who do this are trying, you know, they have very good intentions around like trying to like maintain the cultural tradition that it comes out of. But at the same time, you know, like, and there's this guy that I talked to about this, and he, you know, he's got his own, you know, mystical stuff. And he said, you know, like, he has had to work with people to like expel entities out of their system that they let in in the midst of the ayahuasca process, you know, like anacondas and things like that. And it's like, you know, you're, it's just, it's just brew from the jungle. And people in the not jungle are taking this brew. And now they've got like jungle, they've got jungle creatures inside of them when they're living in a city. You know, like, it's a mismatch of like who you are versus what you're putting in you. And, and then, you know, you wind up with a rift of like, how do you be you with an anaconda inside? You're not, you're not living in the right world for this medicine, you know. So, like, why would you take malaria pills if you don't live in a place that has malaria? Now you've got all of the symptoms of malaria pills with none of the benefit. And introducing an invasive species or something. Yeah. And also, you know, like, I don't know, some of this is just like retrospective. But for me, you know, the dark retreat that I do, like it's just me in the room alone. And ayahuasca ceremony, you're in a, you know, you're in a tent or you're, or whatever, you're in a space with a whole bunch of other people. And, um, I don't really want my bubble getting so tangled up with so many other people's bubbles when you're in that kind of like open vulnerable space. Because you don't really know how much of what, you don't really know how, you know, and that's actually, so what I do know about the retreat that I'm about to do is that there's going to be someone else in that cabin who's also going to be doing a dark retreat at the same time. It'll be interesting to see. Again, the same, in the same room as you? Not in the same room, but in the same building. Okay. So I don't know how, I don't know if she's going to be on the other side of a wall for me or if she's going to be on the other side of the building for me. But yeah, I don't know. It won't be like co-mingling though, will it? No, I don't think so. Yeah, I don't think that we're going to have any interaction with one another. But we are going to be doing the retreat concurrently. So, yeah, I don't know. But anyway, in that, in the ayahuasca ceremony, you know, there you've got, you know, like a dozen or more people that are all, you know, in this highly altered state, simultaneously, you know, over the course of a weekend and like sharing their experiences and doing all of those things. And honestly for me, like, you know, like, yeah, I don't want to be sharing my experiences. And, okay, so here's another thing about me and my experiences is that in and this was after the retreat when I was contemplating the thing about whether or not I should do an ayahuasca ceremony. But I did a breath work ceremony in a workshop space with like, you know, I don't know, 10 other people or whatever. And in the process of that, just like, I was wailing and grieving and banging my hands and doing all these things and like the I don't know, like the stuff that comes out of me isn't, is, you know, like for a lot of other and I've really experienced this on the West Coast, you know, like the issues that I have to deal with make other people very uncomfortable. Like they're not used to like the levels of intensity and anger and trauma and grief that I've got coming out of me when it's on its way out. And so, you know, as much for my sake as for others, you know, like it doesn't feel like I would be helping them by helping myself in their presence. Now, really though, I guess, so prior to that retreat, I don't remember exactly how prior to it. At some point, I had had a dream that an archangel came to me and gave me a sword. And when I was in that retreat contemplating doing an ayahuasca ceremony what came to me was that if I've, if I'm already in a place where I've got archangels giving me swords, like I should be able to I should be able to get there without without ayahuasca, like in a way like ayahuasca might, you know, like, I don't know, be like breaking my truth or something. I don't know. Do you feel like you have to go about this on your own? Like, is there any type of collaborative, like, obviously, like you said, this is a darker retreat you're there all by yourself, but is there anyone there that, like, kind of helps you unravel it at the end? Or, like, Well, so there, so at this, at the place that I'm going to, there are going to be people there. I guess I could talk to them. I don't know how much I'm in the need to talk to them. I have gotten pretty good at kind of going things alone. In fact, some of the, one of the teachers in particular that I met in my Vipassana years, you know, he kind of, he straight up told me I was visiting him at his home in Arizona and we were out at lunch one day and he was like he was like, you know, apropos of basically nothing, he basically said, you know, like, look, Luke, you're going to have to be your own master when it comes to these things. So, going back to the ayahuasca and the dark retreat, I had been contemplating this ayahuasca ceremony that would have been at the end of February in 2020 and in the run up to that period, I was doing a bunch of, you know, research, watching YouTube videos and really, you know, like second guessing myself, you know, like, do I really want to be doing this because I know that I don't and then one day a YouTube video popped up and it was basically like how to experience DMT without taking any drugs and I saw this video and it was about doing dark retreats. So, according to Montagcia and all of these things, like, so inside your brain, you've got your pineal gland and once it so it regulates your melatonin and once you've gotten enough sleep and enough rest and you're in this darkness for so long, then it starts to up-regulate your melatonin to another thing and then it starts to up-regulate that thing to 5MEO DMT and then it starts to up-regulate that to DMT so basically at a certain point somewhere between, you know, like day 5 and day 9, you kind of switch your hormones kind of switch you into trip mode and so you start having visions and you're not, you know, like food and water, there's no drugs involved and so you kind of enter that into that visionary state and that was definitely that was my experience in the third retreat last year where I entered into that visionary state and then I was able to understand things about the way that my mind influences my visions that, you know, I've had some experience with psychedelics in the past that, you know, everything, like when you take a dose of, you know, mushrooms or whatever, you know, you're getting all of it kind of boom at once but with this it's just a little bit at a time so you're kind of walking your way in instead of blasting your way in and with that, like, you really, for me, I was really able to like comprehend what I was seeing, why I was seeing and how my mind was creating creating, I don't know, I guess the matrix of vision and so yeah, so for me, this feels very much like the right thing for me to be doing because I've already learned a lot from it and I definitely feel like it's just part of my calling, my path, you know, the funny thing about this upcoming retreat is that I was at your house and you just moved into this new house and you've got a shed in the back and you've got like a room on your back porch and I was like, hey, that's cool, I could turn one of these spaces into a dark room and I could use this for a darker tree and for a couple days you were open to the idea but I knew it wasn't going to work out and one night I was on Facebook and my friend who, well, not even a friend really, she's an acquaintance, I met her years back and she moved away a couple of years ago but she posted on Facebook like, hey I know I've been off Facebook for the past few months but I'm down in Oregon doing these dark retreats and if anybody wants more information let me know and so I messaged her and we started talking and she gave me the information and then the very next morning you're like, yeah, I don't think we're going to do that here and I'm like, yeah, I don't think it's a good idea and so I messaged her and I sent the guy I sent an email to the guy who runs the retreats up there and it was just like the perfect timing and then I had told them I wanted to go for 14 days and but I didn't know exactly what 14 days so he had blocked me off in the calendar for the first three weeks of March and then a couple weeks after that I have a Skype call with Daniel Ingram who's a meditation master and we're talking about things and I tell him about my dark retreat experience from last year and my upcoming retreat in the 14 days and I ask him if he has any advice for me and he says, yeah I advise you to stay in for a little bit longer stay in for you know 17 days or more but don't stay in for more than 20 days and while he was saying that you know like my my inner like 18 18 was the number that was coming to me so that night I send an email to the guy you know up here in Oregon where I'm going to go and I said hey I want to change my retreat from 14 days to 18 days and he emailed me back and he's like okay well what days do you want and by the way I already gave away the 20th and the 21st so he had me blocked out on the schedule for the first through the 19th and I'm like well the first through the 19th because if I come in during the first and I leave during the 19th that's 18 full days so literally like it's another one of those like the stars just aligned you know interesting yeah just laid itself out perfectly just laid yeah just just the door was just waiting for me there to walk through so so yeah it definitely feels like it's you know it's it's very much on my path for me to to go into to do this and you know from the conversation I had with Daniel and from some friends that I have that I do you know reiki work with and that you know like get psychic messages that kind of thing you know people that I talk to you know like there's there's a lot of very positive potential for me with this with this upcoming retreat I think so I'm very excited about that well so I think that kind of leads into one thing I was kind of wondering like what is it that you're like trying to get out of these retreats um well so there are there's okay so in in the first in the first three months of my retreat life back in 2015 I was doing a bunch of studying and I came to the conclusion that uh what is important about meditation is the traits more than the states now don't get me wrong states are amazing and I'm getting to that point in my life now where you know like cooler states are opening up in ways that haven't before but you know but it's kind of like you know it's kind of like uh you know like people that go and do an ayahuasca ceremony every year or every six months or or or whatever you know like if you go and you have this experience but you don't actually like take any lessons getting long not getting anything super long lasting out of it kind of or so the thing is is it so like you'll go in there and you'll get a life lesson right and and really you know and this is my understanding and then and then the key to it is is that until you've really taken that life lesson and made it your lifestyle that you don't need to go back in and get another lesson you know it's like why would you know if you haven't passed the first grade don't go to the second grade you know um and so so that's the thing is that these these these states can be an opening for the transition of traits like it's so so ultimately like for all of these meditation retreats and all of these things that I've done you know it's about it's about me being more of who I am with less of my baggage with less of my bad habits with less of my bad attitude with less of my reactivity like trying to be more truly myself without all of the garbage that I carry around you know I mean it's it's you know almost impossible for anyone to see themselves but you know you've known me for your entire life and I think particularly over the past 10 years you know I have changed in various ways and and for me you know one of those key external ways that that is very true is just my sobriety you know like I I have I have positive things that have changed about my life and a lot of those positive changes I credit to the time that I've spent practicing you know contemplation and reflection meditation and and and I've just I just am a happier person much more consistently now than I ever used to be before whereas you know in the past I used to be a pretty consistently like depressed person so more than anything I think that that is that that has been the lasting benefit and the reason why I keep doing these things and you know going for you know this this next retreat and the retreats to come after are you know I want to okay so here's the thing about the dark retreats the the dark retreat like my goal right now is to get to the point where sometime in the next several years I can go in to a dark retreat and I can stay in for seven full weeks for 49 days and there is a process called the bardo in the Tibetan tradition if anybody's heard of the Tibetan book of the dead the bardo period is the transition between death and rebirth and in their metaphoric system of these things that process takes seven weeks and it's when the soul of a person leaves the body and has all of these different experiences until it decides where it's going in the next life and doing this dark retreat for that period it's a training because so there's there's there's there's there's I think it's called rigpa there's the natural state which you know we would call nirvana or or god or whatever it's like it is the light and there's this moment that occurs in that in that in that bardo process where you come into the into the natural state of of the pure light and there is the potential to to kind of like synchronize with that state and then and then you're not you're not pulled by your desires or your fears into like into the next rebirth so it's like a kind of a what like a recalibration of yourself because I mean obviously you're not going to when you're not going to like ascend into the ethereal abyss from going into a room for 49 days but like your your soul will kind of right it basically you get to a point where I mean I don't know I don't know where I'll get until I get there but it seems like you know like so the sense of karma of cause and effect like you kind of get to a point where you're no longer pushed around by you know I mean like we're we're we're we're ever so often like we're pushed around by our hunger we're pushed around by our our fears or our desires or whatever you kind of get to a point where like none of that stuff can do anything to you anymore like you you you know that you've got everything that you could ever want and you've got access to it whenever you want it so there's nothing that there there is no sense of lack there is nothing and there's no sense of like fear because you know like once you've got that like nothing no one can take that from you you know so like there's no sense in getting mad at anybody or getting hostile about anything because it's so okay so here's the thing there's a there's a there's a quote that is that you know like the person who person who doesn't know anything has a whole lot to say but the person who really knows you know they they you know mom's the word so right now I'm using a whole bunch of words to describe something that you know I haven't I haven't I really don't know but but for me in the process from you know from then till now and now till then definitely you know like I do feel like there has been there have been changes in my traits such that I am able to be a more wholly present and sincerely myself with the world that I live in and the people that I interact with in a way that I feel you know creates you know it helps it helps to engender a more positive world around me you know so so that's you know and and and you know and it's like you know everybody's got their thing you know some people like to go on you know like surf vacations or you know or whatever you know and this is this is kind of this this has kind of become my thing I like to I like to go on retreats and and and dig stuff up cool so so you said you're gonna you're gonna shoot for 18 days what's the longest amount of time you've done prior well so as far as dark retreat goes the longest retreat I have done is 8 and a half days as far as retreats go period I did an 18 day self retreat back in back at the very beginning of 2017 so um yeah what was like um what was the how do you think you'll feel differently from like 18 versus 8 and a half I you don't yeah I really don't know but you know when the conversation that I had with Daniel left me feeling pretty confident that it's possible that I could experience stream entry which is the first path of enlightenment so I very well may uh have kind of an experience where like literally just like everything goes black time ceases to exist and then the universe kind of restarts and I'll have had like an experience of like non dual awareness and and in that whole like shut down restart cycle that happens like you know my understanding is is like some of your wiring gets like plugged in in a way where just like the way that you feel and perceive the world just it's permanently different and some of the stuff that used to rattle your cage just just those chains just aren't connected anymore um so so that's that's definitely that's that is a possibility um other possibilities include um I don't know you know just like honestly the visions could get to the point where you know just like it's like I'm like watching a TV in there just inside my own mind um possibly you know like cosmic consciousness just like becoming the universe um one of the things that somebody was talking to me about was um seeing my higher self like so I guess you know like having an experience of becoming aware of what my higher spiritual form uh you know is and looks like uh coming possibly you know coming into contact with beings uh you know spirit guides or um even you know possibly you know coming face to face with some pretty uh malformed beings that we might consider demons or things like that I mean that really the the range of the range of what could happen is pretty wide are there so obviously like you said there can be dark times um are there like bad like permanent stories out there of people who have gone into darker treats and like you know like you hear about someone who has a acid trip and then they're kind of like mentally broken forever obviously like you said there are no substances or anything like that but is there like are there any stories of someone who's like come out in a negative way ever really I don't know um I haven't I've looked I you know I haven't been looking into other people's experiences with dark retreats since I did my own dark retreat last year I've kind of gotten to the point where it was like well well no not even spoilers spoilers just kind of like you know before I had done it I wanted to know more about it because I hadn't done it yet but now that I have done it you know I mean I'll be honest with you after the conversation with Daniel uh there was a little period of time there where I was starting to have my own doubts I'm like you know like am I am I pushing myself to the point of crazy because this can get pretty pretty weird and and and and and you know going going from how far I've gotten to that you know like first step of enlightenment kind of like there is going to be some pretty challenging times in between there and and and there is that question of like am I you know am I going to crack under the pressure um but I have a friend who she had you know she had she had a bit of a breakdown she wasn't doing dark retreats or anything but she had a bit of a breakdown um in a longer retreat that she was involved in but you know after a couple years you know she recovered from that and she's doing pretty well now um it's I don't know I feel like it's a gamble worth it's it's a bet worth taking um because um a lot of times to like those those things can happen because there is you know because because because again you know like this whole process you're dredging up um old traumas and old traumas and things exactly and so um you know there there might be something that that shows itself in there that that needs the time of you just like not being fully engaged in like the outer world and like you know holding and healing that that part inside of you that feels that that brokenness you know until you're able to heal it or release it or or whatever um the one of the things about the so the studying that I've been doing uh again so I've been rereading the the Zogchen PDF on the on the dark retreat process um you know so it kind of describes it as like there's just like psychic wind energy you know and and it's and then there's so there's there's that that that rigpa that like natural state that like enlightened and just like pure just like pure being and then there's us over here and in between there are there are all of these like layers of obstructions and the visions that we have the memories from our lives or past lives or whatever like all of these different all these different things that we might experience or see like those are actually obstructions between where I am now and where and like the primordial state and and that it's so there's this flow of energy in between and it's kind of like it's like hitting a curtain and then that curtain creates that vision that you're seeing and so the key the key thing one of the key things that's pointed out in this text is like you got to drop you got to drop all identification you know like you might see things from your own past you might see things from past lives you might see things from out in the universe you might see visions of the future you know blah blah blah blah like whatever you're seeing like remember like that's just that's you know like that's just that's just a blockage between you and the truth like that like it's a process of like don't grab on to that even you know like however pretty however cool you know like whatever you know like that experience that vision that thing whatever it is like don't grab it you know like don't make it yours you know like so one of the concepts that I've been rolling around in my mind a lot lately is called it's I think it's from Thai it's my ne which is to say like I don't know you know like so instead of like fixing to like oh well this is the this is this is the true thing this is the right thing this is the way of it you know like because that's what people do with people you know like people tend to you know like have just enough experience that they attach a belief to the world as they understand it and then they use that as their point of reference you know it's it's kind of to say like okay well you know let's just keep the doors open to everything without having like a one truth okay so you build a foundation off of that kind of right because you know I guess you know the what what the you know and this is a Buddhist teaching and also the evidence of our own senses as we understand the world scientifically you know ultimately everything is always changing mm -hmm so so so what is true is you know that like you can't there's there is no there is no solid underneath you know like at the core at the core of things there is simply change you know so so so the best way you know so the best way to like have a solid foundation is to always be open to that changing experience interesting but then at the same time you know that being said you know like the so you know after I got done with my retreat last year you know and the I don't know six nine months afterwards like the amount of like emotional release that that happened for me you know like there were there were times when I would just like wake up in the morning and just like fall to my knees and start wailing and grieving you know and there were conversations that I had with my dad and conversations that I had with not my dad our dad with dad and you know and just like there were there were lots of lots of things that came up and came out of me in in in the time after the retreat that I was like processing all of these things that I had been holding on to some of them consciously some of them you know subconsciously but yeah there's definitely a you know it's kind of like that that time in retreat it it loosens a whole bunch of things up but then you know like in the time out in the world then after that like the change keeps going you know it's a matter of like kind of how the the metaphor that's come to my mind right now is it's like you know say you buy an inflatable pool you know and so you take your inflatable pool out of the box and you unfold it okay well great your inflatable pool is now unfolded but it hasn't been pumped up yet you know and so and so kind of like that was the process of like okay in that retreat I took the I took I took this inflatable pool out of the box and I started the unfolding and then in the time afterwards like that's when the inflation kind of started to happen and and and then I got to kind of see you know like what the changes were that came from it over time as it kind of expanded into okay well here's here here are the changes that you're you've experienced as a result like so what I know what I know now is that whatever happens in that 18 days in the retreat like that's just a preliminary to what that means for me as a person over the next year and then what that year means you know like how that informs you know the rest of this lifetime or whatever very cool so like how much time do you plan on doing the like how much time do you envision yourself letting the air fill up before you go back in like do you have like so you mean between this retreat and then and and the one that comes so the 18 days it starts on March 1st first you know as compared to you know like the next time I go in taking that next step towards the 49 days how long do you think you would need are you going to go straight from 18 to 49 no no no no no I imagine I imagine that I would go there would be at least one step between the 18 and the 49 like so so there's 18 and then I might do like a 30 or 35 and then after I've done that then do the 49 so I would imagine that there would be at least one more retreat between the 18 and the 49 how long I really don't know you know I mean I was I wasn't even really sure about doing this one until the thought came to me at your place to do you know like so what that was that was January so you know I didn't have it in mind until January to do one this year so it could be a matter of you know so in the past with my Vipassana retreats I did I was kind of doing a retreat every fall and so right now it looks like I'm doing one of these dark retreats every you know end of the winter beginning of the spring kind of thing so so you know who knows maybe you know maybe in you know February March of 2022 I'll go and do another one or maybe I'll wait a couple you know I really it's way too soon to say because I don't you know I don't plan my life out that far yeah no I was just wondering like um like would too much and too rapid of a succession be too much yeah no I think it definitely I definitely think it could be you know I would definitely say that for me you know even just from the first retreat you know like I wasn't I wasn't done with just like shaking the heavy shit off of myself with that whole process until like November December well so yeah so and especially given the fact that you know like this is going to be you know that much longer of a retreat yeah I mean I would definitely I definitely wouldn't I wouldn't I wouldn't assume that I would be in a position to repeat the process for at least a year again you know before before I went in and like started doing more I mean but then again you know like who knows it could be a case of you know like I might have this kind of breakthrough experience and then you know it I don't know at this point it's all just speculation what are some emotions you have like you know you're got like about a week or so until you're going in are you like excited are you nervous are you scared or like what kind of emotions are you feeling right now I have been I have been excited I have been nervous I currently I'm I mean yeah I'm looking forward to it there's a little bit of you know I just spent the weekend working and I've got I've got the process of packing and you know sorting my things and packing and figuring because what I what I what I am thinking of of as I as I you know move towards this step of so right now I'm in Washington I'm gonna drive down to Oregon to do the retreat and then after the retreat is done then I've got a decision tree that I haven't really filled in yet of do I come back to Washington or do I continue on south and start to make my way towards New Mexico now for one thing it's it's colder in New Mexico right now than it is anywhere else and so part of me is thinking okay well maybe I'll go to Arizona go see go see our sister and hang out you know down near the Mexico border in Arizona and wait until it warms up into spring a little bit more before I go to New Mexico to kind of settle in I honestly you know just like I don't know so there's the process of like figuring out like okay if I'm gonna hop in the car and head down the road and just stay gone like what do I need to pack to take with me so that I've got all of the basics covered so there's a little bit of that whole process of like oh shit you know like I've got a week now between now and the beginning of the retreat to like organize my stuff and myself so that on Sunday I can drive down to Oregon and on Monday I can start this retreat so you're more you're not concerned about going in you're just wanting to be ready when you come out basically well yeah I mean it's a process of you know getting the material things that I need for myself while I'm in and after I've come out together yeah so that's the tricky thing like when I'm asked how I feel I take that you know I tend to take all questions pretty literally and so right now I'm not having too many emotions about what is yet to come because it's just not where my head is at this minute but I don't know like feeling I'm feeling excited I'm feeling a bit elated I'm really I am really it's a really it's a really cool experience you know from what I had last year and and I'm looking forward to yeah I am I'm looking forward to that and I'm excited about that again for sure yeah I'm excited for you seems like you really enjoy this and seems like a good thing for you so yeah well and so that's that's part of you know what what you know because we started we started this conversation earlier and the the connection dropped off and so we lost that lost that bit of the conversation what I had talked about there was how in the five years of vipassana retreats it took me that long to get to the point where I could sit through a retreat without just like being stuck in myself hatred myself loathing my misery and so now that I'm at this point where I can be with myself and not be miserable you know like it's it's great it's a lot it's a lot of fun it's it's really exciting so so yeah so there's definitely that that aspect of like looking forward to having a good time just kind of unpacking the unknown from within and you know and in the in the audio files that I sent you last night that I guess you were listening to some this morning you know like one of the things that I know that I have to look forward to is the the fact that when you're so when you're in and more so with the dark retreat then even with just like a regular retreat like your brain shifts modes you know because normally you know like we're taking in everything around us that we're seeing and and so there's and and and also you know with the with the with the other retreats you know like there are lectures there's instructions there's all of that with the darkness there's there's there's a lot less input and there's definitely a sense that occurs where your mind shifts from like digesting what is coming in to just kind of redigesting what's already there and so I would start to have memories where the memory could be you know something from my childhood or whatever and along with that memory I would be like oh shit you know like I haven't even thought about that thought in like like I can remember the last time I thought about that memory and so there's this whole process of like you know kind of like like I was talking about before you know like with the psychic wind and with all of these obstructions where just like the mind just starts to unpack itself in that environment where there is no distraction there is no input it's really just you know like it's just you in there just with your primordial self kind of going on do you ever record any of it like um like when you got out like do you start writing stuff down like or do you just kind of so what I did was I did make those audio recordings my friend Ruka was the one who was bringing me food and stuff last year and so she would she bring my iPhone and with the voicemails she would record me um I'm on the fence right now so I have I have what I need I bought a cassette recorder like so I can put tapes in it and hit record and uh so I can keep an audio log while I'm in there I'm a little bit torn about whether or not I will because in the in the reading of this text about the dark retreat you know it says like keep it like you know because that whole thing around like don't hold on to this truth or don't hold on to that truth don't hold on to this vision or don't hold on to that vision you know like really you have to just be in this just like let it go mind of just like you know just like let all of this stuff just pass through you and just move on um versus like grabbing on to it and then that like perpetuating the loop of the thing um so so I'm of two minds about you know like would I be would it great you know one yeah it'll be there will be some amazing stories to tell um and it would be cool to like keep track of them in in process but then you know and this this definitely ties in with other processes that I've been to been through in the past you know like there is a certain element of like when you shift that gear from like just being in the process to recording the process like that action alters the process mm -hmm so so I've got so I've got I've got a cassette deck that I can use to make recordings while I'm in there I will probably I'll definitely take it with me but I might not use it got you yeah I might just I might wait until like the very end and then use it to do like you know like an after-actions report of like this is what I can remember right now about this and that and the other thing but but yeah I don't know at present I'm feeling more inclined to not use it on each day while I'm in there because I don't want the using it to like slow my momentum one of the thoughts that's coming to my mind though that's interesting is like that's what I'm thinking right now but then so I had an experience when I was out in Wyoming in 2017 when the eclipse when the eclipse came through that went across the country I had been you know on Facebook in the like weeks leading up to it some of the people that I know were like oh like you shouldn't be watching the eclipse because it's like this mystical union and all of that stuff and so I was sitting in just like somebody was saying something about what the Navajo said about how you shouldn't watch that kind of a thing and I was sitting in my room meditating I'm like alright well I'll just sit here and meditate and just like see what the meditation experience is like during the eclipse and literally like I'm sitting there meditating and then just like this voice from it might not an audible voice but just like this knowledge whatever from inside says like if you're gonna see this thing you need to get up and go right now and I was like alright so I got up and I walked outside and literally within 90 seconds we went from like partial eclipse to total eclipse like like something inside of me was like the eclipse is about to happen and if you don't get the fuck up you're gonna miss the moment so yeah so so that could be you know I could go in there with this intention of like I'm not gonna record these things but then I could like have some kind of an experience and then that voice inside could be like you need to put this like you need to make a note of this right now and so I'll have that there to do in case I have that moment where it's like okay yeah this is something that that I need to know that I need to like you know capture now so that I'm not trying to like recreate it from my memories later yeah I mean 19 days is a long I'm sure you like you said you could lose momentum but you probably pick it back up but yeah I yeah yeah cool yeah oh so you're driving down and few days or yeah what how many days what is so my plan is to uh my plan is to drive down on Sunday the 28th and probably get like a hotel in Eugene and then on and then on the first drive from there out to so it's it's somewhere between Eugene and and the Oregon coast so yeah so probably on Sunday I'll drive down get a hotel for the night and then and then head from the hotel to the retreat site on Monday morning of next week cool cool so if it does end up um well I mean it's going to end up somewhere like um if this is intrigued other people to like want to do this what would you um where would you point them for information other than this like um well so what I've done is uh I have sent some of the people that I've talked to about this I've just sent them an invite to the Facebook page for these darker treats that I go to there are um you know like this is if you if you know if you if you're if you're you know on YouTube or on the internet or whatever and you start looking up darker treats you know like I was I was watching videos about these things before um and so you know there are places in Central America and and and obviously there are places in Asia and there are a few places here in the United States like doing a darker treat is it like it is more and more becoming a thing that you know people who are interested in these kinds of pursuits have you know like it's in the awareness out there now more and more and so there are there are facilities that are you know that are springing up to do it I even myself you know like I I like to imagine a future in which you know um if I if I do actually settle down in New Mexico that in the next few years I might actually be able to have a space where people could come and I could facilitate their their time in retreat um so really yeah I mean if you want to find out for me I can send you a link to or I can even put a link I'll probably in in the notes for the show I might put a link to that Facebook page for anybody who's interested um the place where I'm going they're renting a cabin like they don't own it all year round so they were they started renting it I think they do it every year now from like November through March or April or so um which is kind of the off season for that property um so but then there are other places that are just like dedicated to doing these retreats all year round and so you can reach out to them and you know and and uh and try it out I think for most people you know I don't know every that's kind of the thing everybody kind of has their own calling as far as like how much of that they think that they want or they can take um for most people you know like hearing about a 30 day like somebody who goes in for 30 days is like that's kind of like oh wow thing like a 49 days is is very very very uncommon and for most people you know um even 2 weeks like really you know that like 7 to 10 days for your first time is that's plenty like as discussed you know like that's plenty enough to unfold something that's going to take a while to uh to fill out and to like let it create the change in you that you're looking for very cool well um I don't really know how many more questions I have other than I guess this would have been something at the beginning but like other than like maybe like working out traumas like why why should someone do this well like you said I mean like you said to be able to get to these states of enlightenment and to be able to I guess it's um you know life life is full of mystery right like we there's there's a lot more to the world that we live in and the universe that we're part of then what we were raised to believe in school you know and and and for me you know like I think it was a quote from Plato or Socrates you know like the life unexamined is the life unlived and and for a lot of people you know like there's interest in you know like spiritual powers you know like clairvoyance and clairaudience and you know the ability to to do things that that that seems superhuman so these processes of you know like of getting into yourself of opening your third eye of seeking God or the truth or enlightenment or whatever you know like this is you know like this is a human pursuit it's it's a thing that people want to do you know it's like why do you want to go jump out of that plane oh well I want to go jump out of that plane because it's thrilling and it's it's something that I enjoy and and there's a skill in it that I could learn and it can help people change the way that they see the world around them you know like and so this is you know as much as I don't even know what spirituality as a word means you know like this kind of inner work is just it's what I have felt drawn to for great many years of my life and so I'm really happy to be in a place where I'm not just reading books about meditation experiences I'm actually you know starting to you know enter into the realm of being the experiencer myself and so I mean I think that's I think for anyone out there you know whatever their field of interest may be to like gear life in a way where you go from having interests in things to taking part in the things that interest you like there's definitely something that's very fulfilling about living a life that way you know I don't want to just be an armchair philosopher my whole life because you know to me like philosophy means the love of wisdom and so in order for me to truly become a philosopher I must actually come in contact with the source of wisdom itself in order you know like I can't just love a picture of it I need to like have that relationship so for me that's what this is all about yeah I think that goes to speak anybody even you know people who aren't watching this who are just like obsessed with watching like skate videos or movies or whatever like it's awesome but maybe it's time if you love it that much maybe it's time to just go do it yourself because you're like I don't know how many times you get but this for sure we know this is our time well so yeah so like so you know somebody who you know like say they love you know like chamber music and you know like you can listen to you can listen to violins all day long but until you actually pick one up and play it for yourself you know like there's a distance in that relationship and and you know and like and that's the thing about like the world that we live in right now is that you know like there's so much more recorded material that a person can spend their time engaging with whereas you know 150 years ago you know or whatever you know if you wanted to hear music you had to be in the presence of a musician you know whether that musician was you or someone that you knew directly or you were you know like literally in the same room as the instruments being played you know like you could read about it but you couldn't really experience it unless you were you know unless you were really there and and now we've got all this recorded media that keeps us comfortably so much further away from the thing that we really enjoy when yeah like the meat and the potatoes of it is like yeah you know like it's cool to watch people skate it's cool to watch people surf but it's that much cooler to be the person on the board you know it's great to listen to music played well but it's also great to like learn how to play the music you know like to develop these to develop these skills like that's that is the learning process and that is you know like life is not just you know what is it what's the sports I'm trying to think yeah oh anyway you want to you want to be a participant more than an audience or a spectator yeah right right yeah more than a spectator you want to be a participator so yeah life is not a spectator sport you got to get out there right yes life is not a spectator experience you actually have to do it yourself very cool yeah I think that's something that a lot of us like you said especially in this day of massive recordings like you could totally just live a spectator life nowadays but you can't let your life go by well and that's the thing too is like that you know because you and I've had this conversation with a friend of mine who you know like he loves music and when he hears himself playing music he gets pretty down on himself because like he's not he's not as good as he'd like to be and it's really hard to appreciate you know and for me like with my meditation experience you know like it's hard for a person to appreciate just how it's hard to appreciate like what you're doing when you have this vision of like perfection you know like be it skateboarding or whatever you know like oh well if I can't just like you know like I see the video where the guy lands the trick and it just looks perfect you know versus like going out there and like doing the falling and you know like making the mistakes and going through the painful process of learning in order to get to the point where you can do that thing yourself like nobody is just perfect out of the gate you know like there is a learning process that has to occur for everyone and because we live in this world where we mostly just see the end product you know like the going through the pain of learning how to do it yourself is like that's one of those key things that we you know that we don't always remember to appreciate I like it so yeah and that's perfect because I mean you're going into this and obviously you're not you are kind of just observing and spectating while you're in there and like but then like you said it's more important about what you do whenever you come out exactly yeah so like it's good to learn from other people but you got to take those lessons and apply them to your own life kind of totally yeah I mean that's the thing is like yeah I mean and I mean there are you know there are monastics who do make you know being well I mean even with the monastics though you know like the dedicated retreat period is really just like a season of the year and then the rest of the year the rest of the year is a time where they're you know they're living the lives in the monastery maintaining the property and doing the things and yeah they still have their daily practices but you know like those like intense periods of like extended meditation you know like those only happen in a certain season and I think honestly like I honestly think like that that is that's something for like the larger world to reflect on as well you know like we live in this world right now where you know like economically you know like the expectation is that there must be growth in every quarter but that's not the natural cycle the natural cycle is is that you know like the harvest comes in the fall and then the land lays fallow over the winter so you've got you've got half of the year there where you know you take the harvest and then things get a chance to rest before you do the planting for the next you know like there needs to be downtime in life in order to in order to allow for growth you know like we have to you know like we have to ebb and flow we can't just flow flow flow flow flow flow all the time so I don't need the the iphone 11 right after the iphone 10 and the 12 yeah like we don't have to keep right yeah yeah I mean I've gotten 8 right now so I'm like how many steps back in the cycle and you've got like a 6 or something yeah I'm still but yeah I mean yeah it makes sense you know you have to well there's there's there's a quote that I've learned sometime in the past year that you don't learn from experience you learn from reflecting on your experiences and so that's the thing is like if you're just go go go go go just experiencing experiencing experiencing and you never actually like stop to take stock of the thing that you've done and what it meant to you and what you learned from it and then actually you know like reflect on those things to learn that let you can have all the experiences in life that you want and it's not gonna it's not gonna have the same kind of change for you as as it would if you actually like had the experiences and then assessed their meaning you know you got you to take the time to reflect on those things and so yeah definitely for me you know like this the meditation and even if it's not something where I'm like actively like picking like oh I'm gonna think about that you know like some things you just think about because like they're just there and other things they just think that's the thing is like like what what needs to be seen kind of shows itself in that process yeah very cool yeah well seems like you're pretty ready for this I'd say thanks thank you for that I'm looking forward to it and I'm looking forward to being able to share about it after after it's come out but even again you know like like I already said you know with the caveat of understanding that like I'll have I'll have really cool stories about the states that I experienced you know in the immediate aftermath but I really won't know how it will have changed me until you know until a year or more has passed afterwards because that like filling in process is gonna is gonna be that's gonna be like a whole new a whole new or you know it's gonna be you know like the next step in the ever-evolving state of being okay I can't wait to talk to you you know on the when you say the 19th or the 18th 17th which I'll be coming out on the 19th you'll probably hear from me somewhere in the 20s okay yeah because it's because my understanding is that where the location where the darker street is it's kind of like a no-tech area I don't even think that you really get cell phone signal out there so it'll be a matter of me like getting back to getting back closer to the world and and and all of that before yeah I mean last year when I got out of the retreat after like day nine or day eight and a half or whatever like that night I like read a book and like as I was like going to sleep just like I could literally see like all of the text in the book just like flashing in front of my eyes just like as I'm just like laying down to close my eyes to go to sleep so my sensitivity levels after 18 days of darkness are going to be like ultra high yeah I mean like last year after nine days I went into like the little local like corner farm stand where there were like maybe a dozen people in the building and I could just feel everybody's like motion just like in that space and I was like whoa whoa that's a lot of energy for me to be like there's a lot of like there's a lot going on in that and normally and just like whatever but just like whoa there's a lot going on right there introduce yourself kind of yes yes it is it is you know like it's literally you know like you're in a very altered state after being in the dark even just for a week so after being in there for almost three weeks like I'm going to be re-approaching the world I don't know how I'm going to be re-approaching the world but I know that I'm going to be very sensitive to the world on the re-approach yeah well I hope it goes smoothly as possible I'm sure it will but yeah I hope that yeah and I'll definitely I'll definitely reach out to you and and you know let you know how I'm doing in the immediate aftermath and then hopefully you know sometime in the week or two after that we could maybe do a follow-up recording to kind of for anybody who's interested to learn more about what happened after this is all gone and occurred for my process definitely yeah we should definitely do that yeah cool alright well I don't know about you but I've got some stuff to get ready for I've got an appointment at 11 and I'm probably going to go take a shower and stuff before that so yeah I guess we'll just wrap for now huh oh yeah absolutely yeah I love you Sam thanks for being willing to be on the podcast not a problem that's my pleasure I love you too very much man alright I'll talk to you soon alright see ya

Music This story is called The Salvation of Gurujra. Gurujra waited patiently looking around in the forests. There had been a rustle of leaves and he was pointing the arrow at the bush waiting. However, when Gurujra looked there was no movement. Obviously it had been a mole or a rat. The animal must have burrowed itself inside the soil. Gurujra sighed. Gurujra looked around the forest once more and realized that waiting here was a waste of time. He would have to choose some other location. Reluctantly, Gurujra placed his bow back in his arms and moved on to another place. As he was walking, he heard a melodious chant from somewhere in the distance. Gurujra walked towards the sound. He found that it was coming from the temple in the middle of the forest. He, being a regular in the forest, knew the habits of the temple well. Today, obviously, was a special day for the God that the people worshipped there. The temple was thronged with people chanting Shiva Shiva Om Navashvaya Shiva Shiva Om Navashvaya It was a rhythmic chant. Gurujra listened to the chant for a few seconds. Then he shrugged. He had to get back to his work. Without the food that he hunted, his family would not have enough to eat. And so Gurujra moved on. Though Gurujra went deeper and deeper inside the forest, still he could not find enough for himself and his family to eat. Gurujra knew that going home with so little food was no option. So he went deeper and deeper into the forest. Though Gurujra had been a hunter his whole life, he had never ventured this far into the forest. This part of the forest somehow Gurujra could not explain it, but it was different. The trees quieter, the sky darker. Gurujra brought out his bow and held an arrow in readiness just in case. As he walked inside the forest, he saw a tiny pond in the middle of the forest. The pond had a refreshing cool water which reflected the multicolored evening sun. The sky was peeking through the thick branches of the surrounding trees and the overall effect was stunningly beautiful. However Gurujra was a hunter, not a painter. These matters of scenic beauty just did not enter into his mind. Looking at the spot, Gurujra smiled. It was a perfect place to hunt. Animals invariably would come to the pond to drink water. The trees would provide a perfect hiding place. Gurujra planned to hide himself in the branches of the trees and from there he would hunt the animals. Silently Gurujra checked his hunting instincts kicking in. After studying all of the trees he chose the tree closest to the pond because it offered the perfect hiding place and because the view from there would cover all areas of the pond. He was climbing the tree when scrap. Gurujra heard a loud noise coming from his waist. Gurujra hurriedly got onto the branch of the tree and looked down at his waist. He cursed himself when he saw his water pouch had been torn. Angrily he peered down and saw that at one place the bark of the tree was sharp. He had not noticed it and there the bark had scraped his water pouch and the water was leaking out. The pouch had already been leaking with stitches coming apart and seams and now the bark had finished the job and the water began steadily leaking out. But Gurujra was not worried for today at least he had found a place near a pond. He waited on the branch of the tree the water from his pouch slowly and steadily leaking and falling below. As he waited he remembered the scene from the temple that he had seen today. What words were the people there muttering? Gurujra had never studied books or scriptures in his life for his weight of life that was just not necessary. He could not even properly pronounce the words that he had heard the devotees say. Then he remembered Shiva. Yes that is what they had said Shiva. Gurujra being a man of the forest never understanding devotion or temples. These men were fools to worship someone more powerful than them. Why should I be like them? I will do the opposite of what they do. To pass his time Gurujra muttered vah she vah she vah she and sat on the branch of the tree. Gurujra's sharp eyes picked up a rustle of the leaves as he peered through the tree. He found that the leaves of the tree were obstructing his view. Gurujra plucked the leaves carefully and dropped them down one by one. Careful not to make a big ruckus or he might scare away any animal approaching the pool. He dropped the leaves down one by one making as little noise as possible. The rustling he found was another mole which had entered into its burrow. Gurujra saw the evening sun setting and slowly darkness gathering around the pond. The chill wind picked up. Gurujra shivered slightly but he did not dream of giving up his spot on the tree. All the while he cleared the place of any extra leaves which stopped him from being able to look around and muttering vah she vah she vah she under his breath the water from his pouch leaking out. In the first quarter of the night when the world was getting ready to sleep or at least that is what Gurujra thought he heard movement towards the pond. He quietly brought out his bow and placed his arrow ready to let go. He knew that he had to rely more on his hearing than on his sight to shoot correctly. Gurujra saw a faint silhouette of a deer approaching the pond. As the deer came near Gurujra saw a beautiful deer. He was surprised with himself till now he had never even once felt any animal as beautiful. For him it was simply a means of livelihood. Shaking himself Gurujra tried to pull himself together and pulled back the arrow and was about to let it fly. Gurujra had the fright of his life when this intelligent face of the deer looked up at him and spoke. Hunter please please do not kill me. Gurujra was shocked. He wondered whether some evil spirit had possessed him or possibly the deer itself was an evil spirit. Gurujra sat paralyzed with fear as he kept his arrow tautly on the bow unable to let it go. The deer saw that Gurujra was still having the arrow in his hands and spoke again. Please have mercy on me please please do not kill me hunter. Gurujra decided that he must be dreaming when he decided that there was nothing wrong in replying when one was in a dream. He said harshly why should I let you go you are after all my food if I let you go I and my family will die hungry no this is not right I have to kill you the deer looked at him with tears in its eyes what you say is true if you don't kill me your family would starve so please let me go now I promise I will come back and then you can kill me. Gurujra felt this was very funny he laughed in his course voice you I have to believe that you would come back Gurujra almost doubled over and laughed her seriously if I start believing the words given to me by the animals that I hunt I will remain hungry for the rest of my life no the deer said hurriedly that it saw Gurujra ready to lose the arrow you see I am a mother of a young deer I am looking for my child once I have met my child and my husband and told them everything I will come back to you I promise Gurujra could not explain it not even to himself but he felt that the deer was speaking the truth he was even more surprised when he found that he put his arrow away some spirit probably possessed him he was angry with himself for showing weakness go he said eerily to the deer go fast before I changed my mind the deer did not wait for a second chance as soon as the hunter put the arrow down and said go the deer shut off once the deer was away Gurujra sat on the branch of the tree wondering what had overcome him he was hungry because he had listened to the words of a deer if anyone came to know about this he would be the laughing stock of the village angrily Gurujra plucked the leaves of the tree moving them aside to see on both sides more clearly now more out of habit than anything else he muttered as the water from his pouch leaked another quarter of the night had passed this time Gurujra saw another deer from afar it was bigger and quite majestic Gurujra could see that it was a male deer he promised to himself that he would make up now for letting that mother deer get away this deer is as good as dead Gurujra thought as he had his bow and arrow in readiness long before the deer came near to the pond the deer bent down to drink the water from the pond but Gurujra could see that the deer was not drinking water for thirst the deer seemed to be looking for someone enough Gurujra scolded himself thinking like this will lead to starvation astonishingly this deer also spoke hunter i know you are hunting for me but please let me go i am looking for my wife and young child once i find my family i promise i will return Gurujra wanted to yell do you think i am a fool but somehow looking at this majestic deer he remembered the tear filled eyes of the mother deer and just could not bring himself to fire the arrow go he said unhappily he had no doubt in his mind that both of these deer were never going to come back and that he was making a fool of himself another quarter of the night had passed the water from his pouch had almost emptied Gurujra was afraid to come down from the tree for fear that he would scare away any animals coming near to the pond he passed his time as before mumbling vashi vashi vashi vashi and throwing the remaining leaves down to the ground this time he saw a female deer come towards the pond he was elated the mother deer had kept her promise but this deer seemed to be different no matter Gurujra brought out his bow and arrow for the third time again the deer spoke to him hunter have you seen my brother and sister in law i have found their child and have it with me the child needs to see its parents immediately Gurujra had had enough this time he was not going to be the fool the deer saw with widened eyes and the hunter meant to kill it hunter please do not kill me if my brother and sister do not know where their child is they would never know any peace think about the young baby deer please hunter just let me go now i promise i will come back after telling them everything Gurujra slapped his head hard he really wanted to punch through something but he knew that it was right to let the deer go he wished that whatever was possessing him would just go away he did not want to start feeling sorry or for killing animals despite everything he let the deer go and the deer skipped away at the beginning of the last quarter of the night with nothing better to do Gurujra continued what he had been doing the very last few remaining drops of the water from his bag falling down a trip by a little trip the night was drawing near to a close when Gurujra had the shock of his life coming towards the pond were one two three no four deer Gurujra blinked wondering whether or not he was really hallucinating now the faint light of the sky confirmed that indeed four deer were walking towards the pond picking up his bow and arrow had become second nature to him and now Gurujra found that he was so surprised he could not pick up the bow and arrow these four deer came before him Gurujra saw the first three were the deer that he had already met the fourth was a baby deer it was walking between its mother and father as the four deer saw the hunter they bowed to him Gurujra still did not know what to say gulping he stared at the four deer when the mother deer spoke first great hunter thank you so much you trusted me and let me go I have finished my duties and here I am I will keep my part of the bargain the aunt deer spoke next yes hunter it was because you let me go I was able to bring the child to meet its mother and father I too have come here to keep my promise the father deer spoke majestically we have all completed our duties you can do that which you wish the baby deer spoke last great hunter I do not have any family other than those here take my life too I also want to go wherever they go stunned Gurujra could not draw his bow and arrow the last quarter of the night had passed when Gurujra jumped from the tree and ran towards these deer who are you he asked in a tone of wonder you are not deer who are you Gurujra blinked when the four deer vanished from there standing in their place with a beautiful dark three-eyed god Gurujra could not explain it but he felt a feeling of bliss washing over him he felt free he was free the god smiled lovingly at Gurujra son your worship today cannot be equal to anything that has ever been done in my name Gurujra looked bewildered worship I he shook his head in wonder I I did not do any worship to you my lord the god smiled you have cleansed me with your water you have chanted my name you have honored me with my favorite leaves and fasted for the entire night this is the most perfect worship that I have ever seen Gurujra thought back and stumbled back to the base of the tree he had just gotten down he realized that it was the bill of a tree in the hindu mythology it is believed that the bill of the leaves are lord Shiva's favorites below it was a small linga now covered from the leaves that he had dropped down the whole night long the linga was also wet from the water dripping from his pouch Gurujra felt the understanding come over him va she va she va she when repeated over again became that same sound of Shiva Shiva Shiva Gurujra fell on the feet of Lord Shiva lord you have given mocha to a hunter like me for that I will always be grateful where Shiva smiled you are certainly worthy of it you did all of this on the one day which I consider most sacred it is maha Sivarathi for this Gurujra you shall attain salvation you shall always be part of me and in my world come with me peace and understanding came to the hunter as he followed the three-eyed blue god to kailash this story is taken from the Shiva Purana and it was shared online by S.A. Krishnan who enjoys reading these different stories and writing them out such as what I've read to you tonight her page is hindu mythology for next.blogspot.com and I'll post a link to the blog and to this story in the show notes thank you for your time and listening also in the show notes are a link if you feel inspired to support the show may you have a wonderful evening and a beautiful day you

Thank you for downloading Love and the Light. This podcast is my pleasure to bring you. In today's episode, we'll be listening to a recording that was made back in 2016 in a conversation that I had with Nirmala. Thanks to Nirmala's work can be found in the show notes, as well as information on how to support the production of this show. Thank you for your time and I hope that you enjoy the podcast. Whatever you want to speak about, wherever you want to go with this, if it's, you know, if you want to fight it off on a tangent, bring me back. Okay. Well, I guess I'll just tell you my story. The thing is I don't really have like questions. I'm not I like I kind of my thought was, you know, just to come and sit, you know, meditate with you or whatever, just kind of, you know, just be in the presence of whatever. I, it was probably in March, I put, you know, the picture of Ramana Maharishi, the one that that picture, I put that on the background of my iPad, and so I had that just kind of there. And then sometime in March, I don't remember when I woke up. So I have dreams. And sometimes I feel, you know, I just wake up knowing something or having communicated, being communicated something or just having a sentence or a message or a thing. And so one day in March, I woke up with living from living from your heart. And so I immediately jump on Amazon and I find your book and one other book. It's like living through your heart, living through the heart that Jesus gave you. I've ordered both of the books. I ordered gifts with no giver because when I was reading the reviews on on living from the heart, it said like, this is good, but if you really want to get them, okay, yeah. So I ordered both of those. And and I down in the Phoenix area. And I had finished the book that I was on and we were me and my sister were driving back home in the car. We went down to pedigree for the weekend. And and I was reading a little bit of living from the heart. And I was like, wait a second, he's up in Sedona, isn't he? And she and I had come up here to Sedona before. And I'm on my way to Yellowstone. And I was like, I think he's in Sedona. I wonder if I can reach him in your email is right there in the back of the books. I just sent you the email script. And the bigger, the bigger, the bigger trip that I'm on. So in the beginning of April, I had another dream. And so in the past, like two years ago, I walked from Florida to Arkansas and did the whole journey there. And I was at a point where I thought I was I thought I was just gonna settle down and maybe try to go to school. I just got I was I got a good job working as a valet at the Hilton thought, Oh, I'll stay here for the next year and just make money and either use that money to go to school or use that money to buy a piece of land somewhere. And in April, as I'm waking up, Lucas had to go. And I said, go, go. And I got up and I went to the bathroom and I went back. I went back to bed back into the tree. And I said, where am I supposed to go? And I saw this man's face. And he has like a like a stern countenance. You know, he looks angry, but I feel angry type deal. And and then it was like he turned away for me kind of like towards this group of other beings that I couldn't see anything. And clear as day it was go to Yellowstone National Park and stay there until you know. And so I'm very slowly making my way to Yellowstone. Along the way, I met up with this woman that I met in Taos last year. And we spent some time in Big Bend. And we went up to Truth or Consequences. And then I went to Patagonia and up to Phoenix. And then we both we came together and house out for my friends in Patagonia. And we spent another week there. She's back in Taos. And yesterday she was because she does you know, healing and reiki energy type stuff. She was checking in with me while she was in the midst of centering doing that thing. He showed up again. Like she he's the same the same the same man. Yeah, he's she saw she saw him last month when she was in New Mexico after we parted ways. And she was like, where should I go? What should I do? And boom, she saw him. She told me what she saw. And I'm like, that's my guy. So yeah, that's the trip on. And I just figured you don't you don't have a context for the face that you saw. No, she I have no context for the face. None. She she's seen him three times now and she has much clearer vision when it comes to that stuff. And last night, she saw him like up close and clearly. So odds are, if it's an actual person, she'll recognize them before I will. Come and I'm just wondering if I'll get a hit. But I'm not that psychic. So I don't I mean, I don't he long hair, short hair, I would guess short hair, no beard, dark, like a really dark complexion, like the whole like when I saw him, like dark was what I felt, but not evil dark. Just start just in just dark. Yeah. Yeah. And she got the impression that he was like Native American or something. I was gonna say that or the Indian. Right. But yeah, she at first, she she felt confused about that. But it was definitely more Native American than you know, for the Indian. Yeah. Right. I'm not as familiar with Native American spiritual, right? types. Yeah, I don't know. I like your, your sheet. Yeah, I, I use I had, I've had a really strong affinity to that. When I was like 18, I would go to the art museum in Richmond. Yeah, yeah, just I just saw. I wanted to get a tattoo on my back of it. This this face, you know, I mean, this, it's like, spiritual literature is full of those kinds of, you know, Romano appeared all kinds of people. And you know, people, I think was, was a Papaji that first saw him. And then it saw him, you know, as if he was right there, right, a conversation with him, and then traveled to South India and saw him again. So, you know, hey, wait a minute, you're the guy, you know, you're the guy that told me I should come here. And somebody else said, no, that's not possible. He hasn't left the mountain in 30 years, you know. And so they thought he was, you know, scamming man. And until they found out that it was, yeah, it was something more than just the, you know, it was more like a vision. We're, we're, you know, I often say that the thing that book that I haven't read yet, that the truth is what opens your heart and quiets your mind. It's what causes a kind of opening a softening expansion in our sense of self. And quiets the mind because no, it's like things become like choiceless choices. Choiceless choices is a really accurate, you know, thing for it. Because as soon as I had the dream, then, you know, I gave myself a week before I gave my two weeks notice at work. But, you know, what am I going to do? Right? I can't not do this thing. I mean, I've already hiked across the country on the guy who does the stuff. It's true, you know, you don't have kids, right? So you don't have you're not like walking out of some, right? Yeah, you know, true or obligation, right? So it was, I mean, yeah, I mean, what am I going to do? Not, not go Yellowstone, you know, not, you know, until I know and not not learn this, whatever this thing is, you know, am I going to spend the rest of my life looking back at this point Oh, what if I didn't? Yeah, for me, it was it was a choiceless choice. Yeah, I thought I pretended to think about it for a while, but there wasn't anything to think about. Yeah. Yeah, same thing happened for me when I met my teacher. And found that she was going to India. And I remember, you know, saying to people, India, why can't you be going to Italy? I always wanted to go to Italy. I never wanted to go to India. And now she's going to Italy, I mean, India. And at some point, it's like, I just suddenly realized I'm going to India. Didn't make sense. I was just split up with my first wife and had fought not really fought with her, but kind of argued with her so that I could keep the house. I was, you know, a one year into naturopathic medical school. And I guess I had no desire to go to India. And yet, I was going to India. And I gave away my house and dropped out of medical school and got on a plane, you know, to this place that I didn't have a strong pull. I fell in love with it when I was there, but didn't have a, wasn't, wasn't permitting before that. So when you, what did you spend most of your time there on Mountain? We traveled around India. I basically went wherever Neil was. Oh, for once I, once I got out of all my obligations, I just followed her around for, you know, turned out to be about six months. What year was this at? 19 and he said, So, and, you know, there's no, it's so, I mean, I've been talking just like this with people and all, you know, all different places in your spiritual journey. The one thing I can say is it's just a form, you know, who knows what this, what this experience will, will, how it will unfold. Right. And, you know, just to soften things, you know, you said, you know, I don't want to look back my whole life and think I missed the calling. You know, my sense is it, it, it, it, it adjusts. You know, I, I still remember the first time I ever rode in a friend's car who had a navigation system, you know, with a voice that would tell you where to turn. And I'd never seen him before. And I was like, Oh, that's cool. You know, and then, but then, that is where my mind works. You know, that's the, what happens if you don't turn where it tells you to. And it's an interesting question. He said, if you don't turn it, for a little bit, if it starts trying to make a U-turn, well, that didn't take the, you know, go, go where you're supposed to. And I said, well, what if you don't even do that? And he laughed and said, then it just recalculates a whole new route. So instead of taking you over the mountain, it takes you around now. You still go where you were, wherever you punched in. And so that, you know, it struck me, that's, that's a great metaphor for the way life works. You can, you can delay, you can detour. And actually, you know, if you're, even ultimately, maybe this lifetime, next lifetime, you know, you're meant to be with that teacher, if you're meant to have that connection. Maybe if you, if they're, you know, this is their last lifetime, the next lifetime, you're with their number one student, you know, somehow still the transmission happens as it was meant to. Yeah. So you can hold it lightly and follow your heart. It was also the American auto team. Yeah. Yeah, that is one of the things I've kind of been thinking and feeling lately. It's like, it's, you know, the whole, the whole process, you know, is organic. It's an organic process. It's going to, you know, the flower blooms when the conditions are right for the flower bloom. You can't, you can't create it. And there are those, you know, flowers in the jungle that only bloom once every 20 years. So we have a plant here that you've seen at this, that got it, you know, and they call it the century plant. Because it does bloom once. It's actually not a century that this kind of exaggeration, but it blooms once after about 20 to 25 years. Sends up this giant, you know, the plant, the big ones, maybe like this big, that will send up a 25 foot stalk at the top. This is huge array of yellow flowers. And then the whole plant dies. It was like one shot. It gives it off, it gives it all to that one flower. So sometimes I didn't know formulas. This is like that. Right. And then there's, you know, dandelions that come back every year. No matter how hard you try to get rid of them. Yeah. Yeah. Something I often say about karma is that something that just strikes me about it is that all karma eventually gets worked out. You know, people talk about karma because it's a big heavy thing possibly or, you know, this challenging thing. But hey, you know, sooner or later, you can hold it lightly, even if you, even if you get some heavy duty karma, it's okay. They don't work at stuff out. You have to, you have to hold everything lightly in this universe. So how about right now? It's this moment. This moment. It's a good question, isn't it? It's hard to ever put it in words. You almost have to step out of the moment to talk about it. That's that whole, that's that whole Christian, nerdy thing. By the time you identify the moment, you're already out of it. You're identifying. Yeah. It's been a good day. Yeah, I saw my sister and said goodbye and had breakfast with a friend that I met. Is your sister living there? She lives in Abbondale. Yeah, she's living there for the past year and a half. And yeah, so I spent the past few weeks with her. And then I went and had breakfast with a friend who I met mentally. I met, and he actually, I mentioned you to him and he apparently at some point he had a telephone mentoring session with you. What's his name? Mitsuaki Chi. I think I would remember that name, but I'm so bad at names. But to talk to him, you know, it's on the phone. He sounds like it's like a white guy. He doesn't have any kind of name. It does kind of ring about. Yeah. So I met him as a passionate retreat in Texas last year. And we stayed in touch and so and then on my way up, I stopped and sat at El Rock for a little while. And then I went to the chapel and did a rosary. And then I, you know, I got here a little early, but then I got here. You know, I feel, you know, warm. Because I don't have air conditioning in my car. So driving out of the valley and being up here, this is not now this is easy. Right. And you have two weeks that I spent down in the valley. And I was, you know, I was working, you know, day labor, you know, so I was like hauling trash out to dumpsters and stuff. So this is, this is just peachy. Yeah. Yeah. Came up here to cool off in my 90 degree heat. Yeah. This is this is way better than one of six. Yellows come will be a nice. Oh, yeah. Yeah. Actually, it's a good time to go there. Yeah. Elevation. Elevation and latitude. So yeah, I don't know. I just, I was hoping me and you, maybe having kind of that that darshan experience, you know, the transition, the lineage, you know, my sense of darshan is that it's just always goes both ways. Just we're all here to give each other darshan. And I think what happens, I mean, it's just something I was curious about and to be true, because I used to used to work a lot of groups. A lot, a lot, you know, about there, there are these solar energy plants that would be towering the middle and then all these polygons, they all aim at that spot. Right. They can melt salt with it. Yeah. And around the generator with the molten salty. Right. It's like when, when you put somebody up in front of in front of a group, it's like those are all the, you know, they're, it's all darshan. It's all the same consciousness, but it's all focused in on that one person. And man, you know, that person because it lights up like a like a like that, you know, or a melted salt, you know, it's like a thousand, couple thousand degrees of energy. And so when they look at someone else in the audience, it's like, you know, they get that. So it's, you know, I've seen it. I've been on both sides of that in lots of sub-songs where I sat in the audience and sub-songs where I sat in front. That's a lot of the power of that kind of darshan is if you can have that kind of focal point. So it's nice. It's good to be aware of it just so you can hold it and play me. That's my mantra. Right? It's genuine. It's authentic. It's real. And it's, you know, it could just be to attach it too much to the form, you know, to the body that's sitting up here. Yeah. I'm, you know, I've always been really attracted to teachers that act really ordinary. Yeah. Don't put out your ears in a kind of way because I think that's more authentic. Yeah. Yeah, I haven't been to a lot of teachers. I did see Alma last year. I mean, talk about an example of that now, or, you know, she did thousands of people already. Yeah. I don't know. Actually, I had friends that just saw her and they weren't very many. It was in Fort Worth, Texas. There weren't very many people there. I saw her in Atlanta. And this is the first time she ever come to Atlanta. It wasn't that. Oh, no. It was. Oh, it was years. Yeah. Well, it was pretty big. Yeah. It was like it was at the Airport Convention Center. Yeah. And for being a convention center that most people wouldn't even know exists. There were, yeah, there were hundreds and hundreds of people there. I had this, you know, when I got to the point where I was going to get in line to go up and do the hug, I had to wait for like 20 minutes to get through the line to get up there. So. The, I don't know, the moment they hit me the most was just at the beginning, watching the videos of all of this stuff that the Hall of Foundation does to help people. And then, and then, you know, they had, you know, the umbrella over her and the chanting and the pedals and all of that. And if it works, you know, yeah, it's, it's just flowing. Yeah, I guess the juice flow. And some of my current and, you know, she, she's been at that focal point for, I mean, if she wasn't pretty pure when she started. I mean, I mean, like with with Rahman Maharshi and, I mean, they get there before. Again, there's no formula. And even there is, you know, there's still all kinds of stuff that unfolds afterwards. Rahman I even spoke about that, you know, that, that, you know, there was a lot of unloading, you could call it, un-rattling that happened because, you know, the first, when you first got to Tiruvannamalai, to where, you know, to where he lived in Arnachala, he, he just didn't speak for like, I don't know how long it was, 10 years at least. And he knows what kind of cooking, you know, process is happening. Yeah, I mean, it isn't the only way to do it is to get up in front of a thousand people. That isn't the only source of that transformation. So yeah, there's this story of, I guess, I learned it through one of the articles from us published or something. Some it was like this, this Nepalese woman who went all the way down to Southern India and just lived in a little shack. And she just, you know, she just go sit and she, she just sit on top of the water, you know, just floating around. And then eventually, like a guy saw her out there. And then she got like a very small fall away. And then, you know, she just had like a couple of people that just, you know, kind of lived around her house. And, and then, you know, there was just like this one, this one guy who, you know, had spent like the last 15 years of her life with her, and he just maintained the property. And, and, and then, you know, and then when these other people came and visited this place and then they saw him and, you know, this Southern Indian guy, but his face, like he looked like this Nepalese woman just because of how, how long he been, kind of, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, I mean, it's, I think there's no former, there was a, when I was in Turban Library around when I lived, you know, you would hike up to, you know, one thing you could just hike up to the top of the mountain. And one day these young kids offered to guide me up in such a, to, to give me some rupees, you know, to do it. So they, instead of taking me up the trail, they'd be like, shh, shh, shh. And I was like, you guys, I'm like 40 and you're like 18. You can just look at, but finally we got up there and they, and they took me to see their teacher who was this little Indian guy who lived in a hut at the top of the mountain. And the hut was like the side of that hut. Right. And that's where he lived. And these, these young folks, you know, were his devotees and would bring food and water and stuff. And I got into Arshan with him. And, you know, in India, you know, if you, if you, you know, it's just kind of understood that you've been there for 15 years yet moved from that spot. And it's kind of understood it's just like the, you know, the focal point of the big crowd. If you sit in a spot like that, right, for that long, you know, it's like that, which is causing, which is affecting those, but it's either proof that you're pretty, pretty cooked or it is the result, you know, the result is that you're pretty cooked. Right. Yeah. Thinking of the cage, you know, you know, the people that we just go to each cave on the mountain, have somebody, have somebody get in there. You excited to get it? So what experiences? Like, if you, if you had like those kinds of like mystical experiences where you need someone or something or something happens and just like, oh, yeah, I haven't, I haven't, I can't, I don't feel like I've ever had besides these dreams. Well, right. Yeah. These are like guideposts just sort of like, do this, go there, you know, kind of a confirmation, but it's not, so it's not like an altered state. Right. So it's to this, you know, there's two ways to look at it. One is to make a big deal of those, of those experiences. Right. And probably there's some truth in that. But another way to look at this, I'll ask you some question. Are you aware of anything right now? I mean, I'm aware of all sorts of things. Yeah. Yeah. Gosh, what is that? Yeah. What is that? What's the weirdest? It's like, you don't, maybe you don't need a big experience. Right. I often use my glass of water, but I use the metaphor, you know, the single drop of water is wet. You can explore the nature of water. It's just a palm fall. You don't need, I mean, it's, it becomes very obvious when you're in the ocean, the nature of water. Somebody, if you're swimming out in the ocean and someone says, hey, is that water wet? It's like, duh, yeah. It's wet. Yeah, sure. So, but the nature of it is still there in the drop. So this way is, instead of waiting for it, it's a big bang, you kind of experience of awareness, you can explore it, you can find out what is, what is it, what is that even mean? Where? What is it that's happening? What is, where is the source of it? What is the nature of it? It's the quality of it. It's just as it is. And at first, those questions is, they're no words, there's no answers. Maybe never. But we're going to question ourselves, turning attention towards that. It's like the central mystery at the heart of every, I mean, it's there at the heart of every experience you've had even the totally prosaic ones. The times you stubbed your toe. The times you, yeah, the toothache. Yeah, there it was, that damn mystery. They didn't wait outside the door while you had your toothache. Right? It said, oh, toothache today, cool. Yeah. What else can you say about it? Is it, is it, here's a question. Is it discriminating? I'll run a simple test. How many fingers? Now how many fingers? Wow. I guess it's discriminating awareness. What, what do you mean? It's inherent in awareness itself. That it, I mean that's maybe even why we call it awareness is that it registers differences. Hot, cold, bright, dark, heavy, light. Even subtle differences, sad, happy. Yeah. So it's like inherent in awareness is this compassion. And it's incredibly fine. It varies on different parts of your body but your fingers can, I forget what it is, you know, you can feel something that's way thinner than you're in there. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, I've heard about that. Yeah. Yeah. So what is that? Distinguish when there's the tiniest little pebble inside your shoe. Right? You know, and if you shake it out and go, oh well that was nothing, but man I couldn't walk with that in there. Shut it. So it's one of the, like, awareness, discrimination. Another fundamental quality of this that's present in the Seedle job, present right here, right now in most ordinary moments is that it's empty. It's made up of space. It's awareness is spacious or you could say space is aware. So you can't really say, you know, it's kind of like water is wet and transparent. You can't separate out the wetness and just have transparent dry water. But they're both qualities of the water. Inheritance. So these are like inherent qualities of this ordinary way. Awareness. It has this emptiness to it. Another way of saying it is awareness always has dimensionality. It's never, like, so small it has no space. Awareness always has a kind of area to it. And like I said, the truth is what opens your heart, opens your awareness. So another, this is actually another aspect of it's discriminating, qualitative. It's that how big your awareness feels is always moving or shifting. And what it's showing you is how true things are. If I say to you, you'll never ever be happy unless you first make $10 million. And you try that out and say, right? That's an literal truth. The little bit of truth in there is that you actually could be happy if you had $10 million. It might not even be so bad, right? Right. But you can only be happy if you had $10 million. It's like, yeah, it's like try to live in that truth. So really a very small space. It still has space. There's still, you can think about it. You can actually consider it. But it's not very true. Right? I mean, it's so ridiculously not very true. It's almost like a joke. Yeah. That's what most jokes are. They take you along and then they say something that's so ridiculously not true that you have to laugh. Right? You know, your consciousness goes, why? And then you laugh because you get it put. It's a joke. No. And so, that's what, again, is both the spaciousness of the fact that it involves space and is connected to space. And the discriminating is the shift in how big it feels. You contrast that with, you know, the moment where, you know, whatever that really opens really expands in the moment. Whether it's the first time you take a great job or the first time you see the Grand Canyon or the first time you drop into some really deep meditative state and then submit it to space. We're talking, you know, maybe oceanic space. And that's both the nature of that awareness. It's just more of it. And also, like I said, it's discriminating and showing you how true that whatever triggered it. Right? It's not really the mushrooms or the Grand Canyon. The Grand Canyon is great because it is a physical, it's like the most profound experience of space. Except maybe if you got to go on the space shuttle or something. Go on a space walk, you know, then you're like, holy shit. We're talking space now. But on this planet, you know, the ocean, the Grand Canyon, again the first time you see those things and you go, holy smokes. You know, it's like your mind can't even take it in. So, you know, different degrees. Most people when they get to the Grand Canyon they go, and then they go, hey, I think we should need to get going now. Because it's like, it's like, it's really intense. So, those are three fundamental problems of ordinary awareness. It's always discrimination. Yeah, discrimination. It's always discriminating. Right? It's always registering what, I mean, if I look there, discriminates that. If I look there, discriminates that. I know that that's not a spider pit. I know that that's not a she-va statue. Even if I didn't have words for both of those things, I would know they weren't the same thing. If there were two things I'd never seen before, I would still instantly know they were different. And this extension of contraction is discriminating. It's almost like that kids' game where you say you're getting warmer, you're getting colder. It's like your heart, your essence, your awareness contracts. Not because it's wrong or bad. It's just, it says that small. You experience something that's more profound. More, it's all relative too. So like the first time you fall in love. It's like so much awareness. It's like really intense, even the awareness of your beloved. So intense because it's just something that turns the lights up inside. It's because it's something really profound, really meaningful, really true. So I'm pointing to these just because, again, it's a way you can explore awareness with whatever size it is. Whatever degree of, you know, awakening is happening in that moment where you're just, you know, awakening because you finally had a second cup of coffee or you're having a spiritual experience. You can't explore the nature of awakening at every point. Yeah, the nature of awareness, I have to say. Right. To me, I mean, I define awakening, I say it's always moving, right? And awakening, it's just when it doesn't move. And even that's always relative. I use the example of, I had a very, very small awakening in 1986 when the Red Sox lost the World Series in horrible, horrible fashion. I don't know if you're at all aware of that. You know, it was part of the curse of the Bambino. Right. I mean, in the World Series and during that stretch they lost in horrible fashion in 1986. And, you know, I had watched the World Series and then two weeks later, I was thinking about it and got really upset. And then, again, there was like this expansion of awareness and something and he said, what the hell? It's just a stupid baseball game. I'm like all upset. And they were like, I don't even play baseball. Right. I wasn't even in a softball league. No connection to it other than that, you know, I had worked for a while with some guys that were fanatic Red Sox fans and so I became a casual Red Sox fan. But I watched the World Series and then they lost in horrible fashion. Two weeks later, I'm like, what the heck? It's like, how can I still play? And something just like snapped. Again, like a light bulb. You know, the cartoons, like a light bulb went off and it was like this awareness of what here I was sitting here and I was sent over something totally irrelevant to my life. And since that day, I've never been able to really care about professional sporting events. You know, I just woke up out of that whole experience of being a sportsman. And like I said, it's a mini-waking. I'm not comparing it at all to a spiritual awakening. But we're, you know, our whole life is full of these moments where we're like, come on, we see something, we understand something, we have an open expansion of awareness. And our life is full of moments where naturally, appropriately, our awareness contracts. It's the right way for your awareness to respond. When someone says something, you know, I use that ridiculous example, even if you won't be happy unless you can win dollars. But all day on the news, there's people saying things that are very true. I think everybody you meet has their conditioned opinions about life and the things. One thing I always stress is that all there is is truth. So that this whole game is about experiencing different sizes of truth. But there's not something else. There's not something else called falseness. There's just really, really, really small truths. Dangerous. If there's something dangerous, there's small truths. But there's still the same stuff. That's all there is. So if you only look at the content, if you only look at the content of what Donald Trump says, it's kind of a thread. It's not outside. There are some things he says that are true. And there's always a little thread. Sometimes, like I said, I think the concept of a lie is a worthwhile concept. Because when someone exaggerates or twists or distorts or totally makes up facts, when I say all there is truth, the truth of that is that they had that thought in their mind. It exists as a thought in their mind, but maybe that's the only place it exists. It's like that saying he was a legend in his own mind. Yeah, it's like practically speaking, if someone makes up something, that's a lie. But it has a reality as a thought in their mind. But that's a real, small reality. Yeah, yeah. I mean, it might not have any correspondence to anything. And a lot of things Donald Trump says, he just makes up facts and canes that don't actually have any correspondence to anything. Last year, after my first vipassana retreat, which is 10 days of silence, during the retreat you learn about right speech, and we're not speaking so that we don't speak lies or anything like that. And it was just in the aftermath of that first course that I realized that a lot of the stories that we have for our lives, like, oh, time to tell the story about this. All of that stuff, when you're saying, part of the stuff that you're saying isn't true to you anymore the way it was when you wrote that script that you regurgitate every time you want to tell that story. And so I had that kind of experience. It's like, whoa, it's like I'm lying. I'm just telling this story I've told 100 times before, but it feels like a lie because it's just this story that I wear that I show around, but this and that, and so they're part of it. So you can actually turn my statement around and say all of yours is lies. Well, I just mean, I just, yeah, but the same thing, that story, I thought it was true in my mind as I am having this post-meditation experience of having to spend so much time concentrating my awareness, I felt that awareness shift when I hit those spots. To tell the story you had to go into the smaller... Right, right. And then I got that vertigo where it's like, whoa, yeah, you get busy because all of a sudden you go from this down to that to back out, yeah, yeah. But like you said, it's appropriate. You know, my sense is that ultimately what happens is our spiritual life unfolds so we just get really flexible. Mm -hmm. And we can... You know what I mean? And it's fine. You get less vertigo. We're even more flexible. We're capable of those sudden shifts in words because you get used to it. You get used to it by tracking it. That's why I invite you to be really curious about the awareness as it is because that will stretch you, that will... Do you have a specific practice of how to... How best to... You know, there's so many... If you think about it, that's really the essence of a lot of spiritual practices, whether it's inquiry or meditation. It's chronicle standard. Yeah, I do. I do... I still do the retreats. You know, I did a bevy of them last year. I did one in May. I'm signed up to do one in September up in Idaho. Right. But you know, in the time in between, I don't know if you've done a Vipassana retreat. I haven't been to Vipassana, but... So this is in the going good tradition. And so the first three and a half days you just do... Just focusing on breathing and breathing out. Right. And then for the last six, seven days of it, you body scan. Right. So you just move your awareness up and down from head to toe. For me, in the time in between courses, I've just been staying with the breath. Just breathing in, breathing out. And then I'll just sit there and then I'll just think thoughts. And then I'm like, oh, I'm not thinking... The thing with spiritual techniques and practices is to, again, really track your own experiences. If it's having an effect of kind of losing and expanding and shifting, then pedal to the metal and do it. Right. If it's... It's a gradual thing, though. Yeah. You have to... Even within a few weeks, even, of starting your practice, you'll have a sense. Does it... You'll have a taste of, like, oh, this really works. I'm still a slow learner. Right? Yeah. I don't know. I'm still, like, my... It's a little tricky to... It's like sasa, I guess. Right. Sasa, whether it's you're slow or you have an idea of what it's supposed to be like. Maybe. I just... I know that from the experiences that I had with the retreats last year, like, learning how to feel emotions, because I had a pretty traumatic, you know, development, childhood, all that kind of thing. And so, you know, it was the third retreat, I think, was when I finally realized that, like, someone had made me sad. And that made me really angry. And it took another... I realized I felt sad on, like, day eight, day seven, day eight. And it wasn't until day, like, almost the end of day nine where I actually, like, felt angry, you know. So... That's okay. Yeah. So that's, I mean, I don't know. When I talk about myself and it being a gradual process, like... The best thing is to compare yourself to yourself. Right. In the past. Right. And so that's where you'll see the progress. But on that note, you know, it's really good to try other techniques. Mm-hmm. So, you know, at some point, if the opportunity appears, you know, someone just wants to show you a different meditation practice. Right. Or where it's supposed to be. I've done a little bit of pranayama here lately. And, you know, I mean, if I meet this guy, you know, it's from the vision. You don't go to hell when I was right there. I mean, whatever in the hell he says, I'll be like, okay, I'm doing it, you know. Absolutely. It'll stand on one leg and hold onto this tree for three weeks. All right, that's fine. And this practice about, you know, getting curious about awareness. Right. You know, it's not paying attention to the sensations. It's paying attention to the subtle movement of awareness itself. And that's a wonderful one because you can do that anytime you're aware of it. It doesn't have to be expanded awareness. Mm -hmm. You can trust it when your awareness contracts. Showing you, oh, that's a, you know, you have a fearful thought. And if you notice your awareness will be very, very contracted, very, you know, often, often gets contracted, aren't you your thoughts into your head? Right. If you're totally in loss of your thoughts, then, you know, if you check your, it's, it's, you can say awareness is contracted. You can also say your sense of self will feel contracted. You'll feel small, inadequate, unworthy, literally small, like, you know, people talk about the, you know, child is not actually, you know, if I was in medical school, I can bear to you, there's no children in there. Right. And it's, you know, it's your sense of self. It gets the size of a child. Mm-hmm. The sense of your being gets very small again, like it was when you were a child. And then you'll know, you look good, and you'll know that, that, that experience is just not, not complete, not a, not a broad perspective. It's a mirror perspective. It's not, it's not false. You don't have to deny it or reject it or get rid of it. You just discriminate. Mm -hmm. You really distinguish from that. Your fears just aren't, aren't the only thing to listen to. And they have to, whatever, whatever contracts you. My opinions, my, you know, my old stories that just run. Like, you know, if that really is true, we can tell that story right now. And if not, you know, what else is true? That's always a good question. It's a small truth. What else is true? Right. Yeah. I'm really scared. Okay. What else is true? Well, I'm probably going to do it anyways. And that kind of puts the fear in perspective. Yeah. This is something that's worth it. You know, yeah, I'm scared. But I paid my money. I'm going to do the bunch of choices. Right. It puts it back into perspective. Yeah. Let's, yeah, it's a really great way to think about this whole expanded conscious experience thing. Because, you know, I mean, I've heard people talk about, you know, these states. But so it kind of gives it a context. Right. It's not up to you, really, how expanded you are in each one. Right. And it's not up to you in one of these. If there was a technique that gave you, you know, consistently gave you expanded states, those retreats would be packed. Right. There would be tens of thousands of people. Yeah. Signed up on the waiting list. Yeah. So. I kind of, you know, last year in my own analysis of it, I assorted myself with the notion that, you know, it's traits and not states that ultimately matter. Yeah. You know, for me, coming from having been raised Catholic and I have a deep love for the Gospels and Jesus and all of that, you know, that, you know, like Paul talks about in Corinthians that, you know, it's kindness and patience and humility. And so whatever it is in your practice is, if it helps you in those ways, if it helps you be more kind or, you know, that's being very discriminatory. And those traits matter, you know, your cultivation of being stronger with those traits matters way more than any, you know, mind blowing, you know, stepping into the unknown type of experience. And when that happens, awesome. Right. You can fully embrace it. I said you can trust it when your awareness does this. You can trust it when your awareness does this. Right. So they're both, they're both valid. They're both accurate. So you don't have to deny or reject any state and what it can show you. But the beautiful thing about what you said is that it keeps you from getting attached and straightening state because it's actually the attachments that are attachments that cause suffering. And so, you know, when people first have a big experience, there's usually a falling away of attachment and they aren't suffering in it. But then very suddenly, they can get attached. It's like, hold on to that extension. Right. Like, I want to keep this. Right. So there's the suffering. And actually it's not as expanded all of a sudden because there's the two things affect each other. But so if you focus on things that matter even more then the big experience that can come have their effect on you. You can enjoy them and say, OK, now what? Yeah. So there's a saying, you know, first the ecstasy and then to the laundry. Yeah. I like how you're talking about, you know, interacting with everything lightly. I've actually, over the past couple of weeks, I've kept going back to, do you know the Alice Huxley quote from the island? It's only a very good book. That's the story where the birds. Yeah, that's one element. Yeah, the birds are out there on the island. You're right. That someone a long time ago taught the wild birds to say something right. It's like attention and attention. Yeah. So this is from the islands. It's dark because you are trying too hard. Lightly, child, lightly. Learn to do everything lightly. Yes, feel lightly even though you're feeling deeply. Just lightly let things happen and lightly cope with them. I was so preposterously serious in those days lightly, lightly. It's the best advice ever given to me to throw away your baggage and go forward. There are quicksands all about you sucking at your feet, trying to suck you down into fear and self-pity and despair. That's why you must walk so lightly in my drama. That's good. Yeah. So when you were talking about lightly, I'm like, I know about lightly. I've been reading that quote to myself lately. Hmm. That's probably a good point. Good point? Note the end there. Yeah. Yeah. All right. Well, I appreciate the chat. Yeah. Yeah. So what did you think about awareness? Yeah. Like I said, you don't have to go seeking. Right? You just get curious, but I know the ordinary. Yeah. Space awareness. Right. Discrimination. Yeah. Before I left on my hike, you know, I sent out an email to my friend and family about the journey that I was taking. Yeah. And I said in there, I'm not going seeking something, but I am going seeing. Yeah. You know, I'm going to see what I see. Yeah. That's great. So you just keep doing that. Yeah.

So, are you a Catholic? Well, as I mentioned in the messages that I sent you the other day, you know, if sin criticism is a sin, I'm going to go to all of the hells. Oh, I got you. Yeah. Right. I'm a little bit of everything. I was raised Catholic. I read the liturgy yesterday with a friend of mine, you know, because apparently you need a reservation to get into church now, and you've got to book that reservation at least 24 hours in advance. I'm out here in Washington where they keep their buttholes nice and tight. Oh, nice. Yeah. But yeah, I also like I do Buddhist meditation retreats and I do Native American ceremonies with tribes and, you know, I just sent a video to a friend of mine about Zoroastrian burial practices. Yeah, I'm just, I drink water from all the wells. I sat down with a priest once and I said to him. I said to him, I said, you know, the unity that I hear you speaking of, I think it's the same unity that everyone else is speaking of as well. And he just kind of scratched his chin. And he said, you have a very high moral awareness. And I was like, okay, I could take that. So what about you? Do you have a flavor of pepper? Yeah. Well, I was raised a Mormon. Yeah. I'm still very active, but I've always, but you know, one thing about Mormonism is that we believe that we're not the only ones with the truth, that the truth is everywhere, that everybody is capable of attaining it, that everybody has parts of it. Right. And, or it has the potential to actually obtain the full truth. Right. And so we're, so I've always had a very, you know, wandering spirituality as yourself. So I love to go in other churches and I haven't been able to do a Muslim one yet just because they're kind of, you know, once you do, once you, once you, once you do one Muslim ritual, they assume that you're Muslim from that point on. Right. Well, it's kind of a weirdness. You know, it's sort of a, it's like, I'll do the patch from outside. Right. I just, I love, you know, Native American religion is just it's amazing. Yeah. It's mind-blowingly amazing. Right. I mean, I have felt more spirituality, you know, with those just as mature, you know, as, you know, you're feeling in a temple or anything. I think that that connection is available everywhere. It's just when you put your mind to it, when you really are seeking it, that it's there. It's there for everybody. So it's not one particular group is the only one that has it by any means. Right. Yeah. You know, it's like, so there's, there's, I'd love it if you added me as a friend on your Facebook so that you can see my posts and my story updates. There's, there's one that I posted to my story yesterday. Oh, sorry. What'd you say? Oh, I just, I think I actually have two spots that opened up. I'll get you in. Okay. Cool. So there's a, I saw this picture a while back and it's, it's of a cylinder, right? Like floating in space. And it shows how if you look at it from the one side, it casts the shadow of a circle. And then if you look at it from the other side, it casts the shadow of a rectangle. And so, you know, if, you know, when you're looking at it from one way, you're like, oh, that's, you know, but then it, but then I saw this next evolution of it the other day. And it's actually, it's not, it's not actually a cylinder because it's tapered at one end. And then if you look at it from the top down, it's a triangle. And then if you cast a light from any different direction, you've got like all of these different, you know, so it's, it's very much that, you know, like the blind man and the elephant kind of thing where everybody's grabbing onto the part that they can touch. And they're like, oh, it feels, it feels like, it feels like a leaf. No, it feels like a rope, you know. Yeah. Absolutely. So, anybody said they have all the truth. It's usually a more of an indication of their, that they're not really seeking the truth. They're just seeking to be right. Right. Yeah. Those are two different things. Having a fixed opinion is a good way to get stuck. Yeah. Yeah. So I'd love, so we talked about talking about atonement. And since today is Yom Kippur, it's a, it's a great day to talk about it. And I was just love to hear, hear your thoughts and I'll just chime in as we go. Okay. Atonement's kind of a, it's a very misunderstood thing, I think in most people's minds. I think most people look at it as just being this mysterious thing that has to take place. And that we don't really understand why, and that someday we will. So what do you think, what do you think most people think atonement is? I think most people just don't think it is. Well, I think to some degree it's, you know, you know that we're, that, you know, in the traditional Christian aspect is that Christ is, is the sacrificial lamb that he is the bridge between us and the eternal us and God. And by him sacrificing himself, he, he, he pays for our, our sins. We receive redemption. And then we, and because of that, we're able to return as I would say, return to God. But it's a lot of it is just, you know, mostly at the heart of it, it's just forgiveness. Yeah. Because we all do horrible things. We all do bad things. And having that idea that we're not stuck being that evil, that we can't overcome it. And through atonement we can overcome that evil state within us. I was, I was trying, I lowered the window because I was trying to let it cool off in here, but there's just too much noise outside. I'm, I'm in this parking lot. So, um, so yeah, I want to, I want to, I want to highlight a couple of those points just for anybody who's listening, who, who, who, you know, isn't familiar with some of these concepts. For me, I, uh, oh, we froze up. Cool. So before I was tethered off of my phone and now I'm sitting in the parking lot of a Starbucks and woohoo. Woohoo. Yeah. It sounds much better. Yeah. Good. Good. Great. All right. So we'll just pretend like, uh, we'll pretend like we're starting from the beginning again then. Okay. But the cool thing is, is that I got, I got everything from before recorded so I can always piece those pieces in, uh, you know, for anything. I don't know if I'm going to do any editing or not. I've got a guy who tells me he's going to help me do editing and engineering stuff, but until he actually does, I'm just throwing files at the internet and just letting people have, and I love that. I love the way that you do it too. Cause you just do the raw file and just throw it out there. Yeah. I kind of, uh, I mean, you can do all the editing and stuff. And then it cleans it up a little bit, but I kind of like the just doing it. So it feels like, you know, for the audience that feels like they're just, they're there. Right. Yeah. They're then watching something prepared. They actually feel like they're there experiencing it. Right. Yeah. Yeah. I love that too. And there's also a part of me that, you know, like with the podcast, I want to have the music and the introduction and the, you know, the reference to, you know, like links to your work and links to, you know, like my, you know, stuff so they can send me money, all that kind of thing. I just, I just, I've talked about doing it for so long that it was just like, you know what, I'm just going to throw the files at the internet and just get the ball rolling. And if I, if I need to clean it up later, I can do that then. That's the secret to life. Just throw it out and just start trudging along and make improvements as you go. Yeah. I was just talking to somebody the other day as like, look, good enough is good enough. I am not doing perfection paralysis anymore. Yes. That's probably the biggest thing. And I think a lot of people use that as an excuse to keep from doing things. Right. Right. You know, they just, it's got to be perfect. It was, well, no, you're just afraid that it's going to succeed or you're afraid it's going to fail. So you just go with whatever other excuse you can go with to not actually do it. Right. Yeah. It's. Are you funny? Are you still easily to predict? Are you still getting? Okay. So you were talking, we were talking about atonement and you were talking about evil and I want to throw, I want to throw some of my thoughts across your balance and see what you think. Okay. So I think, so from the research that I've done, there's the word sin and the word sin has two meanings, both of which we can apply to a game. If we think of life as a game, then what we've got is we've got transgressions and then we've got fouls. Right. So like if we're playing a basketball or baseball or something, right? Like it's not okay to elbow somebody in the face. That's a transgression. That's completely against the rules and you know it. And then there's, there's, there's missing, you know, like you go to swing and you just don't hit the ball or you throw the ball and you just don't make a hoop. And that's, that's the lesser form of sin where, where what we're doing isn't perfect, right? We're doing, we're doing the best we can. We're doing good enough. And so there's, there's that level of sin, which is where, you know, Christ is perfect and he never misses a shot. And we at our best are maybe batting 300. And then on the other side of it, then there's, there's body blocks and elbow checks and all that stuff. And that's, that's the stuff that we know is definitely wrong. And that's where, you know, like the deep pain that we all experience comes from. Right. That's the true evil. I agree with you. I agree with your assessment. Thanks. So yeah, I don't know. I just, I just felt like with, with the way we were starting with atonement and the way you were talking about evil, I don't know. I just felt like for anybody who isn't, isn't familiar with these terms around evil and sin, that, you know, it's really easy to jump to conclusions when you don't kind of have that like gamified view of, of what we're talking about. Yeah. I mean, yeah, you'll have to look at, yeah, in some ways sin is basically imperfection. And there's, there's sort of like a sins of, of, you know, when you, when you intentionally do something wrong and you know, what's wrong, I think that's, that's the real sin that we have to be concerned with. Because there's other times where we just, we make mistakes or, and, and, and it, I guess it's important when you're really looking at yourself and you're thinking about how to change, how to improve. And if you get hung up on, on, on the, the big things, I think this is one of the, one of the things that I see people do is, they'll get a failure. Oh, say that again. You said, you said they'll think that they're a failure because they make mistakes. Yeah. Yeah. Because they made these big mistakes and they think that they're stuck in those, that that's who they are. Right. And, and they get, and it sort of causes this, this existential problem because it's like, well, they know that they want to be good, but then they've done these bad things. And so they keep telling themselves that they're bad for, for ourselves, which is which. And so we end up kind of stifling ourselves from progressing because we get hung up on, on all these things where in reality, you just really have to keep the flow. It's really about going. It's just moving forward. Right. It's learning from those mistakes. It's learning from the failures and continuing and, and moving forward. And that's how we can, and the time limit really is for ourselves is being able to pay for past transgressions, especially if we've done something to somebody else. You know, that is the, that is the beauty of young Kapoor is, is, you know, like I always, you always know who your really good friends are. They're Jewish because they always send you a message at young Kapoor saying, hey, I'm sorry if I ever did anything to hurt you. If I did, please let me know. You know, it's, it's, it's always an honor when I get those messages because it's like, wow, they feel that strongly about me and our friendship. Right. That they, the one that they would trust me to, you know, make that to say that, which is, you know, Yeah. It's like giving your Christmas card. Right. You know, it's like, Hey, I, I'm acknowledging your existence and I, and, and I value your friendship. Yep. And so I want to keep our friendship. And so I'm holding you with this, just condition, I guess. But yeah, it's a, a, a moment really is about just for self forgiveness. And, just, just, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Totally. You know, the, I, I, I, as much as I, you know, when I'm asked whether or not I'm Catholic, I really, I very much, you know, I draw back to the Lord's prayer for, for most everything, you know, and, and that piece around, you know, like forgive us our debts is, or trespasses as we forgive those who trespass against us. Like there's, it's very much, you know, whoever tells you that circular logic is, is, is, is false. You know, I mean, those people are deluded because I, I think that there's so much power in circular logic where, you know, we have to understand, we have to understand self forgiveness in order to understand forgiving others. Because when we can see, when we can see ourselves in them and see them in us, then, you know, if we can accept our own mistakes, it makes it easier for us to accept their mistakes and vice versa. If we can accept their mistakes, then we can, you know, more easily accept our own mistakes and, and again, yeah, like you're saying, you know, like to go back to my, my sports metaphor, which is hilarious that I use sports metaphor because I've never been an athlete, but you know, you just, you have to just keep swinging, you know, like just cause, just cause you get those strikes, just cause you get those fouls, you know, that's no reason to, you know, throw a fit and, and step off the plate. Like you just got to keep swinging. Yep. Yeah. Yeah. That's it. Yeah. And, and, and I guess, you know, today, today, today being Yom Kapoor, you know, cause from the limited reading that I've done, you know, like the understanding is like, yeah, today's the day when you beat your breast and you say, Oh, I missed all those strokes. And I, and I, and I hit that guy with my bat last year, but this year, this year I'm going to, I'm going to play better. And this is the way that I'm going to play going forward to kind of seal that attitude of like, you know, I'm going to start fresh and I'm going to, I'm going to clean, you know, I'm going to, I'm going to take the whole scorecard and I'm going to start, start back at the first inning. Yeah. It really is. It just, we're going to, we're going to clear the board to start over. Right. Yeah. Which is, which is, which is wonderful. Yeah. Totally. You know, just giving yourself room, but, you know, okay, I've learned what I've learned and I'm going to start over. Yeah. That's it. There's a lot of power in that. You know, I think we all like the undefeated champion. We all like the, you know, we all like the one who's, you know, can't be beat. And we like to be that person. We'd like to be the one who's never been defeated. We say, clear the, clear the thing and say, wait a minute, that person doesn't exist anymore. The person who made all those mistakes. That was that person. I'm a different person. Right. Who's evolved from that person. Yeah. This person is perfect. Yeah. And at the same time, you know, you know, like with, with the baseball thing, you know, like, you know, the best players out there, you know, they're batting 300. And so, you know, if we're, if we're stepping up from 150 to 200, or even if we're doing the absolute best that a human can do when we're batting 330, you know, like, we can acknowledge like, hey, I'm going to miss a lot of swings, but that's okay. You know, like, I'm not going to let it, I'm not going to, I'm not going to let it turn me into a sour puss. Yes. Yes. Yeah. It's a lot of the, the stoicism that I'd like to tell people that they need to adopt into their lives is that you have to look at experiences, whether it's bad things that happen to you or bad things that you can't get in. Either way, either way, it's, you, you, you have to learn from those things and you have to accept that, hey, this was, this is part of my journey. Right. I've had this experience. And so instead of being bitter about it or upset or getting down on yourself, you just to say, okay, this is what I've learned. Now I'm a better person. And in the future, should I come into this situation again, I'm fully prepared to deal with it. Yeah. And when you constantly look at everything that way, you don't get hung up on whether you're a bad person or an evil person. You just accept that you aren't perfect and that you're learning and that the process of perfection is really what we're after. It's not, we're never going to obtain perfection. At least I don't think so at this point. But as we progress and perfect ourselves at perfecting, right, that's really what we're after. It's, you know, it's like I tell my kids when we were teaching them is that my goal is not to teach you everything. My goal is to teach you how to learn. Right. As you learn, yeah, and you know that that will be more beneficial to you than memorizing what happened during the battle of Gettysburg. Right. Yeah. It's, I mean, you know, life is a skill building exercise. And so if you learn the small steps, right, and you just repeat that, then everything else just naturally, everything else just naturally grows out of it. And as long as you just keep doing the small things the right way, then everything else, everything else will just blot, you know, it's a fractal. And as long as we keep, as long as we keep the basic math good, then the whole equation comes out beautifully. Yep. Find the pattern, just keep repeating it. Right. Right. Absolutely. And I think, you know, and to go back to, you know, to go back to Christ's message, right? He ended with one commandment, which is love. Absolutely. Right. If we can just, if we can just love everyone all the time, if we, if we just look past the pain and we look past the reactions and we just dial in on the love, then that's, that's that's that math that everything else will just build out of. Absolutely. Well, if you look at, you know, if you really get down and you look at the commandments, what they all come down to is basically giving respect to others. Yeah. You know, that really comes out as not trespassing towards other people. Right. Like it's about selflessness. in the right frame of mind to avoid hurting other people. Right. And that's really what the gospel is. It's just love everyone the same way that you would have everyone love you. Right. How you want to be treated, treat them the same way. Right. Yeah. I mean, when you look at the world that way, I mean, when you look at the world for that perspective of, Hey, I know what hurts me. Therefore, I want that hurt anyone else. And you just incorporate that in your life and everybody else does it. Wow. Amazing things happen. Yeah. I mean, it's basically all that necessary. right. All these things that we put so much emphasis on. It's like, just good people are just doing the right thing. None of this stuff is important. None of this is is necessary. Yeah. If everybody's actually just doing doing good. Right. Yeah. I mean, because it's, you know, it's all about selflessness. Right. If I can get Luke out of the way, you know, because nobody wants to hear Luke's story. They just want, they just want Luke to be nice to them. And the same goes, you know, it's all the way around. It's, it's not about, you know, it's not about me and what I will, because that's what the commandments are saying. They're saying, it's not about you and what you want. You know, just give it up and, and let it go. And, you know, just amazing things happen. Absolutely. Yeah. And I keep telling people, we don't need to change the world. Right. The world is already. Perfect. I mean, the truth is already there. We aren't looking for the truth. We already, the truth is already there. We just have to bring ourselves and compliance with it. Right. We just got to, we just got to clean, we just got to clean, we just got to clean the mirror off so we can see it more clearly. Yes. Yes. We let too many things get in our way. Right. And, and it's a lot of this is just, you know, it's always funny when I tell, you know, I tell people that life is an illusion that we create. Right. Right. And reality is just a shared illusion amongst all of us. Yeah. When I was, when I was, when I was like 13, 14, I used to play online, online games back before, you know, back in like the early 90s before they had the, the ultimate online and all the graphic interfaces. It was all text based. And I would play, I would play on mushes and a mush stands for a multi user shared hallucination. Because that's what it is. You know, you create, you create, you create your character, you create the world around you, you do it all by the way that you describe it yourself. And so, it's just everyone is sharing their own descriptions together to create this like group experience. Yeah. And then you're building off what other people create. You're editing that to your, you know, your understanding. Right. And that's really, that's all we're doing. Everybody just decides, hey, we're going to stop killing each other over, you know, boundaries and stuff. Right. Wow. Yeah. They're different. Yeah. Totally. And it's just getting people to wake up to, to see that, that we, we, we are human beings. This is how we interact with each other and how, what we do. We can change this. Yeah. Yeah. And that's the thing is, right. Well, exactly. Like the way that we think, the words that we say, how we act with just the people around us, like we are, we literally are changing the world every moment. And it's not, you know, we don't have to worry about like organizing the mass rally or ending the war. Like we have to end the war here and then just spread the piece just to the people immediately around us. And that, you know, the ripple effect just, you know, like the butterfly, you know, we're butterflies making hurricanes and everything. Oh, absolutely. And that's, that's been the fun thing with my videos is that, that really is the, the only, that's the message that I'm trying to share with people. And it's really resonating. It is. It's funny because I'm not saying, I tell people, I'm not saying anything different than anybody else's. I mean, your presentation is fantastic. Well, and that's the key is that it's, you know, my goal was to eliminate all of that pretentiousness. Right. And all of this idea that, oh, he's, he's, you know, I'm a, I'm a wise guy. Oh, please, please listen to my profound words and purchase my protein shakes. Right. You know, I'm not nonsense. Yeah. Let me tell you my fourth book that tells you the thing I mentioned in the first chapter, the first book. Yes. Yes. Oh goodness. It drives me nuts. You buy, you get a book and it's, I love reading. I love, Oh yeah. Spiritual. I love, but you get a lot of these self-help books and it's 400 pages of nonsense. Just to tell you two things. Right. Yeah. And then the thing they tell you is like, just love yourself. And so, okay. And I mean, it's beautiful because, you know, people, you know, everybody, you know, nobody's right and ready for it until they're right and ready for it. And so that book is there, that book is there for that person, for that moment. And it's great. And at the same time, yeah, but just, yeah, I love, I love the way that your delivery is connecting with people because I'm seeing it and I'm sharing it. And I'm really excited to, you know, in this small way be a part of it. Oh, thank you. Thank you. And again, it's just, it's silly. And it's ridiculous. Yeah. And it takes you, it really takes, takes you off your guard because you're not, you're not think, you're not sitting there going, okay, what is this, what is this grand master about to expound upon me? You're just going to go, what is this? What are you talking about? Right. Like, what's wrong with this guy? And what is he saying? What's the point of this? Right. Yeah. And then, and by the time, you know, when you're done laughing at the end of it, you go, oh, oh, I get it. Okay. Oh, I think, I think he just snuck some learning in on me there. Damn it. Well, you know, the idea, the idea that I did in my comedy is I always want to do things that the audience themselves would be absolutely scared of. Right. You know, everybody wants to look good. Everybody wants to sound good. Everybody wants to come across as being an intelligent, well-informed individual. And so I just threw that out of the window. I'm going to cover the most ridiculous, goofy-looking presentation, but believable. That's part of, part of it is, is the believability. You know, because if I just get up there and act like, you know, hey, don't be goofy. Nobody's going to care. It's like, okay. Right. You know, but the believability is a real key to it because the, the greatest, the greatest compliment I get is people go, are you okay? You know, I get, I get, I get, I get, you know, after the videos really started hitting, I started getting messages from professionals who were like, concerned that I was dementia or autistic or, you know, I mean, any number of issues. And I'm going, no, it's just a character. They stuff my drunk grandpa. That's it. I just, I just took a creative, a character that is just sort of, you know, saying things that everybody else is saying, but just saying in a way that's, that you actually know. Yeah. So tell me, I've heard you mention your children a few times. Tell me a little bit about that. How many kids have you got? We have four children through boys and a girl. Yeah. The, they're, they're kind of funny. They're just, what's the age range? The oldest is 26. Yeah. And my youngest is 22. Oh wow. Okay. Cool. Yeah. They were all pretty close together. Right there in a row. Yeah. That way they just kind of grow up together and move out at about the same time, but none of them have left yet. Well, my girl, my doc, my daughter lives in Denver, Colorado Springs. Cool. But the boys are still here. Yeah. They don't seem to be going anywhere. Well, that's nice. You can get them, I mean theoretically, you can get them to help, you know, with some yard work or something. Well, that's what they were doing. They were here, we have another business and they were, they've been working with my, for my wife doing that. What's your, what's your profession? What's your trade of choice? Well, for me, I was a carpenter for many years. And then I got into doing standup comedy and acting. Yeah. And then my wife has a business where she does inspections for mortgage companies. Yeah. Okay. Cool. And so all the kids have worked, worked with her. And then they've also all been my, my film crew and my editing crew. Right. All that stuff. That's great that you get the family involved in the process. Yeah. Yeah. And they've, you know, they've grown up with computers and cameras and all this stuff around their whole lives. Right. They've, they've had a lot of fun playing with it. Cool. Well, I think, I think, yeah, I mean, I want to leave it open. If there's anything else that you want to add to this conversation, but I feel like this is pretty good for today. Oh, fantastic. It's been, it's been a delight to sit down with you in the chat. Yeah. Hopefully, hopefully the next time we do it, we don't have to worry about dropping packets and we can just be face to face or something. Yes. That'd be nice.

Hey Sam, yo, how's it going? It's pretty good, it's kind of stunningly beautiful right now, actually, with the half moon and the golden hour light and the apples, the good days work behind me. Did you do the good days work today? I got some shit done, yeah. Cool. I was out in the garden for a little while. Did you bump your arm? Are you okay? I'm fine, that's just the very sensitive microphone. Oh, right, because you can hear the sounds that it's making. Yeah. Do you want the headphones? No, no, no, no. No, I'm fine. I got the headphones and the boom. Yeah. That's great. Yeah. As it should be. It's fun. I'm the guest. That's right, the guest. So this is a recording for a podcast that I've got that's called Love in the Light. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. And so I like to talk about things that have to do with love and the light and the truth and so tell me, what's the truth? I really like Don Miguel Ruiz and his version of the, his articulation of the truth. He's got a book called The Voice of Knowledge. Most people are familiar with the Four Agreements or the Mastery of Love, which he also wrote. And he's got one called The Voice of Knowledge that helped me land on the truth and he describes it as the felt experience. Like a felt hat? No, not like felt hats. Like your feelings. So, the truth, he says that we're all artists and anytime that we are trying to communicate what the truth is to one another, we are just artists making art and we're telling a story and that there is no truth beyond the felt experience. Wow. So what kind of art do you make? I do my best when I'm able to appreciate that everything I'm doing all day is art. Sounds pretty good. Yeah. You know, I like to dabble in culinary arts and music and visual arts. I do some doodles, a little bit of painting sometimes. Mostly I write, I think, is probably the most substantial thing that people could be like, that's the thing, Trudals. What do you write about? Mostly uteruses, ovaries, vaginas. Fallopian tubes? You know, so I call them egg tubes. Egg tubes. Fallopian is the eponym. Eponym being something that is named for somebody who supposedly discovered it. So Fallopian is like an Italian dude, I believe, from the 1500s who said that he discovered the little tube that carries my eggs to my uterus, but they're not Fallopian's tubes, they're mine. Right. And so you said you call them? Can you really call them egg tubes? Egg tubes. That's like what they're for. And that's inspired by folks that have come before me that have pioneered women's health and anatomy and trying to make it more accessible and reclaim what is this truth, right, as our felt experience and our felt experience being like, that's not Fallopian's tube, that's an egg tube. So, yeah, you got my coloring book. I've got your coloring book. I talk about this in the first page of the coloring book, why I use descriptive terms instead of eponyms. So throughout that coloring book, whenever there is a man's name, an old, dead, white man who said that he discovered a part of my body, I mention him and I'm like, this is what's in the normal books, but here is actually a descriptive term of this part of my body as it functions or where it's located. Yeah. So that's the truth. That's my art. I think those were your questions. I think so. Yeah. I'll take a pause. Like a puppy, darling? That'd be cute. Yeah, a little pause. Little pink ones. Now you and I, we had a conversation a few days ago and I was talking about an experience that I'd had and you said that sounded a lot like what you knew of as a moon lodge. So I'm curious if you could tell me more about what a moon lodge is. Yeah. So moon lodge is a term, a lot more folks might be familiar with red tent also. Okay. Essentially, I think at its core it is removing oneself from the mundane daily life to commune with the divine. And in the process of shedding our endometrium, which potentially could have nourished another being and gives us this process of shedding our endometrium, menstrual bleeding is what it's called, but side note, it's not actually much blood. It's mostly tissue. It's really thin tissue, more tissue than blood. So it's the moon lodge or the red tent is the act of removing yourself from your day to day activities so that you can commune with the divine in the process of bleeding. And there are various indigenous practices where in the act of bleeding, the women would spend time in the dark and not be permitted to use fire or be in the light as part of that process of deepening a meditation practice and feeling this truth, this felt experience of our connection to the divine which is inherent in this process of spirit and matter intersecting specifically in the process of our menstrual cycles. Yeah. So I have a place which my mind has gone to that I want to go. So we're going to explore this and hopefully we'll tread lightly as we go there. So when I first met you, we had dinner together and it was a bit of a ritual that comes from your tradition. Yeah. And when I hear you talk about like this moon lodge red tent kind of thing, my mind harkens back to the descriptive way the texts that I know as the Old Testament kind of point to the way that women in that phase of their body and just timely cycle would isolate themselves from others. Yeah. And that it was the fact that it's written there is more descriptive than proscriptive. It's not like the way I try to read a lot of the things out of those texts is actually more descriptive than proscriptive. I feel like when people are like, oh, well, it was just judgment that got handed down and it was this terrible thing that or whatever we forced them away. When it's read that way, it creates a picture that people see that have a lens through that doesn't actually reflect. It's almost like it's just art or a story that you can't actually tell the truth in a story you can only feel it. So it's a description of the story of these people, not a prescription for how we should be moving currently. Yeah, there's a bestseller historical fiction novel called The Red Tent by Anita Diamant that is all about biblical moon lodge and biblical women. Cool. Yeah. It's nice. I know so little. It's an initiation. It's like in the circles that I run with a lot of women are like, oh, and then my whole life changed when I read that book. Wow. Yeah. Great. Yeah. And the practice is like a very... And the book is The Red Tent? The Red Tent. Oh, okay. Yeah. Anita Diamant. And you said the practice is very... It's one of those things which as a seeker I'm sure you've got some level of awareness of in spiritual practices that you will find the same or similar practice in very different parts of the globe with different descriptions. Right. Perhaps but like the embodied actions has this like same essence. And so many tribal cultures have red tent. Many tribal and indigenous cultures have moon lodge or red tent traditions. And it seems to be a thing that is worthwhile for us to do in the way that you're like, wow, how many people have been doing it and how many parts of the globe for how much of recorded human history maybe that's important. Right. Do you know about the people in the Sierra Nevada's, some of the boys that raised them in the dark for like the first nine years? We're going back to the dark. Huh? I said we're going back to the dark. Well that's what I thought that's what we were talking about with the whole... Sure. The tents and everything. Oh, so the staying in the dark thing I've specifically heard about that being a practice in the Andes in Peru. Oh really? I actually don't know about the specificness of darkness as part of the moon lodge or red tent anywhere else. Okay. But just wanted to... Yeah. Well that's good to know. Okay, so boys in the Sierra Nevada's they're... Well they call... Yeah. They're being raised in the dark for the first nine years. Yeah. Yeah. They're called the mamas and they're like shamans. Hmm. Just they... The boys are called the mamas? Yeah. That's what the... Well as men. That's just like that's the name for... That's some really ironic and strange... You should check it out sometime. Thing. Yeah. I'll send you a link to it. The mamas. The boys are the mamas. The males, yeah. Sure. Are the first girls mamas. Yeah. In that culture. Yeah. So you'll... I don't know their linguistics Yeah. Well I'll have to go deeper than that but yeah. Yeah. The lady I learned about doing moon lodge in complete darkness and it's really actually like sitting with her really changed my own practice of menstruating more than any other piece of information that I had taken in which had been many many pieces of information over like you know more than a decade of study and practice already. So this lady was a cultural anthropologist I think the word medical actually belongs before cultural so she's like a medical cultural anthropologist who was from Peru and studied with indigenous women in the Andes and she explained the tradition of moon lodge practices of that lineage with a bunch of great specificity. What is that word? Specificity. You got it. I got it. It really blew my mind and the thing that for some reason flipped my switch for my own practice was her saying that the boys in this culture when they came of age they took ayahuasca and that ayahuasca and a serious moon lodge practice were seen to be of equal potency. Oh yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I have not partaken of ayahuasca but I have spent an equivalent period of time in the dark and I can speak to the power of that experience. Yeah. Yeah for sure. Yeah sounds nice. It's an initiation. Yeah. Definitely into just even having the awareness that there's a beyond that is accessible just by this natural means and in a way that's stunningly relaxing. That's nice. Oh yeah. The relaxing bit feels extra nice. Yeah. I've never in my life felt so relaxed as I did when I had been in the complete darkness for you know two, three, four days. Really just deep, deep water. And when you talk about just like feeling and how just like the embodied sense of being is your doorway into the truth like when you're in nothing but the dark, there's nothing but your feeling. Like there's your memory and there's your feeling and that's it. Yeah. Or your imagination. Yeah. It's yeah. For me you know so the podcast is Love and the Light because in order to find which we're talking about the dark that was actually my first internal dialogue when you're like we're going to talk about love and the light and I'm like I usually talk I'm like well we're first of all we're sitting in the shade. Yeah. Well there's a nice sunlight going through the windows there. I'm like and that's where I kind of my expertise both literally and kind of more psycho-spiritually tends to be shining light in the darkness. Uh huh. Right. So like women's health our anatomy our bodies our cycles our sexualities literally in the dark. Okay. Yeah. Right. There's no light there. Right. Unless you bring it. Right. And then of course like intellectually and spiritually we're predominantly in the dark ages still from patriarchy and capitalism and yeah. Catholicism and all that goodness. Well Catholicism is just one one Lincoln. It's not just that thing. It's a very long chain. What's androcracy? Androcracy. Is that what it is? There's a word that's like I'm trying to remember there's a great word that's like an activist term that's for many many systems of oppression like all rolled into one so you don't have to say all of them. The black iron prison man. Whatever. But I totally interrupted you. Oh. Do you have that train that you were on? I think I still have the ticket to that train. Yeah. I know where my luggage is. So going back to those old books. Okay. The scriptures and the things. Yeah. I've read a couple of them. First you've got the darkness and then and then the light comes in. Right. Right. Yeah. It doesn't start with light and then bad things happen and it gets dark. No, no, no. It starts dark and then the light comes in. Mm-hmm. So the light's a secondary thing. Yeah. So by really subsuming your awareness into the dark then that which is within makes itself apparent in a way that isn't necessarily intuitive until you've experienced it or until you know those who have. That's real nice. Yeah. It's fantastic. Yeah. I highly recommend it. Yeah. I feel like I have a pretty good sense of it. Mm-hmm. Sweet. Yeah. From some darkness that I've been through. Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. Like the dark night of the soul kind of stuff. Yeah. Is that what's led you to the work that you're doing now trying to shine light in the darkness for women and with women's health? A dark night of the soul. I don't know. I've had a couple experiences that I think can be described that way. And I feel that my story is so much beyond my soul. And it's a lot more ancestral. Mm-hmm. And hyperdimensional. Like my experience of embodiment and consciousness I feel in connection to such a greater web that like my specific dark night of the soul doesn't feel like the thing that birthed my path. Right. Right? But yeah, I don't know why I was given this consciousness in this particular manner. Like I don't need, actually why am I using those words? I don't need to know why. But my experience is actually I started studying before I started menstruating. Mm-hmm. I was a very aware, very little person. Yeah. And... A little old lady. Yeah. A little like Shirley Temple. Okay. Disguise. Yeah. But there's actually a lot of spiritual lore also around this, you know, bringing it back to blood and menstruation again, which I like to do about that process being an essence of our, our life's purpose. Right? And like what we're supposed to be creating. There's, you know, to use kind of colloquial terms, like a download that we can receive when we start cycling and then our bodies are initiated in this way of being a conduit for divine creative energy. Right. And that if we are properly supported or magically bizarrely aware as I was, you will be given information and clarity around your your path and your gifts along with first menses. Which I feel yeah. So when I look, yeah, it was a dark night of the soul, which was an innocent enough question. I'm just like, I don't think so. No, I was way before that. I didn't, I don't think I had a dark night of a soul unless you count my birth. Right. As a dark night of the soul, which maybe it was. I think that there's a lot to the the birth journey and just like the way that it informs how a person becomes who they are. Yeah. Yeah. I've got my own narrative around that. Yeah. Tell me, tell me about that dark night of the soul. Of my birth. I mean, unless you don't want to. You're the one who brought it up. Yeah. I'll tell you mine. Oh, your birth story. So my mother was in labor for over 24 hours. Mm-hmm. And then they... What number were you in the lineup? I was first at bat. You were the first one. I was the first one. Okay. And they'd been married for five years before I came around. Mm-hmm, which is radical in Catholic culture, which was like, make a baby, make a baby. Why else should we get married? Yeah, I guess so. Uh... Okay, so your mom was in labor for more than 24 hours. Right. And so then they used not forceps, but like this suction thing. Oh, yeah. Like... And they cracked my skull when they did it. Mm-hmm. I hate when they do that. Yeah. It's not ideal. It really sucks. I describe it as not the preferred thing. I really don't like it when they fuck with the baby's head. Right, yeah. Um... And so, I feel like a theme in my life has always been this, like, sense of being rushed. Like, I've always got to get there. Totally. When, you know, like... I... There's somebody who lives on the property here, Tamari, who you've spoken with. So she can relate. She can relate. Just talking about how, like, you know, like the ultra psychedelic experience at childbirth is as akin to death, as akin to, you know, like, just first mincees or sex or just, like, all of these, like, transcendental experiences. Sure. And how you need to really be able to relax in order to get there. Yup. And that, you know... You ain't driving the bus, bitch. Right. Being in a hospital with all the... Sit down. Beeping and the noise and the tension and the stress and the doctor that ultimately is like, oh, here I'll just use this vacuum to pull out your child. Like, that creates that environment where, yeah, it took so very long because it just never, it was never, like, at peace. Yeah. So, yeah. So that's part of my dark night of the soul, part of my story there with all that. Yeah. I've witnessed both firsthand and been the sometimes honored recipient and sometimes, like, dumping ground of birth trauma. Right. I spent almost the entirety of my 20s attending births in the hospital on call. Well... So, there's some special things that happened in my nervous system and consciousness in that process. Yeah. Oh. Yeah. That's pretty intense. Um... Yeah. I use the word rape for the dominant paradigm of birth culture in our country because folks are getting cut and drugged systematically for the profit of an institution in the industry. Yeah. Um, yeah. It's intense. Like, talking about that, like, my heart just lights on fire and implodes and there's not many things that I feel more like disempowered rage and like uncontrollable emotion around than birth. Hmm. It's something I just still don't have a handle on because my personality is so perverse right now. It's like it's just a really difficult reality for me to integrate. So, I have a lot more distance than I did for that decade. Right. These days and, you know, now I just hang out more with miscarriage and abortion, which is way chill compared to hospital birth. Yeah. I mean, those are still those are still pretty heavy things to be way chill. Um, I'm, you know, there's a bit of sarcasm there, but as far as nervous system and like my ability to use my skills for self-care and rest, um, yeah, it's actually it's usually a much slower process. Yeah. Yeah. To miscarry or have an abortion. Um, offering people support in that capacity. There's more space for grace and less of a feeling of needing to be like a ninja. How do you mean? Are you saying birth requires a ninja? Yeah, I feel like a lot of the work I did in the hospitals, as a birth doula, had an an energy of ninja like agility need to be on the ready at any moment. Like I'm on call to like run to this person's support. And there's a defensive and aggressive quality to the interactions that I often needed to have with the hospital staff to avoid the violation of my client, which is out of scope of practice for a birth doula and that's, you know, part of the whole reason I stopped being a doula and calling myself a doula there's there are many, there's a laundry list of reasons why I retired from being a birth doula. But one of them being that advocacy is really frowned upon. Oh. We're really supposed to just like there there, provide support, just be kind just be helpful. Right. And like there are moments where that is akin to like just, you know, wiping the sweat off a woman's brow while she's being forcibly penetrated right against her will like and helping her take her panties off for it to happen instead of being like actually we're not going to be forcibly penetrated and if you don't want to take your panties off you don't got to you're fucking panties. Right. So yeah, that's a lot to have to deal with. It was a lot. Wow. Yeah. Well thank you for the good work that you've done in the past and for what you continue to do. Thanks. I'm doing my best. I know that my my candor right now is like there's a little sass and sarcasm which is partially a healing like using levity and humor is genuinely just like you kind of in the medical field you learn a little gallows humor. Yeah. Yeah, I just want to acknowledge that that there is like there is an anchor and a depth and a seriousness. I'm not I don't take it all really lightly. Right. And thanks for your appreciation. Oh. It's been an interesting time. Yeah, do you have any thoughts or questions or topics of conversation that you want to touch on? In the conversation I think at the sun sets Yeah. At the sun sets. You said actually I believe yesterday you said you wanted to talk about Oh yeah. Eve, Adam and Eve. Getting cursed. Yes, I did mention that. Thanks for bringing that around. Yeah. So I see it is more of a description than a prescription. It wasn't so much that God actively cursed humanity it was that he described what would now be the experience of humanity given the decision that they had made. The decision that they had made was to eat fruit from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil which is to say that they chose to accept duality. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah. And so it's a description that says That's a nice one. It's a description that says in your choice to accept duality as the perspective world view through which you will now gain experience it will appear as though these things are very unpleasant and you shall have to toil and struggle to get what you want and what you need. Fuck yeah. But that's because we're getting what we think we want and need instead of just accepting what's being provided. Like, you know, if you know the wild crafting and the foraging you don't need to be an agricultural to live on this earth. We have chosen this dualistic world view that says well we must do this therefore that which means we've got to dig up the soil and plant the seeds and get the things we're expecting to get. Wow. Yeah, instead of just feeling that connection with nature and having that healthy safe environment for all of the ebb and flow of life cycles to process naturally without the mechanistic interference that we create for ourselves with this right and wrong harsh world view of this is the way that's not the way right and wrong like you feel your way through to what so that's my take on the curse which I wanted to talk about. That's beautiful. It feels really familiar. But I don't know that I've heard that that specific distillation but my you know, I've read enough of Taoism and non -dualism in general that I dig that the sweep and my my reaction when you were like I want to talk about it on me I was like what about Le Le I want to talk about Lilith Yeah. We can talk about the dark origin of things as well I like talking about the dark. I don't know if we're at time. We usually stop at 20 minutes I don't have there are no rules. This is total anarchy. Lilith would like that because she's the mother of all chaos. Right. I'm all about some chaos. I know about Lilith. You know about Lilith? I know a couple things about Lilith. You tell me. Well Lilith is she's a mama of a lot of creatures. Okay. Yeah. Uh -huh. I got a cool thing going on up in my room. With Lilith? No. Well I mean Bummer. I got this slanted ceiling and then there's a dream catcher hanging down and between the slant and the dream catcher there's this beautiful spider web and it looks almost like an exclamation mark star just kind of over hanging over my head The spider web the natural spider web plus the web of the dream catcher create an exclamation point. Well it's not quite it's like a it's like a multi point star it's just like boom like five five arm stars pretty cool I don't know but I feel like spiders and Lilith they're probably connected somehow. Wait it's an exclamation point or it's a pentacle? Kind of like the almost like the Walmart logo you know like this you know like the arms like shoot out. I'm really really grateful to say that when you said it's like the Walmart logo I had literally no reference in my brain of what the fuck you were talking about for a full 45 seconds it hasn't even been 45 seconds there were maybe some shooting stars time stopped that was the end of it it all became are there stars in it in the Walmart logo? I don't let's not talk about the Walmart logo let's talk about Lilith I feel like I mentioned it once and you've said it like five times you know let's talk about Lilith tell me more so besides starting my period I've had two other massive initiation experiences when I was 21 I had a uterine hemorrhage where I lost two thirds of my red blood cell count and had a dilation and keratage procedure against my will and then when I was 28 I had a year of life where I hemorrhaged the blood and the womb of my life instead of my uterus which is also my life but I had a 21 acre farm I had a husband I had a car I had a wallet, I had a computer I had two grandmothers I had a midwifery mentor who was alive and cats and chickens and all sorts of other things at the beginning of this year and at the end I didn't have any of those things how old were you then? 28 your Saturday's return no 29 it was the end of my Saturday return it was as I was turning 30 and as Trump was also put into office that year so four years ago yeah and that is the most obvious dark night of the soul sort of moment which I was super grateful that I had been studying and working with primarily abortion and miscarriage at that point and had mostly retired from attending births I had been studying grief rituals and psychology and supporting my clients in a really rooted way and so when I went through that epic intense year of loss of all those people and aspects of my life that I really enjoyed I was able to apply the things that I had been teaching and like take my own medicine and it's just to come back to relaxation I guess that that was 100% the key and I was able to do so because I had a spiritual faith and clarity that I gained during my uterine hemorrhage as well as supporting numerous various types of pregnancy release right birth miscarriage abortions still birth like and menstruating hundreds and hundreds of times these are all things that helps me understand the importance of relaxing and recognizing that I wasn't in control and that there was something very intense happening that I was not in control of and that my resistance to it would create more pain than my ability to relax and let go and just have faith and just trust well there you go you got it all right there in the nutshell that's perfect here's what's going to happen we're going to say goodnight thank you so much oh wait one more just closing statement closing statement during that year of loss I had consistently said oh Kali is just fucking with me that was like kind of my tag I was like Kali Ma is just fucking burning it down right now and I said that for the first handful of months and then at some point I figured out that Kali Ma was not fucking with me I am Lilith

Hi there. This is Luke Jones with Love in the Light. So we're just going to do a relatively short 15 minutes or less podcast. I've got a few topics to touch on. One is updates about how I'm doing and what's going on. Another topic is Qigong. Some time for Thanksgiving and time for time. So to begin with the update, I am recovering. My surgery was on the 22nd of July. My birthday was on the 24th and now it's the 17th of August. So it's been almost a month as the days fly by on one of those old timey calendars in a movie with all the days flying off. Which is what a lot of the past month has been like. I was kind of incapacitated. Just exhaustion and resting and healing. And finally, also, I live in the state of Washington and marijuana is legal here. So I was using that as sort of a whole body sedative for a while. So now it's time to sweat all of the toxins out of there and figure out going forward. Which is one of the topics for later. So specifically updating, the hernia surgery was a success. I am no longer in the kind of persistent pain that I used to be. There is still sometimes some pain along the surgical site line. The scar line there. I think a lot of that has to do with pressure either internal whether I'm feeling a little stopped up or gassy or external whether I've got pants or something that are like pushing too close against the surgical line there. Supposedly within the next two or three weeks or so I should be like the way that the body scarifies and then that scarified tissue like softens and all that kind of stuff. Hopefully that healing process should be, I guess, through in that time frame. So a few more weeks before I know what my everyday normal is going to be like, I guess. And later this week I'm finally going to start carrying weight again taking on farm chores, lifting things, but, you know, doing everything slowly, gently, mindfully, that kind of thing. So really, yeah, I'm really, really glad that I was able to have had this surgery that I no longer have hernia and that, yeah, I don't know, in its own way, I think over the course of the past year, year and a half well, I don't even think I know I've learned a lot and some amount of what I've learned wouldn't have been possible without this hernia. I guess, I don't know, I don't know if that's actually true. But it is what it is. And yeah, I got surgical mesh, so now I will have an artificial thing inside of me for the rest of my life, which I have mixed feelings about. I had originally talked to the surgeon about going with a newer kind of mesh that the body absorbs after about a year and a half, but then, you know, in the weeks leading up to the surgery, I was just like, man, if I, you know, if I get constipated, really bad, really stressed out, tired, anxious, dehydrated, all that stuff a few years from now and I don't want to go popping my scar. So I decided to go with the permanent mesh and hopefully I never come to regret that decision. Anyway, moving on, we've used up the first third of our time on one of our four topics, Qigong. I don't know how much I want to say about it right now, other than I want to say a little bit. But I, so you might know it as Qigong, or Qigong is how it looks, Q-I-G-O-N-G. According to one of the books that I have, it's properly pronounced Qigong. It's an ancient system of understanding that Qigong and Nigong don't ask me for the distinctions from China, the understanding of the body and its energy systems and blockages and how to enhance one's vitality. So there's a lot of learning there and I intend to share more about that learning as I learn. In the meantime, there is a really cool series about seven hours long of lectures and demonstrations about the microcosmic orbit, which has to do with Qigong and Nigong and the internal alchemy of energy flow. I'm really excited about that. I watched the first of the videos last night. I think there's like 14 different videos. So looking forward to delving more into that. It isn't an absolute beginner's program, although it doesn't seem that there are any restrictions. So I'll put a link in the description if you even just watched the first of the videos. It's pretty cool. You'll learn something. I guess I just wanted to leave that as a touchstone so that I'm reminded that in the future I could center more of my conversations around Qigong. So giving thanks. Wow. I'm so thankful for so many things. I'm so thankful for the beautiful, warm, sunny day outside that I have yet to experience, because it's 12.41 now. Before I started this recording, I jumped out of the shower and I had woken up and I had my sleep schedules all screwy. You can imagine. I spent the past three weeks like stoned and just racked out and just exhausted and healing. My sleep schedule is pretty upside down right now. I wasn't able to fall asleep until like 7 or 8 this morning. So working on that. But thankful and so thankful. Thankful that the surgery has been successful that I no longer have intestinal tissue sticking through my abdominal muscle wall. So thankful that I've got friends that care about me. I know my family cares about me too. I don't hear from them much, but I don't hear from my friends all that often either. I hear a little bit from time to time from the people that live here on the land with me, which is good. They're really close. I'm also, I want to highlight, particularly thankful to friends and family members who donated to me directly in order to support me financially during the time of recovery that I've been going through because I haven't been working and I am not one of the lucky ones who has been collecting big fat unemployment checks all this time because I've been working part time. So everything helps and has helped and is helping. And I'm really, really grateful for that. And also I have a friend, Jennifer, who was brave enough, bold enough, courageous enough to come out here to Washington from Denver with her two sons, two and three years old. For a couple of weeks during my recovery, for the first week or so, I was fairly well engaged in playing with the boys and spending time hanging out with her. And then the last week, I mostly just slept. But I'm glad that they were able to come out and I'm thankful that they did and that I got to know them all a little bit better and that... And I'm thankful that they made it home safely since I talked to her yesterday, apparently. And I heard about this the day before that. Apparently there are massive fires going on in Colorado and in Denver there's smoke drifting in and ash raining down and all sorts of that. Which, yeah, is sad. I mean, I drove through Colorado a few years ago from Denver down to the southwest corner of the state and, man, I tell you what, I don't know how many hundreds of thousands of miles or tens of thousands or whatever. There is a lot of kindling in Colorado. I'm just talking like standing dead forests. So, yeah. A lot of potential for fire through there. And I hope that anyone who is living in those danger zones is able to evacuate expediently and safely. I wasn't expecting to talk about that, but, yeah, let's move on. Two time. I have three and a half minutes or so left before I hit my 15 minute soft mark. And I've only got one topic, which is a three-topic time, which, you know, there's the past and then there's the present and then there's the future. And... I don't know. It's been weird for me the past few days. I haven't... I didn't... I didn't make a plan for my after -recovery future beyond just, you know, I'm living here. I work here. So I'll just get back on the work schedule, tending to animals and helping with the egg business. And then... And then I don't know. I haven't... I haven't... I haven't got a plan. So what I need is a plan. And... I gotta come up with one. Or at least just, like, make lists. I might move. I don't know. Yeah, I mean, I guess, future, I might move past a couple months ago. I said a prayer, made a spell, just kind of called it out that sometime in the next year, I was going to find a teacher. And I guess I mean, like, a spiritual teacher, like a Qigong teacher. Something along those lines. Someone who can help me learn properly how to open up to, I don't know, I guess a healthier, happier, more easeful, powerful, vital way of being. Someone who lives in that way, in that space. And, you know, just by transmitting their knowledge and by transmitting their presence, that I can find myself enriched in those ways. And to that point, I had called it out a few months ago that I was going to find my teacher in the next year. And then, somewhere halfway between here in the surgery, I had a dream one night about going to New Mexico and sitting with my teacher. So, there's that. Which is kind of scary because I don't know... I don't know if I'm ready to just, like, pack it all up and move to the road again. I don't know if I'm ready to stay here for another winter, though, either. So, I really need a plan which I have every confidence as I continue to sober up and live right and just listen to the signs and sounds and dreams that come to me that I will find my answer. And that's my piece about time right now. And this has been me talking about all of my personal things on a podcast that is supposed to be about bigger things. But you've got to get through this a little to get to the big, I guess. All right, so I went a little bit over my time, which is good, not bad, and thank you.

Okay, so I'm just going to spill all these beans while I've got them in my pot. The Buddha gives a sutta about an arrow that's found having wounded a bird, killed a bird. Or no, wounded, the bird wasn't yet dead. And one of the monks picked up the bird and the monks found the arrow in the bird. And they said, oh, we must find out who shot this arrow to kill this bird. This is a great injustice that has been done. And the Buddha said, what matters right now is that we take the arrow out and care for the bird. So we all have an arrow wound in our heart. And what matters most is that we are able to find a way to ease our bodies and release and relax. And let the arrow come out so that we can begin the healing process. It doesn't really matter who shot the arrow that hit you because figuring that out isn't going to save your life. But for us now in this intellectual realm, I think that in order to have the ease that we need to let the arrow come out at this stage, we have to understand a few things. Whoever shot the arrow that is killing us, whether it was our parents or our peers or an institution, they were shooting in a blind rage. They probably weren't even aware of what they had done to you. They also have arrows in them that they were hit by from their parents or their institutions or their peers or some trauma that's passed. Where does it all begin? No one really knows. I think the Bible story about Abel and Cain is illustrative. I value the Bible a lot, although I'm not a literalist. I think the Bible is not necessarily true, but it is about the truth. And my understanding of the story of Cain and Abel is that there are these two brothers. One of them grows vegetables and one of them herds or haunts. I think he was a herder. But regardless, they both gather their food and make their meals and give offering. But Abel, the older brother, he didn't touch or taste his meat as food for himself until after he had offered it in worship to the Divine and thanked the Creator and honored the source of the food. And Cain tasted his first. There's a Native American story. I don't really know it. I can't remember the name of it or anything. I think it's Native American about this young man who comes to learn from an elder. It's a whole saga and he has to go find this magnificent fish and then he has to prepare the fish. And he's told, you have to give this fish to your master first. Don't taste it, don't eat it, not even anything while you're cooking it. And at some point he had touched the fish or touched some coals. He had the oil of the fish on his finger and he burnt his hand or something and almost reactively, mindlessly, without realizing it. He put his fingers to his mouth and he tasted this fish. And when his master came to receive the meal, he looked at him and he saw that something had happened and he said, did you taste it? And he said, yeah, I did. I'm sorry, it was an accident. I burned myself and I just put my hand in my mouth and without thought it happened and the master said, well, then you have to eat the whole thing. And, yeah, so in the story of Cain and Abel Cain, instead of giving grace to God, the Divine, Mother Earth, the source of life and spirit, all of these things with this meal. And before he gave offering, he was self-interested before he was... And then he saw how the blessings of his brother who was selfless first, how his older brother's blessings were greater and he became filled with jealousy and enmity and anger until he finally, in his selfish pride and rage and anger, wound up killing his brother. So, yeah, I mean, in some way there is some sense in which selfishness leads to poverty and poverty leads to anger and anger leads to violence and violence leads to sadness. We all wind up with this arrow that we received from someone who received it. It just keeps coming down the line, but we have to see that the source of all of these things is perhaps selfishness and that it's not about me. It's not about my wound. It's not about my lack. It's about my gratitude, my connections, my honoring of all the blessings that I receive, my part in participation in the community of life. And, yeah, turning all of that around in a way that helps us ease ourselves into a state of greater openness so that as the barbs, as the tissue of our body relaxes and releases, the barbs of the arrow don't rip us apart any further. So, yeah, the historical pattern of who did what to who and how we got here and who's to blame. I have a sense that everyone who's here now is necessary. The United States is a world stage. There are people from all continents here come to this land and we are here at this time because change is needed. And had the Europeans not come with the Africans, then we wouldn't have the Africans here now to learn from, to help us heal the wounds that caused us to flee in both exile and in excess from our homeland of Europe. There are still native indigenous peoples here and there are Asians here as well. There is a mixing of all the people in this place and it's a beautiful opportunity for all of us to learn from one another and to see that there are no differences between us beyond the differences that we, the distinctions that we have created for ourselves. We have been wearing our fathers' glasses. There's a movie Darjeeling Limited and these sons are traveling in India and they're all, they have artifacts of their dead father, his luggage, his things and suits. One of the sons is wearing a pair of glasses and he constantly is rubbing on his temples because he has these headaches and he has these headaches because he's wearing his father's glasses. And his father needed those glasses in order to see, you know, and that's, people have deficiencies, limitations, challenges and they use tools in order to have, to be able to clearly see the world, the way that the world around them sees things. But we are born with, we're born with different abilities, we're born with different insight, we're born with different perspective. And as long as we cling to the modifications of thought and behavior that the generations before us used in order to adapt to the world that they were in, we're going to give ourselves a headache. We have to acknowledge that I am wearing my father's glasses. The lens through which I see the world is not the prescription for my clarity.

Hey there, this is Luke and I'm going to read an essay that I wrote years ago. Genesis and the Agana Sutta Compared. An analysis on the origins of our human experience. This essay is intended to compare two pieces of scripture which detail the origins of the earth and life on the earth up to the troubles of mankind. The first piece of scripture is from the Bible, namely the book of Genesis. The second is the Agana Sutta, a Buddhist text in which Gautama the Buddha tells a story explaining how the case that his family was in came to be, and the other case as well. That part of the Sutta has been omitted since there is no comparative verse in Genesis. I will take a few liberties as I interpolate the comparisons between the two documents. I do this with the knowledge that neither of these compositions originate in English, though they are both presented in such here. As such, there are certainly shades of subtleties and word meanings in the originals that we could only wish to understand. That being said, let us begin at the beginning. In the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth, and the earth was waste and void, and darkness was upon the face of the deep, and the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters. From the Sutta, there comes a time Vasetha wins sooner or later after a long period this world contracts. At a time of contraction, beings are mostly born in the Abbasara Brahma world, and there they dwell, mind-made, feeding on delight, self-luminous, moving through the air, glorious, and they stay like that for a very long time. But sooner or later, after a very long period, this world begins to expand again. At a time of expansion, the beings from the Abbasara Brahma world, having passed away from there, are mostly reborn in this world. Here they dwell, mind-made, feeding on delight, self-luminous, moving through the air, glorious, and they stay like that for a very long time. So here we have the beginning. The heavens and the earth created or contracted in an expanded, much the same thing perhaps. Our current scientific model seems to support the expansion of the material universe from the Big Bang, and the Big Bang model was proposed by a Jesuit priest, so this all ties together nicely. And then, again from the Sutta, at that period Vasetha, there was just one mass of water, and all was darkness, blinding darkness. Neither moon nor sun appeared, no constellations or stars appeared, night and day were not yet distinguished, nor months, fortnight, years, and seasons. There was no male or female beings being reckoned just as beings. And sooner or later, after a very long period of time, savory earth spread itself over the waters where these beings were. It looked just like the skin, the skin that forms itself over hot milk as it cools. It was endowed with color, smell, and taste. It was the color of fine ghee or butter, and it was very sweet, like pure, wild honey. So here, you know, and I'm completely deviating out of the essay to highlight, you know, that in our comparison here, from the Sutta we have a world which is covered in water, which contains the presence of these beings which are self-luminous, which means that they need no light. There are no lights in the skies. There is no time. There are no seasons. There's this spirit over the water. Just like we find at the beginning of Genesis in verse 2, the earth was waste and void, and darkness was upon the face of the deep, and the spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters. Back to Genesis verse 3, and God said, Let there be light, and there was light. And God saw the light, that it was good. And God divided the light from the darkness, and God called the light day, and the darkness he called night. And there was evening, and there was morning, one day. And God said, Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters. And God made the firmament, and divided the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament. And it was so. And God called the firmament heaven. And there was evening, and there was morning, a second day. And then God said, Let there be lights in the firmament of heaven to divide the day. Now we're going to jump back over to the Suta. Then some being of a greedy nature said, I say, What can this be? Remember, we're dealing just with the earth as a body of water with thin skin of earth that has begun to appear. And this being tasted the savory earth on its finger. And so doing, it became taken with the flavor and craving arose in it. Then other beings taking their cue from that one also tasted the stuff with their fingers. They too were taken with the flavor and craving arose in them. So they set to with their hands, breaking off pieces of the stuff in order to eat it. And the result was that their self luminance disappeared. And as a result of the disappearance of their self luminance, the moon and the sun appeared. Night and day were distinguished. Months and fortnights appeared in the year and its seasons. To that extent, the world re-evolved. So here we have beings that created the world by interacting with it and by taking this film into themselves and thickening themselves from the domain of spirit into the gross material nature. Not gross like, but you know, less subtle. Back to Genesis. We had left off with God said, Let there be lights in the firmament of heaven to divide the day from the night and let them be for signs and for seasons and for days and years and let them be for lights in the firmament of heaven to give light upon the earth and it was so. And God made the two great lights, the greater light to rule the day and the lesser light to rule the night. He made the stars also and God set them in the firmament of heaven to give light upon the earth and to rule over the day and over the night and to divide the light from the darkness and God saw that it was good. And there was evening and there was morning, the fourth day. Now here we have the same events again. The order is a little different in which each describes the events. Did the salinity arise before the lights went out in the heavens? Is it significant? Could it be simultaneous? We also have a difference in the Judaic mythology. It's indicated God in the singular in the Buddhist mythology indicates these Brahmic beings in the plural. But there is some concurrence here too. Another thing also happens here. At this point in my selected quote, God stops seeing things are good after the fourth day. Also with the manifestation of the earth and then the greediness of the beings losing their self-luminance by partaking of the salinity atop of the waters, it develops for me a question. What did God see that was so good? Did he see that the new thing was good, this new development? Or did he see that what had been was good? And God saw that it was good. Or, and God saw that it was good. Perhaps these divine beings, God is seeing that what was, was better than what has become. Or maybe God as a greedy being is seeing the pleasure in the craving that is arising from this interaction. And that is the goodness that it is apprehending. But it's a matter of perspective. We see ourselves in this conundrum of how do we get back to God and it's easy to think, yeah, wow, it was good before the greed and the craving and the heaviness settled in. Back to the scriptures from Genesis and God said, Let the earth bring forth living creatures after their kind, cattle and creeping things and beasts of the earth after their kind. And it was so. And God made the beasts of the earth after their kind and the cattle after their kind and everything that creepeth upon the ground after its kind. And God saw that it was good. And God said, Let us make man in our image after our likeness. This is where the Judea God takes a moment to be plural as man is created in our image. And let them have dominion over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the heavens and over the cattle and over all the earth and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth. And God created man in his own image. In the image of God created he them, male and female he created them. And God blessed them and God said unto them, Be fruitful and multiply and replenish the earth and subdue it and have dominion over the fish of the sea and the birds of the heavens and over every living thing that moveeth upon the earth. And those beings continued for a very long time, feasting, this is back to the Suta, continued feasting on this savory earth, feeding on it and becoming nourished by it. And as they did so, their bodies became coarser and a difference in looks developed among them. Some being became good-looking, others ugly. And the good-looking ones despise the others, saying, We are better looking than they are. And because they became arrogant and conceited about their looks, the savory earth disappeared. At this they came together and lamented, crying, Oh that flavor, oh that flavor. And so nowadays when people say, Oh that flavor, when they have something nice, they are repeating an ancient saying without realizing it. Back to Genesis and God said, Behold, I have given you every herb yielding seed, which is upon the face of all the earth, and every tree in which the fruit of a tree yielding seed, to you it shall be for food. And to every beast of the earth and every bird of the heavens, and to everything that creepeth upon the earth, wherein there is life, I have given every green herb for food, and it was so. And out of the ground made Jehovah God to grow every tree that is pleasant to the sight and good for food, the tree of life also in the midst of the garden, and the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. And Jehovah God took the man and put him into the garden to eat and to dress it and keep it. And Jehovah God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat, but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil thou shalt not eat of it, for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die. And then when the savory earth disappeared, a fungus cropped up, in the manner of a mushroom. It was of good color, smell, and taste. It was the color of fine ghee or butter, and it was very sweet, like pure wild honey. And those beings set to and ate the fungus, and this lasted for a very long time, and they continued to feed on the fungus so that their bodies became coarser still. And the difference in their looks increased some more, and the good-looking ones despised the other. And because they became arrogant and conceited about their looks, the sweet fungus disappeared. Now creepers appeared shooting up like bamboo, and they too were very sweet, like pure wild honey. And those beings set to and fed on those creepers, and as they did so, their bodies became even coarser still. And the difference in their looks increased still more, and they became still more arrogant. And so the creepers disappeared too. At this time, they came together and lamented, crying, Alas, our creepers are gone. What have we lost? And so now, today, when people want being asked why they are upset, say, oh, what we have lost, they are repeating an ancient saying without realizing it. And then after the creepers had disappeared, rice appeared in open spaces, free from powder and from husks, fragrant and clean grain. And what they had taken in the evening for supper had grown again and was ripe in the morning. And what they had taken in the morning for breakfast was ripe again by evening, with no sign of reaping. And these beings set to and fed on this wild rice, and this lasted for a very long time. And as they did so, their bodies became coarser still, and the difference in their looks became even greater. And the females developed female sex organs, and the males developed male sex organs. And the women became excessively preoccupied with the men and the men with the women. Owing to this excessive preoccupation with each other, passion was aroused, and their bodies burnt with lust. And later, because of this burning, they indulged in sexual activity. But those who saw them indulging through dust, ashes, or cow dung at them, crying, die, you filthy beast, how can one being do such things to another? Back to the scriptures of Genesis, and the man said, This is now bone of my bones and flesh of my flesh. She shall be called woman, because she came out of man. Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave unto his wife, and they shall be one flesh. And they were both naked to man and wife, and they were not ashamed. Now the serpent was more subtle than any beast of the field which Jehovah God had made. And he said unto the woman, Ye hath God said ye shall not eat of any tree of the garden. And the woman said unto the serpent of the fruit of the trees of the garden we may eat, but of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God hath said, ye shall not eat it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die. And the serpent said unto the woman, ye shall not surely die. For God hath known that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall see, shall be, as God, knowing good and evil. And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was a delight to the eyes, and the tree was to be desired to make one wise, she took of the fruit thereof and did eat. And she gave also unto her husband with her that he did eat. And the eyes of them both were opened, and they knew that they were naked, and they sowed fig leaves together, and made themselves aprons. And unto Adam he said, because thou hast hearkened unto the voice of thy wife, and hast eaten of the tree, of which I commanded thee, saying thou shalt not eat of it, cursed is the ground for thy sake, in toil shall thou eat of it all the days of thy life, thorns also, and thistles shall it bring forth to thee, and thou shall eat the herb of the field, in the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return to the ground, for out of it was thou taken, for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return. Back to the Sutta. Now it occurred to one of those beings who was inclined to laziness, well now why should I be bothered to gather rice in the evening for supper, and again in the morning for breakfast? Why shouldn't I gather it all at once for both meals? And he did so. Then another one came to him and said, come let's go rice gathering. He replied, no need my friend, I've gathered enough for both meals. Then the other, following his example, gathered enough rice for two days at a time, saying that should be about enough. Then another being came to that second one and said, come let's go rice gathering. No need my friend, I gathered enough for two days. This one did four, then eight. However, when those beings made a store of rice and lived on that, husk powder and husk began to envelop the grain, and where it was reaped it did not grow again, and the cut place showed, and the rice grew in separate clusters. Then Vasetha, one greedy natured being, while watching over his own plot, took another plot that was not given him, and enjoyed the fruits thereof. So they seized hold of him and said, you've done a wicked thing taking another's plot like that, don't ever do such a thing again. I won't, he said, but he did the same thing a second and again a third time. Again he was seized and rebuked, and some hit him with their fists, some with stones and some with sticks, and in this way Vasetha, taking what was not given, and censuring and lying in punishment, took their origin. One little quick note from Genesis jumping ahead quite a bit, and then Cain killed Abel. And so we live to this day, and to me the element that sticks out in the comparison between these two texts is that in the Torah everything is fine until there's one great sin, one significant inexplicable transgression of all of the sudden which after which things are very much unwell, whereas with the Polycanon we find that things get gradually worse, with each selfish or lazy decision made by these beings turning themselves worldly by the continual application of their judgment. Such a stark difference perhaps explains why one tradition seems to suggest that we must wait for God to eventually restore mankind to a pristine state, and the other that we must discover this state by releasing the very same ill nature that created it. Also the Messiah of that first tradition already stopped by and told on us to work on it for ourselves as well. So that's, yeah that's the essay that I wrote a long time ago, and there's a lot more that I'd like to say, but this was really just a recording exercise for a just get my chops moving, get things flowing, and also revisit that revisit that essay, because this is really something that I definitely want to unpack and probably even make into the first episode of my podcast. So I'm glad this happened, and it's going to give me something to work with, and we'll play more with it later. So that's 20 minutes recorded, and I feel good about that.

and cut the audio output there so we'll just talk freeform whatever and then I can go back and edit it later yeah so you are you are how do I how do you identify what's your name are recording yeah like I said we're just gonna freeform just talk right now and everything is everything else is gonna get later on yeah yeah totally yeah my name is Liam Rockwell hi Liam Rockwell so I've had the great pleasure of knowing you for almost a year now I met you in November and we live on land together in Shemakam Washington which is really cool and so yeah I'm gonna I'm doing a podcast and just recording things a lot of it is just stuff of my own but then also I want to have an element where I bring other people in other voices and ask questions talk about ideas that kind of thing I think you know a lot of podcasts like they do interviews with famous people because that draws in more listeners and I think hey you know everybody has a unique and interesting valuable perspective and I especially love the perspectives of the people most immediate in my life and you're one of those people and so yesterday I did the same kind of thing with Alex and sat down and actually asked him about the same question that I'm gonna ask you about today which is about guru and so I guess the first simplest question then is what does that word mean to you guru yeah you cut that out oh yeah yeah yeah yeah when I think about guru the first thing I think about is teacher like not all teachers are gurus but I think gurus are often teachers but also like something else something of like they have access to some something some knowing or knowledge or story that is people will bring a different kind of experience and someone else right yeah yeah the first thing that came to mind you know and you know you come across this in a lot of different places I think what's coming to mind for me right now is like Marcus Aurelius in his meditations he recommends that if you're going to learn something from someone it's best to learn that thing from a master someone who has the depth of knowledge like what you're talking about so that when you're trying to acquire this knowledge yourself you're learning it you know from the most reliable source so had a fair amount of time to like integrate and like get to a space of like strong consideration of all the different implications of whatever you're trying to talk about whether it be like philosophy or like mathematics yeah or sandal making whatever right yeah although often I think crafts is it often like mastery master artisans that's one kind of category which could be a guru but guru is those most often in the spiritual realm at least in terms of my like knowledge of it right yeah to use that word like they're guru like kind of often is like right so are there for you when you think of guru as a person and embodied being what what comes to mind for you have you do you have any guru experience or any any persons that you look to either you know contemporary or in history I haven't really I would say I haven't really followed any guru in terms of using that language like there's many people that have been powerful inspirations and like really have brought forward something that I'm like I don't know where you're coming from with that but I like it like that's really what's what's an example of that for me the strongest thing is Don Miguel Ruiz hmm he's the person who wrote the four agreements and those books came into my life at like just the right time yeah what was that time for you it was for me post-college breaking up with the girlfriend moving out of Olympia right and the exact scene that I was struggling with was the the oncoming understanding that my worth is like coming from another person being away in a relationship with me that's very confusing I didn't love myself hmm yeah and I didn't understand that I wasn't in connection with it and that's one of the core practices of I think the Toltec perspective that he's bringing is that you kind of share what you do not hold for your own self and he has his own understanding to describe what it's like to not have self-love and then what it means to be in self-love and the ways to go about raising that capacity and it was just like damn that's what's going on yeah and it was very powerful and I've been set it set me on a course that feels very different than where I was going before well and I'm not he's the closest person that have to a guru right in my life have very many teachers that I like pick from in the agriculture realm is like Joel Salatin Mark Shepard John my 1040 a so many different like pioneers and like agricultural realm yeah when you when you mentioned Don Miguel Ruiz and you're talking about the four agreements it's funny because for me you know I've read that book a few times over several years and anytime somebody asks me about it now I almost feel like it's just it's shorthand for like what I have what I recognize is one of my own shortcomings they'll say oh have you have you read the four agreements you know about the four agreements and I'm like yes I know and I'm terrible about taking things personally I know exactly what you're trying to tell me that you know like because one of those four agreements is not to take things personally and I just I live with my heart on my shoulder so the wisdom that he has to impart there is something that it you know it's it's it's really like I said I've read the book several times over several years it's one of those those those lessons that you can just come back to it over and over and over again and see how like that room for self-transformation is still available yeah but it sounds like you know from your exposure to to his wisdom what he's had to share that that process of transformation has has really started to take effect for you yeah I'd say like more specifically like he brought forward a space of like this matters to your experience and this is important right and I didn't have that before and so a sense of like understanding like how this part of my space my story my experience like if you pay attention to this area like giving yourself like compassion love that is gonna cascade across all of things like where do you put your attention in order to facilitate like right livelihood or best living yeah and he has a perspective that I appreciate in that yeah I think kind of that's kind of the area where gurus kind of do their work like how should we live how should we be which is a little different than like profits which are like this is what's happening this is what's coming up oh okay yeah I mean they kind of like they're different but they are kind of in similar ish categories so I mentioned this when I was talking with Alex the word guru as was explained to me at one point if you take the the syllables of it so you got goo in Roo and then goo basically like points to darkness and Roo points to the light and so the guru is the being that that brings you from the darkness to the light that enlightens some aspect I guess ultimately you know like especially when you're thinking of like a spiritual guru someone who you know has that mastery you know lives with that clarity of sight and vision perspective on you know life and reality and and and all of these things and can transmit that to you in some way that you can kind of start to take it on your own yeah what was Roo is being I think light yeah I think it's light yeah so goo was darkness so from darkness to light I see so the guru brings you from the darkness to the light what language is that I think it's Sanskrit yeah I think also there's something about in terms of these are the word guru like in the culture of people like you mean like in society now our Western culture or or just in general like it doesn't seem like a Western concept right for like a guru right to use that language to call someone that yeah and that like almost doesn't have the same meaning in like Washington State as would I think in somewhere in India right right like there is an understanding like what that means and all the all the like appropriate so like like manners you have with someone is like that and you know like sure are they called themselves a guru I don't know some of them do I mean it's not it's not common you know here in the United States it's like to you know if I was to call myself a guru sound pretty self aggrandizing are you familiar with with Ram Dass no no okay so Ram Dass was this guy who he had been in his professional career he was a professor at Harvard back in like the 50s and early 60s and then he worked with Timothy Leary in the psychology department or whatever and Timothy Leary do you know that name he's basically the person who like turned the United States on to LSD in the 1960s so these guys did a lot of self experimentation with a lot of different substances and then later on in the 60s Ram Dass Richard Alpert having they so they both got cast out of Harvard because there were some ethical challenges with the kinds of work that they were doing it's a very good way to put it yeah and so so so Richard Alpert gets a bottle of like pure Sandos lab LSD and starts wandering around India to like try to figure out like hey what's what is this magic bottle that I'm hold like what is this where is it taking us because young had given Leary and Alpert a copy of the Tibetan Book of the Dead and they realized like studying this book that the Bardo states like some of the substances that they were taking them that they had been ingesting were taking them into these kinds of like mental realms that very much mapped on to what they were learning about from the Bardo from the book of the dead so he takes to LSD out to India and starts giving it to like every you know every guru looking you know person with the matted hair or Buddhist monk or whatever be like here try this and tell me tell me what it means like help me decode this chemical what is this experience what is it showing me and some of these guys you know some of these monks were like oh meditation is way better you'll get way more places than this can only take you is one place and some of them would be like oh wow that's amazing can I have some more and finally he winds up he winds he meets he meets this other Westerner this guy and they they like saw do out and bum around India for a couple of months until the younger guy is like oh no my visa I've got issues I need to go see my guru and so they drive up into this little mountain village in northern India near the Himalayas and Richard Alpert's just like this guy's guru whatever man I've met enough of these crackpots at this point like I'm not into it anymore so he just stays out in the car while while the young guy goes to go see this dude and then the next like that night the next morning whatever finally they talk him out of leaving the Land Rover and coming and meeting this guy so his name was Neem Karoli Baba and he was a Baba and he would you know he that's what everybody called him he he lived from temple to temple and just like you know the he was fed mostly by you know like the people that were just like devoted to what he embodied and as soon as Richard Alpert met him he just like got hit with this wave of presence of being and he just like he just like dropped to his feet like wow this is it I found the guy and so you know for some people there there are those beings that really you know just like being around them just alters reality you know right we're like it shifts your experience yeah in a in a significant way yeah totally I in fact so this Neem Karoli Baba guy that I'm talking about he actually came to me in a dream once yeah so I'll tell this story you know so when I meditate a lot of times after I meditate there will be a point where I'll you know like and I actually don't do this much anymore but you know like I'll prostrate you know like kneel forward and put my head down to the ground and all of that and so in this dream he's got his hand on the back of my head and he's literally pushing my face down so that like my forehead and my nose are touching the ground he's like and it was it was you know I didn't hear a voice but the words were like communicated to me and he was very clearly saying like if you're gonna bow go all the way down yeah but at the same time like this being with his hand on the back of my head pushing my head into the ground it's not in a forceful way and I feel this like playful nature and love at the same time as I'm getting this you know like really humbling instruction yeah yeah so that was my experience and I think maybe that's because I went to one of his temples out in New Mexico and like knelt down in front of the thing at some point and then you know this was like half a year later probably when I had this dream but yeah yeah I mean you can definitely pick up when someone's riding some other way but listen to some other drum than you are yeah or better for worse right and the something powerful about accompaniment in presence yeah the image that came into my mind as you were saying that is like you know here's somebody who's dancing to their own tune in such a strong way they're just being around them like you hear that tune and you start dancing that dance yeah as well we have we have such clear like connection with the people around us right or at least we have that potential yeah always yeah there's some type of harm that makes it to be withdrawn for some hat or cut just to get access to something I don't know I'm not sure that the word is is this Hagen's experiences like some files like to fall so far short like being in conversation or being in being and in just in presence yeah how does that show what most for you in your life as you're living it right now one thing's been going on for me recently has been really looking to others my partner to provide that presence in the way that I'm wanting to experience yeah and to kind of ride on that wave which has been a source of a lot of conflict partner because she is doing her thing I do my thing I should do my thing more strongly and show up in a more clear way and so in the past couple weeks been a kind of this circling of this aspect of like coming back more strongly into my own holding of presence yeah and not as leaning into the stories of the and the kind of like connections and like mattering of the other people around me I think a lot of origins of that is like my own worry and fear and doubt and it's easier to kind of lean back onto the offerings of someone else's presence if things are like more in discord and difficult in my own space of course got me in a deep water with myself because then I lose that spark of life of that creation right of like I'm actually unfolding the events to the way that I really need them to be or to fulfill what I wish to see and it's not one of the others always a range of things and it's a gradient of how much into your own presence and holding space or in kind of in kind of connective association with someone else and like letting them take the lead right like hold let them hold space the word that's the word that's coming up in my mind right now is authenticity and I feel like to my ear like what I'm hearing you say speaks a lot to you know finding the space within yourself to connect with what is your most authentic inner reality expression like yeah like where do you find your authentic truth in who and how you are in the moment without letting yeah you know like all of the external factors and other energies kind of subsume you from that presence of your own authentic truth yeah and having that being really coming forward in a clear for ease sometimes with an ease full clarity even that yeah ideally right not always the case uncommonly I would say but sometimes accessible yeah and that's a beautiful thing yeah because I'm I think it's both being accompanied but also coming with your own truth I think that's the ideal there's this phrase that I really enjoy that I didn't get for a while I understand it more now is like we have to do it by ourselves and we can't do it alone we have to do yeah yeah no absolutely like no one else can like allow us or like inspire us into our own breathing in and experience of our own story right and and that story is not happening in isolation yeah it's and it was within the context of all the what's going around you and the people are also with us that are informing it as well yeah that's super important Liam thank you you're welcome thank you for your time and your insight I feel like this has been a really good conversation I hope you've enjoyed it mm-hmm I have good yeah so this is I'm for me this is fun it's a fun little experiment I think I don't know my hope you know is that having conversations like these and and shining awareness into these questions and and what they mean for us and having the ability to share it with other people you know might you know in some way you know even just for a moment like bring up some new thought or some new perspective or the opportunity to realize like hey there's this other way that I can you know harness my attention and focus my awareness and kind of find that clarity and understand that other people are going through similar things or have the same kinds of questions that I've got about these things mm-hmm so I really appreciate your willingness to to jump on and just see where it say you see where it takes and just play with me in my microphone yeah yeah I like it cool thanks a lot you're welcome

Okay, so we'll just dive right in and my name is Luke. We'll use the nom de plume Uncle Luke. Uncle Luke and Uncle Ben. Uncle Ben. I don't go by Uncle Ben every day, but in this particular conversation I feel called to, so. Do you do wild rice? No, only minute made. Okay, so this conversation, I feel like this conversation is, I got the microphone out and we just hit record, we're just going to go with it. My hope is this is going to be one of many conversations between Uncle Luke and Uncle Ben because this hopefully is going to go in a podcast feed and just get thrown out there sometime in the month of April of the year 2020 because right now it's, what is it, it's the 20 30th? 30th. 30th. Depending on where you are it's actually 1 a.m. the 31st back in Florida where my family lives or midnight where your family lives. Anyway, so this is indicative of the emergent conversational nature that this podcast may take. I'm glad to be in it, regardless of whether or not it hits the airwaves because I've got my feet up on the counter here and drinking a cup of tea with my friend Luke. I'm getting jealous because I want to put my feet up too so I'm going to move some stuff around. Now we decided we were just going to not even pick a topic specifically for the conversation other than to continue the conversation where we left off when I said, hey, let's go ahead and grab the microphone and hit record. And we were talking about, oh, just common everyday things. No, no, we were talking about preaching. We were talking about getting out there and spreading the word of our faith. Of our faith, of our deepest knowings of life, the universe and everything. So oftentimes that traverses the realms of religion and spirituality. Where I'm really interested is where it intersects with daily life and how we integrate these things into our life. We'll enter this conversation acknowledging that as you spoke so eloquently a minute ago about the Bhagavad Gita and the Four Noble Truths and the Book of Mark and everything else, I'm actually quite a novice when it comes to being spiritually red. And also quite a novice despite how much secular spirituality I've read. I'm a novice at actually integrating it into my life. While I have high aspirations, it's something I've not had as much practice in as humbling as that is to say in what may be a public format. Let me give you a sneak preview and everybody else. One of the things that I've learned from the reading that I've done is that it's granular. No matter how much you learn, you always feel like you're back at the beginning because it loops back around and every time you think you've got it figured out, the same thing you learned four years ago, you learn the same exact thing but at a deeper level of how it applies to the inner workings of yourself. So there's so much that we've heard and that we know and that we've said but it's that key step of integrating. How do you play it into your life? How do you practice it? And then how does it deepen into understanding the subtler and subtler levels of detail of what any given thing. So you were talking about being not actually a Jehovah's Witness but going out and putting out your cart with your pamphlet. I'm curious, what would be your pamphlets over the front of your pamphlet say? What's your elevator pitch? What a fantastic question. For me, the deepest inspiration spiritually in my life has revolved around the awe-inspiring capacity of life and the processes of evolution. From a more secular point of view, the most traction in my own being is around what I can touch and what I can feel. I work with and I talk with a lot of people that are more consciousness-based, awareness-based and of course everything is based in energy and awareness. I find the study of life and evolution to be so compelling because there's principles and patterns within life forms and systems that are thriving that can be seen and felt and replicated. So like the difference between a monoculture field, whether that be a literal field or the culture of suburban America, how beautiful and creative and how much learning capacity does that have compared to a really diverse ecosystem or a place like a metropolitan area where there's diversity of worldview coming together. Can I rope you in for a second? Oh please. Because I ask you, not to be pointing my finger even though I'm pointing my finger, I ask you for an elevator pitch and whatever you're talking about sounds great, but I'm actually confused right now. Yes? Yes. Tell me what. You know, in elevator pitches, right? I do, yeah. You're in the elevator, you've got like 30 seconds. I'm just saying like front of the pamphlet, like if you're going to go out there, what's the front of your pamphlet say? What are you trying to communicate to an individual just as the initial conversation starter? Hi. Hi, I'm Uncle Ben. Let me tell you about... Well, I actually think that it's more question oriented than statement oriented. I have my own views on what the purpose of life is, but I think that it might be a little too obtuse just to say straight up or ask straight up. What do you believe the purpose of life is? Well, straight up let me ask you, what do you believe the purpose of life is? I'm glad you asked. Okay. I asked really excellent questions. Based on my study of living systems and evolution and based on my experience lived, I really believe that life at large evolves into greater learning and greater complexity and greater patterns of creativity and synergy, like multiple beings and systems coming together to integrate and make something more beautiful than the sum of their parts. So we're two or more gathered, you know, this greatness. I'm throwing some verses in there. Yeah, I know a little bit of Christianity. I was raised Methodist as we talked about earlier. Right. Yeah. But I think that would be my leading question and I could launch more deeply into it. But I have a curiosity now because you're so enthralled with mine. What your elevator pitch would be in 30 seconds? If I was going to give... Okay. Well, so here's my elevator pitch. It's easy. I've given it a few times before in the past. So I was raised Catholic, I wasn't raised Methodist, but same books as I understand it. I looked into it. I did my studying and the message is repent. Repent for the kingdom of God is at hand. Now, in order to go further than that, we have to understand what that sentence means. Repentance in the Greek means metanoia. Meta being changed, noia, nus, the soul, the breath, the spirit. Metanoia, repent, change your spirit, realign the focus of your life. For the kingdom of God, the divine realm, bliss, ananda, pure being, natural state, open mind, clear awareness, complete and utter surrender and release. It's at hand. It's right here. It's right now. Turn around. Come in. Sit down. Be here. Right now, this is it. This is everything. Here's God. Welcome home. That's my elevator pitch. I think he came in at 29 seconds too. That was great. I don't know. I'll have to time it. But yeah, that's my pitch. And then obviously, you pointed to the fact that I can throw down with a bunch of different verses and a bunch of different... Because I agree, talking about how when two or more are gathered, when you've got multiple people and the energy of the synergy of the systems and the connections. So I'm sure in this conversation, other conversations, the topic will come up around spirituality, religion, consciousness, mysticism. At some point, you've got to talk about mind altering substances. And I've dabbled a little bit. And I actually had an experience back in July. Had some San Pedro and just passed out. Woke up in the middle of the night. One word came to me, concrescence. Just that growing together. And really, I think that the synergy, the evolution, that concrescence. That coming together of beings, the shared root system, the shared canopy. Well, in order for that to happen, really, it comes back to your elevator pitch. An awestruck appreciation for what is. I was just listening to a podcast with Richard Rohr, a Franciscan priest. And he was just saying, really, what the contemplative mind is, we're hoping to impart to these young priests, is that it is what it is, what it is, what it is. And that there's no judgment, no nothing that needs to come with that when we can meet other people in that place. Where whatever behavior or trait they're displaying, whether it be labeled as good or bad in the regular world, it just is who they are. And how can I relate to that person in a way that builds trust and relationship? That makes the synergy possible. I want to take a step back. And I want to take, so let's say we're driving at 40 miles an hour. Let's drive at like 15, 20 miles an hour. Walk me through that again. What it is. What it is. A little bit slower. What it is. What it is. Precisely. Hmm. What it is. As you said, it's looking around and realizing that this is it. Have you seen Waking Life? I have seen Waking Life. There's a point in that movie, or is it Waking Life? Where the two people are sitting across from each other having a holy moment. And there's this amazing point where they just deepen into each other's eyes. And of course in the animation style, the hair begins to flow back and the clouds part and the sun comes through. But it's this, oh, I cry when I watch it because it's this representation of just honoring what's right in front of us. This miracle of being through which ABC and XYZ are much more beautiful. And it is what it is. Yeah. Well, that's all for tonight's talk. Yeah, I mean, I guess so. We could stop it there if we want. No, no, no. No, no. Oh, we do. Well, if we're going to go at the rate of the tea, I could be here all night because I'm sipping very slowly. Well, let's, I'm going to talk about that a little bit then. So you brought up Waking Life, Richard Linklater, right? Richard Rohr. No, no, no. Richard Rohr was the priest that you were listening to. Linklater was the director of Waking Life. And so the scene that you're talking about that holy moment is actually from a Philip K. Dick novel called Flow My Tears to Policeman Said. I'm a nerd. I mean, I reference a lot of books a lot of the time because I've just spent so much of my life reading. And Philip K. Dick is amazing. Okay, so Philip K. Dick in Flow My Tears to Policeman Said, there's this moment that occurs where the main character lands his car. They had flying cars in the sci-fi guy. He lands his car at this service station. And there's this elderly black man who's also there who's trying to get some fuel, but he doesn't have money to buy the fuel or whatever. And so he helps him. And then they share this holy moment. Philip K. Dick really in so many ways was a channel. Like he didn't, he could write an entire novel in a night. He didn't plan things out. Things just came out. And he was fairly convinced that reality as he knew it in the 1960s and 1970s, that was all actually a projection. And in reality he was back in like 50 AD in Palestine in the wake of like the Roman oppression between the time of the life of Christ and the Romans destroying the temple. And he sat down after he had written Flow My Tears and published it and everything. He sat down with the priest and they went through that holy moment. And it actually refers specifically to a scene in the book of Acts where one of the disciples meets an Ethiopian. He's like an attendant to the king or something. And they have this moment where he's like, yeah, I found these scriptures and then he explains to them what they mean. And they have this moment and they walk down to the river. And the disciple baptizes the Ethiopian. And then literally in that moment just the spirit just whisks the disciple. He winds up in a town like 20 miles away. So a whole lot of storytelling there. But the holy moment, that connection, that is what it is. I think that we find this moment possible in any moment, of course. But for those, and I may date myself because I'm sure this podcast will become wildly popular in 20 years from now. You'll still be listening to this. 20 years from now, everyone will just be dancing out in the forest. What's going on right now? We're in the middle of the first worldwide pandemic of my life. Yeah, of our generation. COVID-19, coronavirus. And I've been working. COVSARS2 is what I'm seeing a lot now. Far too many names. El Presidente refers to it as the Chinese virus. Oh my God. 45. I'm working with a non-profit now called New Stories. And Bob Stilger, longtime practitioner and crisis mediator, if you will, was in Japan directly after the triple disasters with the tsunami and the nuclear fallout and everything. So you triple earthquake tsunami? Earthquake tsunami and nuclear. You only mention the two. Usually one necessitates the other. But we're living in a world where epidemics, pandemics, especially a global pandemic, never happened in our lifetimes in the world that we've lived in. And so somebody else at some other point, they might be like, okay, well, he said triple, but he only mentioned two things. What was the third thing? I mean, if some 12-year-old out there is listening to this, who has no awareness of the Fukushima event and everything that led up to it. And if he can count to three, he's obviously... He's going to be like, he only mentioned two things. What was the third thing? As I was saying, Bob Stilger, he's working with a lot of the Japanese local governments and citizens post the triple disaster. Rebecca Solnit, who I listened to a podcast a couple of days back, was in Katrina right after these disasters. What we're experiencing right now in New York City and all across the world is this communal coming together where it's not actually the high moments of life. I mean, of course, this holy moment is available there and it's available in the everyday moments, but in crisis where we're at right now. There's so many people coming together out of a sense of just sheer shared humanity. And I find that so beautiful. As we were talking about earlier, with spirituality, and with this young priest bringing this Ethiopian to baptism, shared worldview, when we realized that we're truly in this together, I think is a real fertile ground for that holy moment. And I'm just fascinated at how something seemingly tragic, filled with suffering, can also have that kind of effect on our psychies, on our spiritual bodies. We get into our habit. We have our routine. The things that we have become accustomed to, the addictions that we enjoy, or just the coping mechanisms, what we have to do to get through the day, to make it in life, and then all of a sudden something happens and the world is just radically different. Eckhart Tolle and plenty of other people have had those experiences where they're just at their lowest point and then all of a sudden, boom, snap. The door just busts open and they realize there's so much more and it's so different than the construct that I had in my mind. Whatever it is, it is deeply and profoundly deep and profound. I didn't know what else to go with that, but just turn it right back around to where I'd come from. I mentioned sometime in the past couple of weeks, as life around us has been shifting into this new gear of living in a lockdown state, that it reminded me a lot of, for me, I grew up on the Gulf Coast and we had hurricanes that would come through. This was before Katrina, before Global Weirding had taken storms to the level that they're at now, where every year, pretty much, we would have a couple of something between a tropical storm or a category two hurricane that would blow through. For that week or so that the storm would come through, schools would shut down, stores would close, people would be in shelters, and me with my dad, our family, we were involved with the Red Cross and so we would just be driving supplies from this town to that town and just doing that kind of thing. But just the way that life changes when the routine has to stop because there are more pressing needs, that it really gives us the opportunity to realize, wow, my routine was a prison. Now that I'm out, I can see there is a different way of being and it feels really good. And I think this is looping back to that thing that you were talking about in the beginning about how as things grow and as things evolve and as connections happen between people and there is that synergy, the question then becomes, okay, wow, I had that moment. I went down to the river and I got cleaned. The scales fell off of my eyes, I feel like a new being, but how do I take that moment and bring it into all of the other moments that are going to come after this? How do I abandon those old habits and start to tell the new story of my life? That is the precise reason why listeners can't see this, but I had the word awe tattooed on my wrist. It's the only bigger tattoo that I have on my buddy. And not all like AWW, but AWE. Yeah, wonder, because it was actually during a psychedelic experience, I came back to this sense of wanting to remember, like how can I not forget this? How do I bring this into my daily life? How do I keep it in my daily life? And to be frankly honest, the tattoo didn't do it, so I'm still in the quandary. I'm curious if you've come to any... I do. I have some insights to share on that. So today I took a long bath, and when I went into the long bath, at least the first time around, I didn't bring my phone or book or anything. It was just me in the bathtub. And I just was thinking, just mulling over. So you know this. Our listeners will learn a lot more about it as time goes by, but I just got done with a 20-day retreat. It was broken up into three parts, five days and six days and nine days, of isolation in a small cabin in complete darkness. And for anybody who has heard of a post-in retreat, or anybody like a meditation retreat, normally with meditation retreats that are pretty easily accessible, you spend about 10 days not communicating with anyone, but you move around, you go from your domicile to the dining area, to the meditation hall, and you sit. And you develop concentration, and you learn how to just be present with what you've got, your mind, your body, and just the world around you without the constant stimuli of, especially now in the 21st century with the cyborg life of having a computer in your hand half the day, and having earbuds in your ear, either modulating the frequencies of your mind with sounds or with words. Before I went in my third round in my dark retreat, before I went in for the nine days, I had stopped by the library, picked up a copy of Asimov Science Fiction from November, December of 2019. In the letter to the editor, I was talking about the power of telepathy and how the written word is mind control, because in the moment that you are reading the words that have been written by one person, they are now the words that are running through your mind as you read them. You have given control of your mind to the writer of the words in front of you. In fact, anyone who's listening to this right now... You're being brainwashed. Yes, I'm going to brainwash your mind, but don't worry, I'm going to use Mrs. Meyers or something like that. I'm not going to use any harsh chemicals. You mentioned the word remember, and he used the word remember because he was pointing back to Socrates. So on the topic of literacy, according to Plato, Socrates said the young men should not be literate because we don't want them to be taught. We want them to remember, because in that time, in the bathtub, with contemplation, without any stimuli of books or music or anything to read, spending 20 days in the dark with nothing even to see, literally nothing but the contents of my mind and the sensations of my body and the sounds of the environment around me, it's kind of like, you know, super old computers back in the day, you'd write a program in punch cards and you put those cards into a hopper and then the computer takes all the cards in and then it runs to a program that's stamped into the cards. The way that we live our lives right now is that we are constantly, constantly jamming more and more cards into the hopper. We never stop. We never stop with the input to just let it settle to let the calculation calculate, to like find, to find ground and the process of putting it down. You know, I mean, maybe now, maybe you want to wait until after the end of this conversation happens or this podcast ends or after you go to Patreon and donate some money or whatever, but... We have a Patreon? No, right now we've just got a recorder but in the future, who knows? Anything's possible. But just put it, I mean, in this right now, and everyone is in their own different situation, people have families, children, and da-da-da, but a lot of people, this is a great time, this is the best time to just put it down. Being in quarantine because of a global pandemic? Right, yeah. We are all being forced to slow down and yet I know my tendency is to pick up the phone and scroll Facebook because I need to know about everything that's happening but I've now deleted it from my phone. Bravo. And much like you're suggesting, perhaps at the end of this conversation, letting things integrate. Letting the grand calculator do its magical work with all this beautiful information so that one can, if I could extrapolate from what you're saying, perhaps begin critically thinking on your own. Perhaps begin experiencing from what's been gathered and creatively expressing. There's so many options from what is normally a force-fed diet of zeros and ones and everything in between. Well, yes and, I want to yes and you, this is improv because we didn't plan any of this out, I'm going to pull back to the word remember because we're going to break it apart into re and member. And you talked about integration so that's the perfect word for remembering because what we are is like a limb is a member of my body. I want to remember, I want to pull myself back together into oneness and one is an integer and integers are important for integrity I love playing with words because they really help bring it all together when you consider the meaning. When we allow when we allow the stimulation to die down the super sensorium of streaming video and conference calls and podcasts and the newest albums that come out and all of the things and all of the feelings and even the meals and we just take the time to just be here and now wherever that may be whatever sounds may be naturally arising around you whatever feeling you might have in your body even if it's the sensation of your breath the feeling of your chest or your belly rising and falling with each inhale or exhale the presence of mind that says it just asks this simple question can I let that go? Can I relax? Can I rest in the state that I'm in right now? It's perfectly natural for thoughts to arise all of the unresolved emotional things all of the business that we have to attend to all of the obligations and expectations that we have but we can acknowledge that our ability to address those things really is typically only present in the moment where we're dealing with that person actually face to face where we have the ability to have the holy moment with that person or take the holy moment to pay that bill but the time that we spend thinking about the doing of the thing or the conversation to be resolved or the emotional crisis to be fixed we can let that go and we can be here just right here just right now just feeling just breathing just hearing and relax re again we're just going to come back to the laxity we're just going to release we're just going to loosen a little bit we're going to feel how open the sky is regardless of how close the clouds are the sky that holds the clouds is boundless I feel like from that place of ease and emptiness and integration there are approximately 1,364 integral forks of conversation all beautiful and wonderful that could come from that holy moment in this moment or another when we relax to that degree and for the sake of sounding cliche maybe that's where we could end this conversation oh yeah no I think that sounds like a great idea I think that this is a perfect moment to relax and rest because it is what it is what it is what it is thank you all so much for your attention I truly have nothing but wishes of good will for all of you compassion for you wherever you may be whatever the situation may be with you and your loved ones I appreciate who you are and how you bring it to the world and whatever is going on in the world around us at the time in which you might be hearing this may we all find some balance in our ability to be here now thank you while of course working on your 30 second elevator pitch just gotta keep it real you do what you do see you guys

out. So my name is Luke and your name is Alex. Hey Alex. So what I'm going to do now is I'm just going to record everything just whatever comes out comes out and then later on we can play with I'll play with all sorts of stuff in the edit and try to repackage it whatever. So I told you that I wanted to talk for a little while, at least for as long as you've got about gurus. And I'll let you I honestly like I just got so much that I want to say that I just want to spill it out but I also don't want to just like start preaching at you on my microphone because maybe I'm a crazy person. So let's let's hear from you first. What is what is the word guru mean to you? Okay well I'd say the word guru and how it has influenced my life kind of goes like this I was given this idea that I needed to find the guru to continue my path. So do you mind if I interrupt and ask questions as you go? Yeah. When were you when did you when did you learn this or come to this this knowing? Wow it kind of filtered in over the past 10 years I don't remember a certain moment. Okay so keep going. Yeah and I quickly realized that at least in our culture these gurus are hard to come by and they're even more money. So have you have you found a guru at this point like since you've had this sense that you should find one? No. How long have you been looking? Yeah at least six years and I've actually kind of stopped looking a little bit. So what what does a guru what does that word what does that mean to you what what who is a guru? Currently I'm seeing guru as a part of every individual and less as just a single entity of you know divine creation that we seek out to get answers or guidance. Because I couldn't find it and I realized that hey there's a little bit of guru in everyone and that you know the universe is not to get me just because I haven't found my teacher and that I can be guided and continue my spiritual growth without having my ascended master show me the way. Right yeah I years back somebody told me a definition of the word guru which may or may not be accurate so you know guru breaks down into two syllables and guru I think guru is darkness and then Ru is light and so the guru is actually that which brings you from the darkness to the light. So for a lot of people and it sounds like you know to some extent you know there there's a in the way that you've thought about guru over the past six years there's an identification with like a specific embodied being who has some kind of wisdom or darshan to impart on to you that will that will make you more aware or more enlightened. Right. Yeah. Yeah. It sounds though like what what I'm hearing you say is that you are learning more and more to find that whatever is in front of you in life becomes the the doorway to see from you know to see with greater clarity to see a more enlightened view of what's in front of you. Absolutely and I think that you know for the people around us in our culture we're redefining you know the guidance necessary to live a spiritual life and feel fulfilled because at least for me I found that most of the spiritual guidance available to me I have to pay for and you know as somebody who lives off of a very little income it really makes you redefine you know the ways you think your path should go right yeah how to engage in that and still feel like you're exploring your internal world and coming from the darkness into the light. I want to interrupt you because my mind's got gotten off track just in my mind because I focused on one thing that you were talking about which is the price point because for me that's been a real big factor in my spiritual growth and development and understanding of you know all sorts of things is you know like I I'm not willing to believe that something's really truly holy if they're gonna you know charge me for it feels a little bit too commercial like oh yeah come come here and for 200 or 2,000 or you know whatever your whatever your income bracket is will sell you the truth great you know yeah what what what is what's going on in your life right now that you would say shows you you know like brings brings to mind the presence of of the divine of like that that guru insight for you with what you're doing right now because I know you're working with different animals and what you know what is your experience look like there yeah I think that I'm getting shown through relationships that I'm gold-debating right now and the process of me opening and being vulnerable with new friendships has brought in this you know divine space more than anything right now and that's kind of my leading edge is cultivating these healing relationships where we can practice our different modalities or different philosophies and we just have a space to share and be witnessed and it's fun and and enriching activity that has been nourishing me in that way yeah yeah I mean it sounds like you are you're lucky you it sounds like you're living a life that's got a lot of joy in it and a lot of really good connections that are bringing you that that awareness of the purity and the peace and the love or or and I'm I don't know what does that does that bring anything up to mind for you well I think that I'm starting to it's it feels like I'm just starting to engage yeah in another way and it's interesting because these relationships the majority of our conversations and feelings are around hardships and struggles and you know one interaction that comes to mind is just a space to express anger and frustration yeah and so yeah I feel like I did a little bit of that the other night yeah yeah yeah yeah it's funny you know I think that there's a lot to I don't know what you're bringing up for me right now is the thought of you know how how how how we use our words and how we use our words most often you know it's it's it's commonly you know like we and you know I think it kind of came up for me in mind when we thought you were talking about the way you've been living your life lately and what's been coming to you is gratitude right like if we really and especially when we're talking about discouraging things we really you know take the time to pause and think about all of the many things we could be focused on having gratitude for and I mean really like we could just like start now and just spend the next two hours just like continuously name it every tiny little thing that we can think of to have to be grateful for yeah but when that isn't our primary mode of communication when we aren't living in that in that word space it makes it really easy to forget yeah and it also it kind of yeah like it's like it's a process of self-discovery if you really observe yourself and what comes out of you the most then that provides some clarity into like the frame of mind that you that you're creating a reality I had an experience earlier this year where it really dawned on me the magic that words are and how every time we you know every time we speak every time we're invoking a power with our you know with our with these instruments that we have our mouths and our larynx and right the air that we move yeah I mean I even this conversation I feel that changing my state of consciousness you know right and I think that's part of why I want to have conversations like these is because I believe that you know sharing sharing this kind of thought and insight and connection with people that that this could you know this could potentially reach you know many many years and if only for a moment you know kind of help to shift that consciousness a little bit yeah I do want to go back to the guru yeah and talk a little bit about an experience I've had for four years and kind of honor somebody in my life that in some ways has been that person for me and you know I feel very fortunate to have a guidance a guide that really does really has helped me help me come back to gratitude and helped me you know get some different perspective on my path and allow for some spaciousness and just compassion and and so there yeah I'd say there actually has been somebody that has done that role and I did pay them for it oh and it was you know a mutual exchange where we actually came up with the price that worked for my financial budget and well I'm just about to jump off the edge of my seat so who are you talking about this was Robin oh okay wow yeah yeah Robin landsong so I know a little bit about her but honestly for me the details are not in clarity in my memory and I'm sure lots of people would love to know who is Robin landsong yeah Robin landsong is a friend a healer a person that's walking this earth to share compassion and love to tell her story and to help us all heal from our trauma and come back to our own authentic selves and she has helped me do that in my own life and yeah I guess I really just wanted to honor the the presence that an individual has had in my life and you know I don't think we have ever talked about the guru student relationship per se right but there was elements of somebody who has gone through a lot and has healed a lot and has then instilled that wisdom and healing on to somebody just starting on their healing journey which was me and so yeah that felt kind of akin to that kind of relationship what what what are the key what is the key thing or what are the most important key things to communicate that you have learned from your from your time with Robin or is it something that can't even be put into words it's more of like what you've the way you've shifted your experience and what you embody your I'll walk in there and get on the table and we'll have our session and a sense of patience of healing is a slow process a sense of compassion for where I'm at always comes in and I noticed that my language and outlook on the world comes back to a sense of yeah gratitude and so she is a constant reminder for me that the miracle of healing is ever present and if we slow down enough and be open it can come through well thanks Robin yeah thanks a lot Robin I haven't I haven't met she lives not she looked a couple hours away from here yeah yeah yeah in Olympia and we're in Chimacum Washington which is way out almost to the very northwest edge of Washington yeah well cool thank you for thank you for sharing that yeah I it's funny because I said at the beginning you know that I have an awful lot that I want to say and just the process of having this conversation like I realized like nope not time to talk about like I'm just having a lot of fun with just asking you questions and kind of like helping just get you to get me through the time yeah and also you know because I'm learning I'm learning more about about you yeah through the process so this is kind of a fun experiment for me because I've never actually sat down and just like done an interview off the hip before well I'm I'm glad that we're doing this and thank you for yeah calling me in and yeah yeah I'm really grateful for you Alex and really grateful for your time today and the opportunity like just for me like right now just like this is a lot of fun yeah and I want to knowing how much fun I'm having right now doing this it makes me want to do it more and more and more yeah so hopefully you know maybe I can pull you aside some other time and we can just chat about whatever comes up for me at that point absolutely great cool so